A Realistic View at 2016

[moonslav59]

And what is to be gleaned from this startling data?

 

We have a heck of a lot of players on a pace for wonderful seasons. Hopefully, it will continue and make a difference in the race for the playoffs and then a ring.

 

I'd rather have great numbers than bad ones hoping they turn good overnight.

[Nick]

Has any major league ball club had three OFs with combined salary of less than $2M that's been more productive than our three B's? Talk about value.

 

Watching Xander struggle at the plate should always temper our expectations of him. I'm pretty certain Borass is thinking $300M over 10 years. Pass.

[mvp 78]

Has any major league ball club had three OFs with combined salary of less than $2M that's been more productive than our three B's? Talk about value.

 

Watching Xander struggle at the plate should always temper our expectations of him. I'm pretty certain Borass is thinking $300M over 10 years. Pass.

 

1975 Red Sox.

[sk7326]

Has any major league ball club had three OFs with combined salary of less than $2M that's been more productive than our three B's? Talk about value.

 

Watching Xander struggle at the plate should always temper our expectations of him. I'm pretty certain Borass is thinking $300M over 10 years. Pass.

 

Xander's struggles show that he is not at the super elite level yet - just really darn good. $30M a year for him is not at all unreasonable - the Sox don't have to pay it due to lack of leverage Bogaerts has for now.

 

But honestly, a 5/120 extension would be sensible for both sides. I expect them to try to rope in him or Betts for that sort of deal this offseason.

[Nick]

Xander's struggles show that he is not at the super elite level yet - just really darn good. $30M a year for him is not at all unreasonable - the Sox don't have to pay it due to lack of leverage Bogaerts has for now.

 

But honestly, a 5/120 extension would be sensible for both sides. I expect them to try to rope in him or Betts for that sort of deal this offseason.

 

I'd focus on Betts first.

[Nick]

1975 Red Sox.

 

Who was the 3rd OF? My memory is sketchy..college years....

[mvp 78]

Who was the 3rd OF? My memory is sketchy..college years....

 

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1975&t=BOS

[sk7326]

I'd focus on Betts first.

 

Don't have to choose - and Betts comes a year later anyway. It's a good problem to have. Team's starting 8 is in very good shape.

[Nick]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1975&t=BOS

 

Holy Toledo.....that was a good group

[moonslav59]

Who was the 3rd OF? My memory is sketchy..college years....

 

23 year old Dwight Evans! He was the "vet" of the group after being called up in 1972 as a 20 year old. He won his first GG in 1976, but was a great defender from the start. It took a while for his bat to be a big plus, but in 1975 he managed an .809 OPS. His best hitting years were from 29 years old to 37.

 

23 year old Fred Lynn had been called up late in 1974 within a year after being drafted. He won MVP, ROY and GG in 1975!

 

22 year old Jim Rice was called up late in '74 as well. He finished 5th in MVP and 2nd in ROY.

 

As reserves they had WS hero, Bernie Carbo and 25 year old Juan Beniquez with a .760 OPS. Carbo had a great season too with an .892 OPS in 407 PAs.

[Nick]

Off Topic

 

Can we count on our young players to continue to improve so that we can pass on signing a DH for at least a year? You have Young, Swihart, Leon, Shaw, Hanley, Pedy, Pablo and Moncada to step in and DH. Sox can't afford to make another long term mistake. Pedey would hate it but he needs rest from playing defense. We can't afford to lose him. Why not DH Sandy Leon on his days off behind the plate? This will keep everyone fresh.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Nick

[Maxbialystock]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1975&t=BOS

 

Very impressive. I never saw that outfield play--always stationed where Sox games were not viewable.

[a700hitter]

Very impressive. I never saw that outfield play--always stationed where Sox games were not viewable.

Where were u stationed?

[Dojji]

1975 Red Sox.

 

So you're saying we have our Evans-Lynn-Rice redux in the form of Betts-Bradley-Beni? I'll take that.

[illinoisredsox]

Xander's struggles show that he is not at the super elite level yet - just really darn good. $30M a year for him is not at all unreasonable - the Sox don't have to pay it due to lack of leverage Bogaerts has for now.

 

But honestly, a 5/120 extension would be sensible for both sides. I expect them to try to rope in him or Betts for that sort of deal this offseason.

 

Biggest issue with 2 of the B's is their agent, some guy named Boras.

