The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[mvp 78]

Remember guys, it took approximately 8.33333 other guys to fail in 2013 before they hit the Koji jackpot!!! Can't give Ben or Farrell there. They didn't really know what they had in him!

[SoxHop]

Remember guys, it took approximately 8.33333 other guys to fail in 2013 before they hit the Koji jackpot!!! Can't give Ben or Farrell there. They didn't really know what they had in him!

 

ahahahah....... I've never seen a man more ready for baseball than yourself........ I hear you........ me too......... I'm ready to get this thing going......

[jung]

You can always tell when we are getting close. These threads peter out and nobody has the strength to replace them with anything worth the effort to key them in.

[Bellhorn04]

I loved J.D. Drew until he would tweak something. No matter how minor the tweak, even mere tightness meant buh bye for 2-3 weeks.

 

But as a guy on another forum used to point out, he would never go on the DL. (Up until his last year with us anyway.)

 

Ah, J. D. Drew...I think it's true he was an underachiever, but when he was in the lineup and on his game, he was a very talented ballplayer who helped you win games.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

Remember guys, it took approximately 8.33333 other guys to fail in 2013 before they hit the Koji jackpot!!! Can't give Ben or Farrell there. They didn't really know what they had in him!

 

LOL, excellent.

[mvp 78]

ahahahah....... I've never seen a man more ready for baseball than yourself........ I hear you........ me too......... I'm ready to get this thing going......

 

I'm already getting upset about Angel Hernandez.

[a700hitter]

But as a guy on another forum used to point out, he would never go on the DL. (Up until his last year with us anyway.)

 

Ah, J. D. Drew...I think it's true he was an underachiever, but when he was in the lineup and on his game, he was a very talented ballplayer who helped you win games.

He was tremendously talented in every phase of his game.

[Kimmi]

Remember guys, it took approximately 8.33333 other guys to fail in 2013 before they hit the Koji jackpot!!! Can't give Ben or Farrell there. They didn't really know what they had in him!

 

Ben gets credit for building a BP with depth.

[mvp 78]

Jenks and Miller provided a great depth to the DL that year!

[Kimmi]

I read a good article this morning on the rise of Fangraphs. I remember when I first started quoting Fangraphs back in 2009, most other posters joked their writers, making comments like how they must be on crack. People thought these guys were crazy. They've come a long way.

 

“It was probably a pretty nutty idea at the time,” he said. But in 2015, FanGraphs, which Appelman runs from his Arlington apartment, averaged roughly one million unique users per month, users who accounted for about 13 million page views, he said. And these are some of baseball’s most engaged readers, spending an inordinate amount of time poring over the statistics and analysis available — including regular visits from front office members of nearly every major league club. One number Appelman has been using recently: Last year, FanGraphs users spent more than 300 years of total time on the site.

 

Good job to the fine folks not only at Fangraphs, but also at Baseball Prospectus, and The Hardball Times.

[Kimmi]

And just because I'm bored, I think it is time to thank Ben once again for the great shape of our farm system.

[mvp 78]

And to thank him for consecutive seasons of horrible baseball. Bonus points for Hanley and Panda!

[Dojji]

Not sure that's Cherington's fault per se. If you look at the trend of the last several years, 13 stands out as an obvious fluke, and our core has declined seriously since then, IMHO that decline began in 2008, although it didn't really start to hurt us until 09. We've been heading steadily downhill on a purely talent based analysis ever since.

 

Cherington had a good long term strategy for turning things around that would have worked in a smaller market but he didn't have the time to get them to fruition in Boston because ownership tends to panic with only one bad year, and Cherington's long term loading up strategy would have cost us maybe as many as 4.

 

What ownership wanted was a 1 year turnaround. However the pieces were not there to get things done in the offseason last year. Forced by panicky ownership to spend money, with only bad pieces on the market Cherington did what you would expect with that set of instructions, spent money on bad pieces. Not sure it's his fault when it was clearly what he was instructed to do in the first place. And I think his long term strategy will give us some good players in the next 2-3 years to augment what Dombrowski does with the big league roster (which is more Dombrowski's thing)

Edited February 15, 2016 by Dojji

[cp176]

And just because I'm bored, I think it is time to thank Ben once again for the great shape of our farm system.

 

Wow - you had to do it didn't you. You must be bored! Trying to give one person too much credit or too much blame for the decisions relating to baseball in this organization is really kind of pointless. John Henry being the exception here I think it takes a whole group of people working hard to make either the right or wrong moves. General Managers come and go kind of like principals in a school. Obviously they are on the frontline but more often than not the real power does not lie soley in their hands. Good job Ben - see ya . Hello DD - off to a great start.

[User Name]

Not sure that's Cherington's fault per se. If you look at the trend of the last several years, 13 stands out as an obvious fluke, and our core has declined seriously since then, IMHO that decline began in 2008, although it didn't really start to hurt us until 09. We've been heading steadily downhill on a purely talent based analysis ever since.

