Spring training

[cp176]

It's not him. This is Dombrowski's MO. He has that reputation as a young-player trader, but he gives zero f***s about kicking out a veteran for a promising prospect/young player. And he's also not afraid to pull the trigger on a productive but redundant veteran for younger players.

 

I understand that - I shouldn't couch my words. Just spit it out. these adjustments, changes, call them what you will aren't Farrell's. He is close to being done. Louvello(sp) might get a chance be he represents no major change. Dombrowski is in charge. Personally I am ok with it. the good old boys days of lets give them a chance - basically a half a season- might be gone. Imagine that you have to earn your paycheck. Job security doesn't get guaranteed when signing the fat contract. Sandoval actually is starting to look alive now that he figured out he might on the outside looking in. Far as I'm concerned, Dumbrowski looks like he gets it. He operates in the real world.

[Kimmi]

It is never the intent of any outing in Spring Training to give up a bunch of Home Runs. Whatever Kelly was working on, he wasn't executing if opposing hitters took him deep 3 times.

 

At this juncture of Spring Training, the intent is for the starting pitchers to go 5 or 6 innings. Kelly had trouble getting through 4.

 

Of course it is never the intent of a pitcher to give up a bunch of home runs. However, the home runs in and of themselves aren't necessarily a cause for alarm, depending on what the intent was.

[Kimmi]

I know spring training games don't mean much, but this year seems to have been especially dreary for Sox fans. Not much to cheer about.

 

It's all in the way you choose to look at things Bell.

[Kimmi]

Yup. And it does not matter what the plan was for today's pitcher. It was likely his last start before the season starts or at least close to it. He should be on his game by now and consistently do the things he needs to do to be successful.

 

But I guess it's not cool to point out poor performance or a manager saying sugar coated nonsense to the media.

 

Maybe I expect too much after living in a major league city for 50 years.

 

You can point out whatever you want to point out.

 

I just wonder why some people are so quick to point out anything negative, but hardly take notice when the same player does something positive.

 

Kelly has arguably been our best pitcher in spring training. He has had several good outings leading up to yesterday. All pitchers, even aces, have less than stellar outings from time to time.

 

I realize that Kelly has historically been inconsistent. I realize that he has a long way to go before he's shown that he can remain consistently good for a sustained period. But if you're going to put a lot of stock into his spring training outings, why not consider all the very good outings he has had?

[Kimmi]

The intent was to continue to stretch out, and get batters out.

 

If He was out there working on one or more things that are not where they should be at the end of camp then he and the Sox season are f***ed.

 

I'm just glad you didn't tell me to go poop in my hat.

[sk7326]

Aside the scores and the stats, I think some young players try to make a case here in order to be considered in the final roster. Others just try to improve some fundamentals, others try to improve/practice stuff that usually are not that good at, others just try to get rhythm, others try to make the opening day game when there's internal competition for a spot, etc.

BL. I think ST could be useful depending on what a team/coach/player need.

 

Players do work on all of that, but I think most of that takes place on the practice field. It's why the players were grateful that Will Ferrell showed up to make the Cactus League games a bit less dull. It's like football preseason - most of the evaluations take place during workouts.

[Kimmi]

Are you sure? What if it's just throw X fastballs, Y curves, whatever. Are they gameplanning hitters, changing stuff 2nd time through? I am not pleased - but spring training means virtually nothing aside from some income for some towns in Florida/Arizona. If his job was to get the work in, make a number of each kind of pitch - I don't think anything happened to impact that one way or the other. It's not like they are using advance scouts here.

 

You are the man. That is all.

[Kimmi]

I understand that - I shouldn't couch my words. Just spit it out. these adjustments, changes, call them what you will aren't Farrell's. He is close to being done. Louvello(sp) might get a chance be he represents no major change. Dombrowski is in charge. Personally I am ok with it. the good old boys days of lets give them a chance - basically a half a season- might be gone. Imagine that you have to earn your paycheck. Job security doesn't get guaranteed when signing the fat contract. Sandoval actually is starting to look alive now that he figured out he might on the outside looking in. Far as I'm concerned, Dumbrowski looks like he gets it. He operates in the real world.

 

Dombrowski's philosophy might work out, but just remember that patience is a virtue. Quite a few mistakes are made when managers/GMs make rash decisions or don't have patience with a player.

