The search for an ace

[a700hitter]

Yeah but that's not what happened to Familia any of these times.

 

The fact is that the Royals were an excellent team for putting bat on ball, and forcing the mediocre Mets infield defense to make plays by continuously making small contact and hustling, kept paying off in spades for the Royals.

 

The only blown save that was all Familia was Game 1, Gordon's solo shot was the only "true outcome" that lost the Mets a lead. The rest was all on their infield (and occasionally outfield) D

Bringing in a reliever against the Royals with inherited runners is like sending the reliever to his death if he doesn't have a good defensive team. They put the bat on the ball and the exposed the Mets infield defense. Collins set Familia up to fail twice. He didn't pitch poorly in the last two games. In fact, he was excellent in game 5. Game 4 he gave up a couple of hits, but his defense let the tying run score. If Collins had gone to Familia for the 6 out save like Yost went to Davis in that game, there would be baseball tonight. But I can't be certain of that either. The Royals proved to be an impossible team to put away.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah but that's not what happened to Familia any of these times.

 

The fact is that the Royals were an excellent team for putting bat on ball, and forcing the mediocre Mets infield defense to make plays by continuously making small contact and hustling, kept paying off in spades for the Royals.

 

The only blown save that was all Familia was Game 1, Gordon's solo shot was the only "true outcome" that lost the Mets a lead. The rest was all on their infield (and occasionally outfield) D

 

You seem to be disagreeing with my point and yet saying essentially the same thing.

[a700hitter]

You seem to be disagreeing with my point and yet saying essentially the same thing.

Yes, he isn't.

[Spudboy]

The Sox picked up the option on Buch.

 

We're saved!

[mvp 78]

The Sox picked up the option on Buch.

 

We're saved!

 

Get the duckboats ready!

[Kimmi]

You seem to be disagreeing with my point and yet saying essentially the same thing.

 

The "save" stat is bad enough. The "blown save" is even worse. I remember Papelbon getting a blown save in a playoff game in a situation similar to what you described. He came into the game with bases loaded and no outs. He gave up a sac fly, then induced a ground ball double play. To be charged with a blown save in a situation like that is criminal.

[Kimmi]

The Sox picked up the option on Buch.

 

We're saved!

 

It's the right move to pick up Clay's option. A no brainer, really. The value that Clay can give is very much worth the $13.5 million, whether the Sox keep him or end up trading him.

 

The mistake would be in relying on Clay to be the leader of the staff. I don't think Dombrowski has any intention of doing that.

[jacksonianmarch]

I don't think Clay is on your team in 2016. I think he is used to stockpile assets to get a real #1

[Bellhorn04]

The "save" stat is bad enough. The "blown save" is even worse. I remember Papelbon getting a blown save in a playoff game in a situation similar to what you described. He came into the game with bases loaded and no outs. He gave up a sac fly, then induced a ground ball double play. To be charged with a blown save in a situation like that is criminal.

 

Kimmi, one of the all-time classic examples of why both the save stat and the hold stat should be abolished came in a game that Sox fans all know and love - Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS.

 

As we all remember with joy, Joe Torre elected to let Tom Gordon start the 8th with the Yanks leading 4-2. Gordon gave up the home run to Papi. Torre didn't budge. Gordon gave up a walk to Millar and a single to Nixon, moving pinch runner Roberts to third. Torre finally trudged out to the mound and removed Gordon for Rivera. Rivera gave up a game-tying sac fly to Varitek, then retired the side. He also pitched a scoreless ninth, raising the question of why Torre didn't have him start the 8th.

 

At the end of the day, Gordon's stat line shows 2 runs allowed in 0.2 innings. Rivera's shows 0 runs allowed in 2 innings.

 

Gordon was credited with a hold. Rivera was charged with a blown save.

[GomesBeard]

Catching up on a few days of posts....

 

I love Harvey and would give quite a bit to get him. His stuff will be better in 2016, and his attitude is that of an ace (along with his stuff, certainly). He would be a GREAT addition. And I agreed with Collins' decision to send him back out, but would have told him, 'One guy gets on, I'm coming out to bring in Familia'... But Collins did a great job all year, keeping a really sub-par, injured team (Eric Campbell was the clean-up hitter for a number of games in June and July) relevant until they got some help. Glad to see him get a 2-year contract, which will take him to retirement.

 

Familia had a great year and I agree his usage was a little strange in the WS. But I give more credit to KC than I do blame to him. KC just doesn't miss the ball or give up non-productive outs. It seems like the ball was ALWAYS in play, and defense was not the Mets forte this year, from the first pitch of the first WS game when Cespedes butchered that ball. I am not a KC fan but they were clearly the better team, 1 - 25.

[Palodios]

We as a discussion board and community need to give up on Harvey.

 

The Mets are looking like one of the strongest teams going into 2016, and they're not going to trade away their best player to a team whose trade assets don't fit their needs.

 

Its a bad sign when you're trying to trade for a cost less obtainable than Price, Cueto, Greinke, Gray, Sale.

[mvp 78]

I don't think Clay is on your team in 2016. I think he is used to stockpile assets to get a real #1

 

One can only hope.

[Kimmi]

I don't think Clay is on your team in 2016. I think he is used to stockpile assets to get a real #1

 

Personally, I hope he is on my team. I don't know why there is so much hate for Clay.

 

Either way, picking up the option offers the Sox some flexibility.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, one of the all-time classic examples of why both the save stat and the hold stat should be abolished came in a game that Sox fans all know and love - Game 5 of the 2004 ALCS.