 

Betts uses somebody else (at least right now)

[moonslav59]

Off Topic

 

Can we count on our young players to continue to improve so that we can pass on signing a DH for at least a year? You have Young, Swihart, Leon, Shaw, Hanley, Pedy, Pablo and Moncada to step in and DH. Sox can't afford to make another long term mistake. Pedey would hate it but he needs rest from playing defense. We can't afford to lose him. Why not DH Sandy Leon on his days off behind the plate? This will keep everyone fresh.

 

I think we can, but with no big FA pitchers available and some funds available, I think we might sign someone that can help at DH or even become our FT DH. I wouldn't go long term on anyone though.

 

3B: Shaw, Moncada, Pablo, Hernandez, Holt, Rutledge

1B: Shaw, Ramirez, Pablo, Holt, Travis

LF: Beni, Young, Holt

DH: whoever doesn't start at 1B, 3B and LF plus maybe Pedey, Leon

 

That's at least 6 quality guys (even as platoons) for 4 slots.

 

I say, use the resources to build up our pen and/or upgrade our 4/5 slot SP'er to a number 1 or 2.

[Dojji]

At this time our 4-5 slot pitchers when everyone's healthy are Pomeranz and E-Rod, either of which can pitch at a #1-2 level for an extended period of time, or at least have done so in the past.

 

This is the thing I like about our rotation. No one is really a lock to pitch brilliantly but every single one of them has done it before.

[Nick]

At this time our 4-5 slot pitchers when everyone's healthy are Pomeranz and E-Rod, either of which can pitch at a #1-2 level for an extended period of time, or at least have done so in the past.

 

This is the thing I like about our rotation. No one is really a lock to pitch brilliantly but every single one of them has done it before.

 

AND NOW Clay B decides to pitch well....he does just enough to get you keep coming back....I think I had a girlfriend like that in high school....

[Dojji]

I am so freaking done with Buchholz. I hope he pitches well enough down the stretch to help us get into the postseason and that some other team is tempted to take a low risk flier on him. I am done with that man, and past done. I am ready to see the team move on. We don't ned him. I don't want him.

[moonslav59]

At this time our 4-5 slot pitchers when everyone's healthy are Pomeranz and E-Rod, either of which can pitch at a #1-2 level for an extended period of time, or at least have done so in the past.

 

The good part about the Pom trade was that we got a solid #3-4 type pitcher that may end up being a 2. His low cost allows us to spend on upgrading elsewhere.

 

His addition also pushed ERod to the 5 slot.

 

I'm a big fan of ERod and Wright, but I think there is a very strong chance one of Pomeranz, ERod or Wright disappoint us next year. There's no way of knowing which one (if any), so it's hard to choose which one to trade for an upgrade. I'd prefer to keep all and still get an ace or solid #2, but that might be hard to do now that Espi has been traded.

 

I'd still like to have Quintana over any of those three, but the upgrade is not nearly as significant as it would have been over Buch/Kelly.

 

I'm not sure we'll even try that hard to get Sale, Quintana or Gray.

 

Johnson and Owens have looked good recently, as has Kopech, so maybe we will skip a rotation upgrade until next July or winter.

[mvp 78]

Biggest issue with 2 of the B's is their agent, some guy named Boras.

 

Betts uses somebody else (at least right now)

 

Who cares about the agent? This FO can pay whoever they want.

[Slasher9]

Who cares about the agent? This FO can pay whoever they want.

Boras is notorious for pressuring his clients to wait for FA.....

[Dojji]

Boras is notorious for pressuring his clients to wait for FA.....

 

Yes, but at the end of the day, Boras is a strawman for everyone who wants to blame agents rather than players when a UFA does not choose to come back. Agents are the perfect low calorie target when we're frustrated that a player won't accept the team's best offer and we don't want to hate the team or the player

 

When a player signs with Boras, it signifies that he wants to maximize his income as a player and make hay while the sun shines, and he considers that more important than the good of whatever franchise happened to draft him. That's not what we as fans want to hear, but we don't want to hate the player, so instead the easy (lazy?) choice is to hate the agent. The real decision-maker here though, is the player, and it's important to remember that.

 

Boras' players can and do ignore his advice and do what's best for themselves and/or the team. All Boras' schtick is really good for is preventing teams from cramming team friendly deals down a player's throat in the name of "being a team player" or some such insipidly patronizing nonsense. If a player wants to re-up, he's the boss and Boras will get him the best deal he can. If a player wants to maximize his value by trying the FA market, and we lose him because someone else decides to pay him what he's worth on the market rather than what our ownership wanted to pay -- I have a hard time fully blaming the agent on that one.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Dojji

[Slasher9]

that's why i said "pressuring". and he's the best at it.