 

How many people were saying Papi was finished about 5 years ago when he got off to that horrendously slow start? Most people wanted him benched or DFA'd. How many people were saying that Pedroia was not going to cut it when he got off to his horrendously bad start his rookie season? Thank goodness we had a manager and a GM who had the patience to give them a chance.

[Bellhorn04]

It's all in the way you choose to look at things Bell.

 

Oh sure. I'm just getting kind of a bad vibe, and frankly I think it's mostly because of Farrell and his shaky status.

[cp176]

Dombrowski's philosophy might work out, but just remember that patience is a virtue. Quite a few mistakes are made when managers/GMs make rash decisions or don't have patience with a player.

 

How many people were saying Papi was finished about 5 years ago when he got off to that horrendously slow start? Most people wanted him benched or DFA'd. How many people were saying that Pedroia was not going to cut it when he got off to his horrendously bad start his rookie season? Thank goodness we had a manager and a GM who had the patience to give them a chance.

 

I certainly have learned the value of being patient throughout the years. It is a virtue. I also believe that each situation presents a very different approach on occasion. Being patient and maybe overly patient with players like Ortiz and Pedroia is much different to showing patience toward players like Sandoval, Porcello, Ramirez, and Castillo. Ramirez gets a pass form me right now based on his performance - the others not so much. I do believe that the time seems to have come when a sort of changing of the guard was (is) a good thing. I supported those signings because I am a fan but I did not like any of them. They looked like a waste of money that could have addressed real needs by moving in a different direction. For the record, I really don't care who the GM was or is, I think that they are given far too much credit and far too much blame in most instances. The product on the field is what matters most to me. Looks as though the changes are just starting.

[User Name]

You can point out whatever you want to point out.

 

I just wonder why some people are so quick to point out anything negative, but hardly take notice when the same player does something positive.

 

Kelly has arguably been our best pitcher in spring training. He has had several good outings leading up to yesterday. All pitchers, even aces, have less than stellar outings from time to time.

 

I realize that Kelly has historically been inconsistent. I realize that he has a long way to go before he's shown that he can remain consistently good for a sustained period. But if you're going to put a lot of stock into his spring training outings, why not consider all the very good outings he has had?

 

This.....is actually a very fair point.

 

The problem (in Spudboy's case) is that his argument isn't about Kelly himself, but rather Farrell's penchant to paint a peachy picture when a guy gets hammered (being ST or regular season). In the regular season, it's a fair gripe, in ST, it's just picking at nits. Also, saying Francona didn't do it is wearing rose colored hindsight glasses. He did it. Just not as much as Farrell.

[User Name]

Dombrowski's philosophy might work out, but just remember that patience is a virtue. Quite a few mistakes are made when managers/GMs make rash decisions or don't have patience with a player.

 

How many people were saying Papi was finished about 5 years ago when he got off to that horrendously slow start? Most people wanted him benched or DFA'd. How many people were saying that Pedroia was not going to cut it when he got off to his horrendously bad start his rookie season? Thank goodness we had a manager and a GM who had the patience to give them a chance.

 

The GM was Theo Epstein, the manager Terry Francona. Remember that most of the criticism is directed at the Cherington/Farrell tandem. Unfairly to Cherington for the most part, but Farrell is a whole other ballgame.

[Dojji]

Francona was an extremely patient manager and his patience and nerves of steel rewarded us with 2 rings. He generally avoided panic moves and tended to push back against a GM who wanted to make them, preferring to trust his players to work things out on the field. That bore fruit as often as not, I'll give you the example of Dustin Pedroia who started out very VERY cold before putting on the laser show in his rookie season. The panic move would have been to swap roles and ride Alex Cora, who was super hot at the time, and sit Pedey for a few weeks until Cora cooled down. Instead, Cora did get some extra playing time because he was murdering the baseball, but Pedroia was never out of the lineup for multiple days in a row.

 

It's one of the things I was actually very pleased with about Tito, his ability to judge how much adjustment is necessary and how much is overadjustment. A lot of our more panicky fans considered him to be asleep at the switch at times, and the "Francoma" nickname stuck, but that's because there's times when the smartest move is to make no move.

