Travis Shaw

[cp176]

The more I think about this, the more I do think that there will certainly be room enough for both of these bats in Boston this year. i love what both players are saying. If we can trust what is coming out of the media, it would be tough to find two players competing for jobs and playing time who had better approaches than these two guys have. If Sandoval proves that he can field his position, I would think that Castillo is going to have to start playing up or he will be the one taking a seat. If this story keeps trending this way, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Shaw winds up in left field.

[cp176]

As I said I don't think the Shaw Sandoval issue has anything to do with Farrell's state of mind or whether he is panicky. I think if he is anxious about his job it has more to do with his team's lousy record the past two years and the fact that is bench coach demonstrated that he can produce better results than Farrell can.

 

BTW Sandoval's being "chunky" has everything to do with his not playing a good defensive 3rd baseman.

 

 

yeah - i was just trying to be nice about that. Pablo's being chunky probably does not have anything to do with his poor fielding but his being grotesquely over weight for a professional athlete might.

Also if this is what farrell does when he is anxious, I am all for it. It might actually lead to him being able to get the job done the right way.

[Dojji]

Can we throw the brakes just a little bit on the Shaw hype? I agree he's hitting well this Spring and hit well last fall, but I think it's a fallacy to pretend he's going to solve all the problems at third base.

 

One of the problems with a player like Sandoval who the fans have no faith in, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of ignoring the faults in the guy who is slated to replace the ones you don't like. Travis Shaw had been groomed as a 1b prospect before this year, he has *very little experience at third base at any level.* Through his career in the minors Shaw averaged less than 30 games a year at that position. He has played more than three times as many games in the minors at first than at third. Before last year third base was largely viewed as a position he should play to advance his athleticism before his move to first base. it's not an exaggeration to say that any plan to keep Shaw at third base as more than a show-me or bench role originated this Spring. It has never been his full time position -- EVER.

 

We have no idea how well Shaw will stand the rigors of third base physically, and whether his body can hold up to the strain of every day at the most athletic corner position. That's a test Kevin Youkilis, who had far more experience at 3B both in the minors and in the majors, and was an excellent part time third basemen failed when the team tried to stretch him out to fulltime 3B. We have no idea how good he will be defensively if he plays 3B every day, or if he can even be trusted to do so. We also have no idea whether the strain of playing 3b every day might impact his bat. None of this do we know, and all of these are very important questions.

 

I think it would be far far better if Pablo turned out to be adequate at the position on both sides of the ball, and Shaw remained in the bench role he's ideally suited for, able to spot someone part time at 3B, part time at 1B, and part time at other positions. We know he can handle that. He has never, not even in the minors, proven he can handle more than that.

[SoxHop]

Can we throw the brakes just a little bit on the Shaw hype? I agree he's hitting well this Spring and hit well last fall, but I think it's a fallacy to pretend he's going to solve all the problems at third base.

 

One of the problems with a player like Sandoval who the fans have no faith in, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of ignoring the faults in the guy who is slated to replace the ones you don't like. Travis Shaw had been groomed as a 1b prospect before this year, he has *very little experience at third base at any level.* Through his career in the minors Shaw averaged less than 30 games a year at that position. He has played more than three times as many games in the minors at first than at third. Before last year third base was largely viewed as a position he should play to advance his athleticism before his move to first base. it's not an exaggeration to say that any plan to keep Shaw at third base as more than a show-me or bench role originated this Spring. It has never been his full time position -- EVER.

 

We have no idea how well Shaw will stand the rigors of third base physically, and whether his body can hold up to the strain of every day at the most athletic corner position. That's a test Kevin Youkilis, who had far more experience at 3B both in the minors and in the majors, and was an excellent part time third basemen failed when the team tried to stretch him out to fulltime 3B. We have no idea how good he will be defensively if he plays 3B every day, or if he can even be trusted to do so. We also have no idea whether the strain of playing 3b every day might impact his bat. None of this do we know, and all of these are very important questions.

 

I think it would be far far better if Pablo turned out to be adequate at the position on both sides of the ball, and Shaw remained in the bench role he's ideally suited for, able to spot someone part time at 3B, part time at 1B, and part time at other positions. We know he can handle that. He has never, not even in the minors, proven he can handle more than that.

 

Good post.

 

Isn't what we saw last year and this spring a major overachievement for him at the plate? I'm not sure I'm sold that he will keep it up. Projections don't believe he can keep it up.

[Dojji]

it is an overachievement, and the smart money is on a regression to the mean this year whether he plays a starting role or not. I would put him in the .750 OPS range this year -- still pretty solid, but not the all star level performance he put up the last half of last season.

[jung]

And what do you do with Pablo who now can't react fast enough to balls, can't get to them once he reacts to them, feeds his 1st basemen Hanley low throws, the one thing other than pop ups that Hanley is struggling to deal with and can't run and can't hit for Power. Pete Abraham's figures on Pablo's base running stats last year are appalling. Why are we trying to shoehorn this guy into a starting spot on this team? He stinks...he stank last year and shows every sign that he is going to stink worse this year.