[Dojji]

It's not like it's only the agent applying pressure. The pressude Boras applies is counterpressure to the extreme amount of weight a franchise puts on its players to allow them (the team) to maximize their value for the asset rather than making it easy for players to maximize their own value.

 

I'm not so virulently pro-corporate that I want to dump on agents for doing their jobs, expecially when their jobs are so important to prevent the players' rights from becoming a casualty of the ownership and front office.

[Slasher9]

i never said any of that stuff. i simply was pointing out the fact that the chances are slim that either of the Boras clients sign a LTC prior to FA.....

[S5Dewey]

It's not like it's only the agent applying pressure. The pressude Boras applies is counterpressure to the extreme amount of weight a franchise puts on its players to allow them (the team) to maximize their value for the asset rather than making it easy for players to maximize their own value.

 

I'm not so virulently pro-corporate that I want to dump on agents for doing their jobs, expecially when their jobs are so important to prevent the players' rights from becoming a casualty of the ownership and front office.

 

Wow. This could turn into a long discussion about the economic state of baseball as it pertains to teams, players, and fans. It's difficult for me to visualize "those poor players" or "those poor owners" as being a potential victim in an salary dispute when the Major League minimum salary is ~$500,000/year.

 

I'm torn on the issue of player's salaries. IMO it's ridiculous to even think that if a person today discovered a cure for cancer that he/she still wouldn't make as much money in their lifetime as David Price will make in one year. However, on the flip side of the coin, there's an obscene amount of money out there in major leage baseball, so why shouldn't the players get their slice of the pie?

 

I agree with you to a point about agents. However, players hire agents for the same reason you and I hire doctors, lawyers, and accountants - to give them sound advice. That means that a player should believe that their agent is acting in their best interest, which isn't always the case. The best example I can think of that is Jason Varitek and his relationship with Bora$$. "Tek" was advised to turn down a Red Sox offer and instead go to FA, advice 'tek took, and eventually went crawling back to the Sox - where he wanted to be anyway - for a small portion of what he'd been offered originally. Jason says, thanks, Scott. You *******. :-(

 

While we can say that at the end of the day it's the player's choice as to what they sign for, at the same time they get a lot of pressure from their agent - whom they're paying so they are likely to believe them - to sign for the most money possible. Could that be because agents operate on a commission basis and the more money they can get for a player the more money the agent gets? Naw.

[mvp 78]

i never said any of that stuff. i simply was pointing out the fact that the chances are slim that either of the Boras clients sign a LTC prior to FA.....

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/05/how-stephen-strasburgs-175-million-extension-disproves-a-long-held-belief-about-scott-boras

 

the possibility of long-term extensions for marquee Boras clients should not be automatically dismissed.

[Slasher9]

definitely will happen > might happen > chances are slim > automatically dismissed

[Dojji]

Wow. This could turn into a long discussion about the economic state of baseball as it pertains to teams, players, and fans. It's difficult for me to visualize "those poor players" or "those poor owners" as being a potential victim in an salary dispute when the Major League minimum salary is ~$500,000/year.

 

I'm torn on the issue of player's salaries. IMO it's ridiculous to even think that if a person today discovered a cure for cancer that he/she still wouldn't make as much money in their lifetime as David Price will make in one year. However, on the flip side of the coin, there's an obscene amount of money out there in major leage baseball, so why shouldn't the players get their slice of the pie?

 

I agree with you to a point about agents. However, players hire agents for the same reason you and I hire doctors, lawyers, and accountants - to give them sound advice. That means that a player should believe that their agent is acting in their best interest, which isn't always the case. The best example I can think of that is Jason Varitek and his relationship with Bora$$. "Tek" was advised to turn down a Red Sox offer and instead go to FA, advice 'tek took, and eventually went crawling back to the Sox - where he wanted to be anyway - for a small portion of what he'd been offered originally. Jason says, thanks, Scott. You *******. :-(

 

While we can say that at the end of the day it's the player's choice as to what they sign for, at the same time they get a lot of pressure from their agent - whom they're paying so they are likely to believe them - to sign for the most money possible. Could that be because agents operate on a commission basis and the more money they can get for a player the more money the agent gets? Naw.

 

That issue with Tek happened because Boras screwed up. Everyone screws up from time to time. Boras usually does not screw up. Usually he gets a good deal for his player and earns his commission.

 

We don't like Boras because he takes players we like away from the team. This is because those players are typically worth a great deal of money and can make more money by convincing another team to overpay for them. We all as fans of a team want players to stay with the team until we are done with them. Boras works against that so he gets hated. That's as simple as it gets.