 

What I'm worried about right now, is that there are a few situations where the smartest move is no move right now, and leadership's already getting twitchy. I'll give the example of Rusney castillo in left field which has not had the time to gel or give any positive answer about whether it will or will not work longterm, and they're already talking about a Young-Holt platoon. It's way too early for that. Some things do need to be tried under live fire before you know whether they will or will not work -- Castillo in left being one of them. it's one thing to light a fire under a rookie and another to leave them in perennial doubt whether they'll be on the lineup card tomorrow. The latter just stresses them out for no good reason, especially while they're still figuring it out, and make no mistake, castillo is still figuring it out.

 

Give Castillo a good 2-3 week experiment this April, before rushing to judgment -- do have a plan on hand for what you're going to do if it fails but don't be a prat and make it public and add pressure to a guy who's still learning on the job how to play at the big league level..

[User Name]

Francona was an extremely patient manager and his patience and nerves of steel rewarded us with 2 rings. He generally avoided panic moves and tended to push back against a GM who wanted to make them, preferring to trust his players to work things out on the field. That bore fruit as often as not, I'll give you the example of Dustin Pedroia who started out very VERY cold before putting on the laser show in his rookie season. The panic move would have been to swap roles and ride Alex Cora, who was super hot at the time, and sit Pedey for a few weeks until Cora cooled down. Instead, Cora did get some extra playing time because he was murdering the baseball, but Pedroia was never out of the lineup for multiple days in a row.

 

It's one of the things I was actually very pleased with about Tito, his ability to judge how much adjustment is necessary and how much is overadjustment. A lot of our more panicky fans considered him to be asleep at the switch at times, and the "Francoma" nickname stuck, but that's because there's times when the smartest move is to make no move.

 

What I'm worried about right now, is that there are a few situations where the smartest move is no move right now, and leadership's already getting twitchy. I'll give the example of Rusney castillo in left field which has not had the time to gel or give any positive answer about whether it will or will not work longterm, and they're already talking about a Young-Holt platoon. It's way too early for that. Some things do need to be tried under live fire before you know whether they will or will not work -- Castillo in left being one of them. it's one thing to light a fire under a rookie and another to leave them in perennial doubt whether they'll be on the lineup card tomorrow. The latter just stresses them out for no good reason, especially while they're still figuring it out, and make no mistake, castillo is still figuring it out.

 

Give Castillo a good 2-3 week experiment this April, before rushing to judgment -- do have a plan on hand for what you're going to do if it fails but don't be a prat and make it public and add pressure to a guy who's still learning on the job how to play at the big league level..

 

A+ post. I had not opined on the Castillo issue, but that's exactly what I think. Could not have said it better myself.

[mvp 78]

A+ post. I had not opined on the Castillo issue, but that's exactly what I think. Could not have said it better myself.

 

Except that they have seen him day in and day out for a year and a half. They clearly don't like what they see and are moving on. Sure, we can say "oh let's give him a shot," but ultimately we know .0001% of what those guys do. It seems like they are cutting bait and don't believe he'll ever figure it out. We're talking about a 29 year old, not some 24 year old who still has room for growth. Castillo is who he is and they don't seem to like it much.

[User Name]

Except that they have seen him day in and day out for a year and a half. They clearly don't like what they see and are moving on. Sure, we can say "oh let's give him a shot," but ultimately we know .0001% of what those guys do. It seems like they are cutting bait and don't believe he'll ever figure it out. We're talking about a 29 year old, not some 24 year old who still has room for growth. Castillo is who he is and they don't seem to like it much.

 

That's a valid argument, and one I've made many times myself. However, there's a major investment made in Castillo and significant roster implications to moving Holt to a nearly everyday gig in LF. It's not a black and white issue. I actually think playing Murphy (I think they could still add him) is a better idea than moving Holt out of his super-sub job. The production would be similar either ways.

[mvp 78]

That's a valid argument, and one I've made many times myself. However, there's a major investment made in Castillo and significant roster implications to moving Holt to a nearly everyday gig in LF. It's not a black and white issue. I actually think playing Murphy (I think they could still add him) is a better idea than moving Holt out of his super-sub job. The production would be similar either ways.

 

I think Holt will still be the main super-sub, just that when he's not subbing in he will have a position available to him.

 

With Castillo, it was about spending $$$ on a prospect/lottery ticket. If it worked out, great. If it didn't work out, at least they didn't spend all that time training him and it's just money anyway. Basically, they were saying "we don't have ANY OF prospects right now, we need to pay to get one in here. This guy has a high upside and is athletic enough that he could be replacement level at the very least."