 

Complaining about what Shaw might be is whistling past the grave yard when you already know what Pablo is.

 

If Pablo beats Shaw out for the job I suspect it will be because the Sox for all their talk will have lowered the bar for Pablo to make it happen. If that does happen then DD better be the guy with his finger on the trigger because Farrell has never been fast on the draw with regard to vet replacement.

Edited March 22, 2016 by jung

[Soxfan1]

In my opinion, Travis Shaw is going to play a big role on this team. Is he going to start based on his spring? No and he shouldn't. The best play is to keep his big bat ready to patch any early season struggles from Castillo and Sandoval, while at the same time lighting a fire under Pablo's and Rusney's asses. Both of them have already been paid handsomely, so whatever motivating factors you can utilize the better.

[a700hitter]

If Shaw keeps raking like he has been this Spring, I think that it will be very difficult to keep his bat out of the lineup, unless he proves inept in the field.

[Soxfan1]

Just a friendly reminder of the last time this discussion was happening:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/19/4242376/jackie-bradley-jr-red-sox-demotion-david-ortiz

[Dojji]

And what do you do with Pablo who now can't react fast enough to balls, can't get to them once he reacts to them, feeds his 1st basemen Hanley low throws, the one thing other than pop ups that Hanley is struggling to deal with and can't run and can't hit for Power. Pete Abraham's figures on Pablo's base running stats last year are appalling. Why are we trying to shoehorn this guy into a starting spot on this team? He stinks...he stank last year and shows every sign that he is going to stink worse this year.

 

Complaining about what Shaw might be is whistling past the grave yard when you already know what Pablo is.

 

If Pablo beats Shaw out for the job I suspect it will be because the Sox for all their talk will have lowered the bar for Pablo to make it happen. If that does happen then DD better be the guy with his finger on the trigger because has never been fast on the draw with regard to vet replacement.

 

 

And you cannot pretend that Pablo being bad makes Shaw good. Shaw is not the antiPablo as much as half this forum is DESPERATE for him to be. It is entirely possible for both of these players to fail miserably!

[a700hitter]

Just a friendly reminder of the last time this discussion was happening:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/19/4242376/jackie-bradley-jr-red-sox-demotion-david-ortiz

Shaw has already had significant success in a prolonged MLB stretch in 2015. He is a much different case than the case of Bradley in March 2013-- who had had no success at the MLB level.

[Bellhorn04]

Just a friendly reminder of the last time this discussion was happening:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/4/19/4242376/jackie-bradley-jr-red-sox-demotion-david-ortiz

 

To me the cautionary tale on Travis Shaw might be Middlebrooks, who raked so well in his first part-season with the Sox, until the pitchers figured out how to pitch him.

[Dojji]

Shaw hit over his head in 2015, no doubt about it. He should hit well enough to be a decent roleplayer. Emphasis on "roleplayer."

[User Name]

To me the cautionary tale on Travis Shaw might be Middlebrooks, who raked so well in his first part-season with the Sox, until the pitchers figured out how to pitch him.

 

Excellent point, at least on timeline. Shaw (and Travis) have a way more refined approach at the plate though.

[a700hitter]

Donut-boy will be waiting in the wings if Shaw turns into a pumpkin. I would go with the red hot hand right now.

[Dojji]

Do you really think that if Sandoval isn't in a position to take the job in April, he'll be in a position to take it in June after months of sitting on the bench?

[a700hitter]

Do you really think that if Sandoval isn't in a position to take the job in April, he'll be in a position to take it in June after months of sitting on the bench?

He has been benched at other times in his career. He makes a tone of money to stay ready to play.

[mvp 78]

Do you really think that if Sandoval isn't in a position to take the job in April, he'll be in a position to take it in June after months of sitting on the bench?

 

Put a treadmill at the end of the bench.

[Dojji]

And if you're not satisfied with how well he meets that obligation now, why do you think you'll be satisfied with how he does it at any other time?

[a700hitter]

And if you're not satisfied with how well he meets that obligation now, why do you think you'll be satisfied with how he does it at any other time?

He would be the safety net. If he can't handle that, then maybe he should have some self respect and retire.

 

When the job was handed to Middlebrooks, there was no safety net.

[jung]

And you cannot pretend that Pablo being bad makes Shaw good. Shaw is not the antiPablo as much as half this forum is DESPERATE for him to be. It is entirely possible for both of these players to fail miserably!

 

And how is this actually meaningful.

 

Here..lets go with an analog:

You already know Pablo is awful. So you want to trade the awful you know for the awful that might be...Sorry...give me the awful that might be.

[mvp 78]

Over the past 12 months, Shaw has shown a ton of upside while Pablo has shown little to none.

[cp176]

Can we throw the brakes just a little bit on the Shaw hype? I agree he's hitting well this Spring and hit well last fall, but I think it's a fallacy to pretend he's going to solve all the problems at third base.