 

Cherington had a good long term strategy for turning things around that would have worked in a smaller market but he didn't have the time to get them to fruition in Boston because ownership tends to panic with only one bad year, and Cherington's long term loading up strategy would have cost us maybe as many as 4.

 

What ownership wanted was a 1 year turnaround. However the pieces were not there to get things done in the offseason last year. Forced by panicky ownership to spend money, with only bad pieces on the market Cherington did what you would expect with that set of instructions, spent money on bad pieces. Not sure it's his fault when it was clearly what he was instructed to do in the first place. And I think his long term strategy will give us some good players in the next 2-3 years to augment what Dombrowski does with the big league roster (which is more Dombrowski's thing)

 

Calling 2013 a fluke is, at best, intellectually dishonest, and at worst, an outright lie. They had some luck and health, but it was a championship caliber team with several ifs. That the ifs were answered positively is a staple of championship teams.

[Dojji]

But so many ifs were answered positively, it's not quite unprecedented, but I think "fluke" is the right word when we got good results on all of our questionmarks that year. We gambled on so many different levels and got so many more positive results from those gambles than one could reasonably expect that I think you can't conclude that 2013 was anything other than a fluke, especially when you compare it to all the seasons around it.

 

Highlights to this are the positive results on Stephen Drew, John Lackey, Koji Uehara, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, and of all people Clay Buchholz who gave us the best half season he ever has given us that year. Also featured prominently were a career year from Shane Victorino and the last year of effectiveness from both Johnny Gomes and Daniel Nava.

 

That was also the last year that Dustin Pedroia played a full season, the only truly great year we got out of Mike Napoli, and the last year David Ortiz crossed the .950 OPS threshhold.

 

Yeah, I'd say "fluke" is a fully appropriate term for the 2013 season for the Boston Red Sox and you're full of very hot air if you want to try to pretend otherwise.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Dojji

[User Name]

Then 2012 and 2014 are also flukes, because it's almost impossible for so much stuff to go wrong, yet I don't see you calling them "flukes" anywhere on your post. Be consistent.

[cp176]

I don't know about the choice of words but a great deal had to go right for 2013 to turn out like it did. I truly believe that overall team chemistry had as much to do with it as anything. Put a bunch of well paid, motivated, hard working team first players in a room together and good things will happen. Throw in the kind of luck that any team might need to win a championship and it all just seemed to come together. Divine intervention perhaps. I don't think many people saw it coming.

[Kimmi]

And to thank him for consecutive seasons of horrible baseball. Bonus points for Hanley and Panda!

 

He says you're welcome.

[Kimmi]

Not sure that's Cherington's fault per se. If you look at the trend of the last several years, 13 stands out as an obvious fluke, and our core has declined seriously since then, IMHO that decline began in 2008, although it didn't really start to hurt us until 09. We've been heading steadily downhill on a purely talent based analysis ever since.

 

Cherington had a good long term strategy for turning things around that would have worked in a smaller market but he didn't have the time to get them to fruition in Boston because ownership tends to panic with only one bad year, and Cherington's long term loading up strategy would have cost us maybe as many as 4.

 

What ownership wanted was a 1 year turnaround. However the pieces were not there to get things done in the offseason last year. Forced by panicky ownership to spend money, with only bad pieces on the market Cherington did what you would expect with that set of instructions, spent money on bad pieces. Not sure it's his fault when it was clearly what he was instructed to do in the first place. And I think his long term strategy will give us some good players in the next 2-3 years to augment what Dombrowski does with the big league roster (which is more Dombrowski's thing)

 

I don't agree that 2013 was a fluke, but I think your last two paragraphs are spot on.

 

It is difficult to rebuild the farm while trying to keep the team competitive at the same time. I've said many times that I wish Henry could have shown a little more patience with Ben. We are just starting to see his long term vision come to fruition.

[Kimmi]

Wow - you had to do it didn't you. You must be bored! Trying to give one person too much credit or too much blame for the decisions relating to baseball in this organization is really kind of pointless. John Henry being the exception here I think it takes a whole group of people working hard to make either the right or wrong moves. General Managers come and go kind of like principals in a school. Obviously they are on the frontline but more often than not the real power does not lie soley in their hands. Good job Ben - see ya . Hello DD - off to a great start.

 

It's no secret what Ben's philosophy behind building a team was. It's no secret that he had a long term vision of building a strong farm system and that he was hesitant to trade away many of his top prospects. I know that you're glad to see Ben go. That's fine, but give credit where credit is due.

 

For someone who thinks it's pointless to give give too much credit to one person, you seem very willing to sing Dombrowski's praises.

[Kimmi]

Then 2012 and 2014 are also flukes, because it's almost impossible for so much stuff to go wrong, yet I don't see you calling them "flukes" anywhere on your post. Be consistent.

 

IMO, there was more stuff that went wrong in each of 2012, 2014, and 2015 than went right in 2013.