[User Name]

I think Holt will still be the main super-sub, just that when he's not subbing in he will have a position available to him.

 

With Castillo, it was about spending $$$ on a prospect/lottery ticket. If it worked out, great. If it didn't work out, at least they didn't spend all that time training him and it's just money anyway. Basically, they were saying "we don't have ANY OF prospects right now, we need to pay to get one in here. This guy has a high upside and is athletic enough that he could be replacement level at the very least."

 

And who lnows? Maybe they can still get something out of him, but I agree he looks like a deer in headlights out there.

[mvp 78]

And who lnows? Maybe they can still get something out of him, but I agree he looks like a deer in headlights out there.

 

If they thought that, he'd be in LF on opening day. He's toast. Stick a fork in him. To them, he's a 5th OF.

[sk7326]

Francona was an extremely patient manager and his patience and nerves of steel rewarded us with 2 rings. He generally avoided panic moves and tended to push back against a GM who wanted to make them, preferring to trust his players to work things out on the field. That bore fruit as often as not, I'll give you the example of Dustin Pedroia who started out very VERY cold before putting on the laser show in his rookie season. The panic move would have been to swap roles and ride Alex Cora, who was super hot at the time, and sit Pedey for a few weeks until Cora cooled down. Instead, Cora did get some extra playing time because he was murdering the baseball, but Pedroia was never out of the lineup for multiple days in a row.

 

It's one of the things I was actually very pleased with about Tito, his ability to judge how much adjustment is necessary and how much is overadjustment. A lot of our more panicky fans considered him to be asleep at the switch at times, and the "Francoma" nickname stuck, but that's because there's times when the smartest move is to make no move.

 

What I'm worried about right now, is that there are a few situations where the smartest move is no move right now, and leadership's already getting twitchy. I'll give the example of Rusney castillo in left field which has not had the time to gel or give any positive answer about whether it will or will not work longterm, and they're already talking about a Young-Holt platoon. It's way too early for that. Some things do need to be tried under live fire before you know whether they will or will not work -- Castillo in left being one of them. it's one thing to light a fire under a rookie and another to leave them in perennial doubt whether they'll be on the lineup card tomorrow. The latter just stresses them out for no good reason, especially while they're still figuring it out, and make no mistake, castillo is still figuring it out.

 

Give Castillo a good 2-3 week experiment this April, before rushing to judgment -- do have a plan on hand for what you're going to do if it fails but don't be a prat and make it public and add pressure to a guy who's still learning on the job how to play at the big league level..

 

I agree with every syllable of this ...

 

Indeed, when Spud was getting upset about John Farrell feeding us pablum - this is EXACTLY why, and part of why Tito was/is an excellent manager. It is a corporate thing to say - since we're baseball fans and raised to think of managers as like the dude in Major League - but a huge part of the job is being able to stand in front of the mikes, crack a few jokes, say the player is doing exactly what we expect from him, and then get back to work. I always noted that Francona's experience managing in Philadelphia, as well as being Michael Jordan's baseball manager, and the media savvy required accordingly - were VERY significant plusses and big reasons Epstein hired him.

 

I don't care what the manager tells me - we have fangraphs, box scores, and whatever the girfriend of Jung's Uber driver is telling him for that - it's what he is telling his players that matters. What Castillo needs now - and what Jackie Bradley and Xander Bogaerts needed in 2014, was a manager (and management in general) who was going to stand behind their analysis and just let the reps and hours logged happen.

[Station 13]

There is little to no mystery left in Castillo. He isn't an everyday player. He sucks this spring. Approaching age 30, he's is what he is, a bench player.

[Dojji]

I agree with every syllable of this ...

 

Indeed, when Spud was getting upset about John Farrell feeding us pablum - this is EXACTLY why, and part of why Tito was/is an excellent manager. It is a corporate thing to say - since we're baseball fans and raised to think of managers as like the dude in Major League - but a huge part of the job is being able to stand in front of the mikes, crack a few jokes, say the player is doing exactly what we expect from him, and then get back to work. I always noted that Francona's experience managing in Philadelphia, as well as being Michael Jordan's baseball manager, and the media savvy required accordingly - were VERY significant plusses and big reasons Epstein hired him.