 

One of the problems with a player like Sandoval who the fans have no faith in, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of ignoring the faults in the guy who is slated to replace the ones you don't like. Travis Shaw had been groomed as a 1b prospect before this year, he has *very little experience at third base at any level.* Through his career in the minors Shaw averaged less than 30 games a year at that position. He has played more than three times as many games in the minors at first than at third. Before last year third base was largely viewed as a position he should play to advance his athleticism before his move to first base. it's not an exaggeration to say that any plan to keep Shaw at third base as more than a show-me or bench role originated this Spring. It has never been his full time position -- EVER.

 

We have no idea how well Shaw will stand the rigors of third base physically, and whether his body can hold up to the strain of every day at the most athletic corner position. That's a test Kevin Youkilis, who had far more experience at 3B both in the minors and in the majors, and was an excellent part time third basemen failed when the team tried to stretch him out to fulltime 3B. We have no idea how good he will be defensively if he plays 3B every day, or if he can even be trusted to do so. We also have no idea whether the strain of playing 3b every day might impact his bat. None of this do we know, and all of these are very important questions.

 

I think it would be far far better if Pablo turned out to be adequate at the position on both sides of the ball, and Shaw remained in the bench role he's ideally suited for, able to spot someone part time at 3B, part time at 1B, and part time at other positions. We know he can handle that. He has never, not even in the minors, proven he can handle more than that.

 

You bring up some very relevant points here for sure. They shouldn't and probably won't have any bering with respect to what the Red Sox decide to do with Shaw.

Shaw's story has been a great one but I don't sense anyone being ready to hit him with the next MVP label. You kind of make it sound like those of us who do appreciate his efforts and feel that he should be rewarded for what he has done are not aware of what his shortcomings might be. I don't think that is true at all. It is ok to breathe deeply and to take a step back but in no way should what anyone thinks Shaw might be capable or not capable of doing in the future should impact what he is doing in the present. The best player should get the job. That is how it is supposed to work.

[cp176]

And you cannot pretend that Pablo being bad makes Shaw good. Shaw is not the antiPablo as much as half this forum is DESPERATE for him to be. It is entirely possible for both of these players to fail miserably!

 

All of the fat jokes aside, this debate really is about who is the better player. if Pablo earns the job, I think that it is a safe bet to see that he will get plenty of support from us desperate ones. The better of the two players should get the playing time.

[jonnylongfella]

Shaw is starting to make me think that his success at the end of last season/spring training this year isn't a fluke. The idea of him getting near-daily AB's is growing on me b/c I feel like he could be a force in the lineup.

[cp176]

Shaw is starting to make me think that his success at the end of last season/spring training this year isn't a fluke. The idea of him getting near-daily AB's is growing on me b/c I feel like he could be a force in the lineup.

 

he very well might be a solid player for us for a long time. The issue for me is that if he continues to outplay Sandoval then he should be the one who gets the job. It doesn't have anything to do with contracts or options or what some one thinks he might or might not be in the future. It's about right now. If we want to have the best team that we can have, we should put our best players on the field.

[Spudboy]

Oye.

 

First of all, I saw Shaw speaking about 3rd base yesterday. He said "I always played 3rd base until I got drafted. Then I was moved to first because of higher rated prospects at 3rd."

 

So much for Dojji's revisionist history and overstated doubt.

 

And as Username has pointed out, Shaw has a refined approach at the plate and has already seen how pitchers adapt to him and has continued to develop.

 

Right now, at this moment, Shaw is clearly the better option of the two players competing for the starting 3rd base position.

 

Always put your best players on the field.

 

Unless your intent is to continue losing.

[cp176]

Shaw - Sandoval - Ramirez - Ortiz = Potentially outfield, third base, first base, and dh support and help. Plenty of potential at bats and rest for these guys. This good situation might impact others like Murphy and Castillo.

[jacksonianmarch]

Shaw has the momentum, and he has a coach whose seat is literally on fire right now. So while typically the incumbent with a track record and contract gets the job, I think this kid ends up with it. I think the sox might use this as a motivational tool for Sandoval. Shaw is playing over his head a bit and Sandoval hasn't been motivated. Could this be a Manning/Osweiler situation? Light the fire again by going to the kid, then at the first sign of trouble, turn back to the vet basically telling him it's his last chance, don't f*** it up?

[cp176]

You might be right about Sandoval being a little more motivated. I would say that if this is what it takes, good for the Sox. If this is a change in approach from Farrell, I would say that it is about time as well. I like him but he has been overly committed to large contracted players, slow to react to situations that have called for some sort of action, and in some instances a little complacent. Although it is a great story, this really isn't a Shaw lovefest or an "I hate fatso" thread. It is about playing your best players. Whether it eventually is Sandoval at third, I still think that Shaw will get an ample chance to show whether or not he is going to be an everyday player. I don't think that Dumbrowski is playing any mind games here. It looks very simple - play the players that give you the best chance to win.