[cp176]

It's no secret what Ben's philosophy behind building a team was. It's no secret that he had a long term vision of building a strong farm system and that he was hesitant to trade away many of his top prospects. I know that you're glad to see Ben go. That's fine, but give credit where credit is due.

 

For someone who thinks it's pointless to give give too much credit to one person, you seem very willing to sing Dombrowski's praises.

 

I think that you seriously believe what you just wrote - that is sad. Ben does not deserve all of the credit that you think he does. It is a team game with a team approach. I hope Dombrowski gets the job done. For the record I am not singing his praises. I admire anyone who has your sense of loyalty even though unless he is a family member i don't get it. Was it the see ya that bugged you? Good job helping to build the farm ben - good luck dd. That's all I got.

[Kimmi]

I think that you seriously believe what you just wrote - that is sad. Ben does not deserve all of the credit that you think he does. It is a team game with a team approach. I hope Dombrowski gets the job done. For the record I am not singing his praises. I admire anyone who has your sense of loyalty even though unless he is a family member i don't get it. Was it the see ya that bugged you? Good job helping to build the farm ben - good luck dd. That's all I got.

 

I realize that Ben is not working alone in the FO. I realize that Ben does not get full credit for anything. However, he deserves a lot more credit and a lot less blame than he gets. What's sad is not being able to see that.

[a700hitter]

He is given too much credit just by the fact that we are still talking about him. Goodbye and good luck. He is no longer a factor, so he doesn't matter.

[cp176]

I realize that Ben is not working alone in the FO. I realize that Ben does not get full credit for anything. However, he deserves a lot more credit and a lot less blame than he gets. What's sad is not being able to see that.

 

If you are referring to me, I give him plenty of credit for the job that he did. I'm just not going to place him on any type of pedestal. He was a role player in a truly great organization. I really don't think that he was any better or any worse than others before him. Actually on this forum Ben's career has taken on the proverbial life of its own. His accomplishments or lack thereof are not very important to me. By the way - my opinion- I think that he gets plenty of credit for his accomplishments from most of us. Once again though if you are going to critique him, you have to consider the whole body of work.

[Dojji]

IMO, there was more stuff that went wrong in each of 2012, 2014, and 2015 than went right in 2013.

I disagree, I think the reverse is actually true. Those three bad years are marked by ever declining offenses and rotations that had become less and less dependable. That's a bad combination no matter how you dress it up. THe rotation we had by 2012 couldn't hold a candle to the one we'd used to win in 2007, and 2013 only looked better because John Lackey finally managed to pull his act together.

 

This roster has been eroding steadily for years, that's on Theo not ben. And it's going to take more than 1-2 offseasons to fix that kind of entropy.

[SoxnCycles]

And just because I'm bored, I think it is time to thank Ben once again for the great shape of our farm system.

 

Good job trolling the old fools. LOL

They can't help themselves...

[sk7326]

Not sure that's Cherington's fault per se. If you look at the trend of the last several years, 13 stands out as an obvious fluke, and our core has declined seriously since then, IMHO that decline began in 2008, although it didn't really start to hurt us until 09. We've been heading steadily downhill on a purely talent based analysis ever since.

 

Cherington had a good long term strategy for turning things around that would have worked in a smaller market but he didn't have the time to get them to fruition in Boston because ownership tends to panic with only one bad year, and Cherington's long term loading up strategy would have cost us maybe as many as 4.

 

What ownership wanted was a 1 year turnaround. However the pieces were not there to get things done in the offseason last year. Forced by panicky ownership to spend money, with only bad pieces on the market Cherington did what you would expect with that set of instructions, spent money on bad pieces. Not sure it's his fault when it was clearly what he was instructed to do in the first place. And I think his long term strategy will give us some good players in the next 2-3 years to augment what Dombrowski does with the big league roster (which is more Dombrowski's thing)

 

2008? When they were 7 innings from the AL pennant?

 

Here's what happened. From 2002 to 2013 this team had an amazing successful run. Only the Yankees and Cardinals can lay any sort of claim to that title. The Red Sox managed to turn the roster over so that multiple "generations" were involved with the titles. 2012 is easy to dismiss since literally everything that could have gone wrong did (some of it self inflicted, such as hiring a boor to manage them). 2014 and 2015 deserve answers - mostly because (I think) the team has not nurtured the young talent with the same solidarity. There have been other forces, but that held back the process. The team that came out after the All Star Break 2015 showed (in some ways) that perhaps if the team did not dither with a rusty Stephen Drew or Grady Sizemore's entrails that some of the comfort for the kiddos would have arrived faster. That is hard to prove though. Teams that are atrophying talent do not keep getting picked for good results, but I do think the management has earned the skepticism.

[Kimmi]

He is given too much credit just by the fact that we are still talking about him. Goodbye and good luck. He is no longer a factor, so he doesn't matter.

 

He might not matter, but all the prospects that he acquired for our team matter.