 

I don't care what the manager tells me - we have fangraphs, box scores, and whatever the girfriend of Jung's Uber driver is telling him for that - it's what he is telling his players that matters. What Castillo needs now - and what Jackie Bradley and Xander Bogaerts needed in 2014, was a manager (and management in general) who was going to stand behind their analysis and just let the reps and hours logged happen.

 

And be prepared to sit there and take the unpopularity that would follow from the twitchy, unreasonable, panicky, short sighted mass of ignorant humanity that makes up nearly all of a fanbased and occasionally sits in upper management too.

[Spudboy]

Of course it is never the intent of a pitcher to give up a bunch of home runs. However, the home runs in and of themselves aren't necessarily a cause for alarm, depending on what the intent was.

 

True. But he did pitch poorly. And after leading the staff all spring with a 1.35 era it was a disappointment to see him get lit -up that way. All pitchers have an occasional hiccup now and then. But one of Kelly's two problems as a starter is that he has never shown consistency from start to start. So this outing is disconcerting to me and obviously to some other fans.

 

Personally, I have a hunch that Kelly will have a good season. I just hope that he remains healthy and that the Sox give him a regular blow so he does not wear out.

[a700hitter]

Are you sure? What if it's just throw X fastballs, Y curves, whatever. Are they gameplanning hitters, changing stuff 2nd time through? I am not pleased - but spring training means virtually nothing aside from some income for some towns in Florida/Arizona. If his job was to get the work in, make a number of each kind of pitch - I don't think anything happened to impact that one way or the other. It's not like they are using advance scouts here.

He still was not executing even if the plan was just to throw fastballs or curves or whatevever. He was apparently getting too much of the plate with those pitches. Also, in your effort to make excuses, you are neglecting to realize the stage of Spring Training. We are at the end of camp. Pitchers are not still working on one pitch or another. They are trying to stretch out and get a feel for all of their pitches.

[jung]

People concentrate on Castillo's poor performance on FB's without being well enough versed to understand where it comes from. Castillo swings early in counts at any FB he sees because he can't even SEE breaking balls. His bat is a foot away from any breaking ball thrown anywhere in the strike zone. He knows it but can't do anything about it other than swing at FB's early in counts.

 

Any other 28-29 year old that was this feeble against breaking stuff is GONE from MLB. He is in the Sox organization because what else is there for them to do. Nobody is going to take him. But he should not be up because if he has any chance at all at the ML level he needs tons of AB's and for him even a AAA breaking ball is a challenge. Send him down so he gets his AB's and see what happens. Heck he might even learn how to run bases down there because he can't do that worth s*** either.

 

Should have kept Murphy. That was dumb as dirt and suggests DD has orders to do whatever he can to move Castillo this year. Good luck with that!

[a700hitter]

You can point out whatever you want to point out.

 

I just wonder why some people are so quick to point out anything negative, but hardly take notice when the same player does something positive.

 

Kelly has arguably been our best pitcher in spring training. He has had several good outings leading up to yesterday. All pitchers, even aces, have less than stellar outings from time to time.

 

I realize that Kelly has historically been inconsistent. I realize that he has a long way to go before he's shown that he can remain consistently good for a sustained period. But if you're going to put a lot of stock into his spring training outings, why not consider all the very good outings he has had?

I am optimistic that he will make a run at the Cy Young Award.

[a700hitter]

Oh sure. I'm just getting kind of a bad vibe, and frankly I think it's mostly because of Farrell and his shaky status.

It can't be worse than the last 2 seasons --can it?

[a700hitter]

Except that they have seen him day in and day out for a year and a half. They clearly don't like what they see and are moving on. Sure, we can say "oh let's give him a shot," but ultimately we know .0001% of what those guys do. It seems like they are cutting bait and don't believe he'll ever figure it out. We're talking about a 29 year old, not some 24 year old who still has room for growth. Castillo is who he is and they don't seem to like it much.

No one knew about this guy when he signed. He was a mystery commodity. Ben bought the hype at an extremely high price without knowing what he was getting, and it looks like he got burned.

[a700hitter]

And who lnows? Maybe they can still get something out of him, but I agree he looks like a deer in headlights out there.

Maybe he can be packaged with Panda and a pile of cash for a pitcher.

[a700hitter]

Elias is optioned to Pawtucket so Barnes and Ramirez make the roster.