 

As we all remember with joy, Joe Torre elected to let Tom Gordon start the 8th with the Yanks leading 4-2. Gordon gave up the home run to Papi. Torre didn't budge. Gordon gave up a walk to Millar and a single to Nixon, moving pinch runner Roberts to third. Torre finally trudged out to the mound and removed Gordon for Rivera. Rivera gave up a game-tying sac fly to Varitek, then retired the side. He also pitched a scoreless ninth, raising the question of why Torre didn't have him start the 8th.

 

At the end of the day, Gordon's stat line shows 2 runs allowed in 0.2 innings. Rivera's shows 0 runs allowed in 2 innings.

 

Gordon was credited with a hold. Rivera was charged with a blown save.

 

Perfect example. I had forgotten the specifics of that game until you reminded me.

 

The idea of a 'save' isn't necessarily a bad one. It just needs to be redefined in a way to give more weight or value to a one run, 4 out save than it does to a 3 run, 1 out save.

[Spudboy]

Personally, I hope he is on my team. I don't know why there is so much hate for Clay.

 

Either way, picking up the option offers the Sox some flexibility.

 

 

This is the only reason to have kept him. Somebody else may value him.

 

The reason that so many of us Sox fans want him gone is that he is almost 31 and and has only pitched one complete season. 13 mil seems lick a lot for a part time employee. Especially when guys like Miley make all of their starts for less money.

 

If anything or anyone on the Sox can be classified as an "Enigma" it would be Laptop. Dominant for half a season then absent the rest of the season. I'm done with him and if you lived up here you would hear echos of my opinion every day.

[Northern Star]

Mets would have to be certifiable to trade Harvey unless some idiot gave up the farm for him.

[GomesBeard]

This is the only reason to have kept him. Somebody else may value him.

 

The reason that so many of us Sox fans want him gone is that he is almost 31 and and has only pitched one complete season. 13 mil seems lick a lot for a part time employee. Especially when guys like Miley make all of their starts for less money.

 

If anything or anyone on the Sox can be classified as an "Enigma" it would be Laptop. Dominant for half a season then absent the rest of the season. I'm done with him and if you lived up here you would hear echos of my opinion every day.

 

Yeah, I think I'm done with Clay as well. If we can fill up the rotation without him, I say dump him. But I think I want to see what else the Sox do first.

[Spudboy]

Yeah, I think I'm done with Clay as well. If we can fill up the rotation without him, I say dump him. But I think I want to see what else the Sox do first.

 

Oh absolutely. I am itching to see what DD has up his sleeve. I'd like to see DD so something very soon rather than wait for the GM meetings and all that crap. Beat the other to the punch and make some splashes now.

 

Getting rid of Laptop is not a priority.

[Kimmi]

This is the only reason to have kept him. Somebody else may value him.

 

The reason that so many of us Sox fans want him gone is that he is almost 31 and and has only pitched one complete season. 13 mil seems lick a lot for a part time employee. Especially when guys like Miley make all of their starts for less money.

 

If anything or anyone on the Sox can be classified as an "Enigma" it would be Laptop. Dominant for half a season then absent the rest of the season. I'm done with him and if you lived up here you would hear echos of my opinion every day.

 

I understand the frustration with his frailty, but I will take that half season of dominant pitching from him next season. Mind you, he cannot, by any means, be counted on as our ace next season. However, a half a season of a dominant Clay in addition to our newly acquired #1 (and maybe newly acquired #2/3) would be tough to beat.

 

If/when Clay gets injured, Owens could be called up or the Sox can acquire another pitcher before the deadline.

[Kimmi]

I read today that Henry's preference in acquiring a #1 pitcher is for the Sox to trade for one rather than hand out a huge contract through free agency. He is still looking for the young, cost-controlled arm versus giving a mega contract to a 30+ year old pitcher.

[mvp 78]

Oh absolutely. I am itching to see what DD has up his sleeve. I'd like to see DD so something very soon rather than wait for the GM meetings and all that crap. Beat the other to the punch and make some splashes now.

 

Getting rid of Laptop is not a priority.

Dumbrowski usually makes moves at the beginning of the offseason. Looks like he'll be busy for the next 30 days. A different modus operandi than we have seen around here recently.

[mvp 78]

I read today that Henry's preference in acquiring a #1 pitcher is for the Sox to trade for one rather than hand out a huge contract through free agency. He is still looking for the young, cost-controlled arm versus giving a mega contract to a 30+ year old pitcher.

 

Henry is also an idiot.

[Elktonnick]

While I believe Kimmi, I can't believe someone like Henry could realistically believe that another club would give up a solid young starter who is a nbr 1 or even close to being a nbr 1. And who would that be, Keuchal deGrom? Edited November 6, 2015 by Elktonnick

[a700hitter]

I read today that Henry's preference in acquiring a #1 pitcher is for the Sox to trade for one rather than hand out a huge contract through free agency. He is still looking for the young, cost-controlled arm versus giving a mega contract to a 30+ year old pitcher.

Do you remember who wrote that? Was it a sourced statement or just a prediction?

[a700hitter]

While I believe Kimmi, I can't believe someone like Henry could realistically believe that another club would give up a solid young starter who is a nbr 1 or even close to being a nbr 1. And who would that be, Keuchal deGrom?

A number 1 pitcher will cost Betts or Bogaerts unless the pitcher is in his walk year.

[Elktonnick]

A number 1 pitcher will cost Betts or Bogaerts unless the pitcher is in his walk year.

 

Probably both. I just don't think there is anyone who fits that description with the exception of deGrom. The Mets would certainly want more than merely Betts or Bogaerts. They probably would want Betts or Bogaerts and one other top notch young player. If it was reported correctly and Henry actually said it then he is off his meds.

[Bellhorn04]

While I believe Kimmi, I can't believe someone like Henry could realistically believe that another club would give up a solid young starter who is a nbr 1 or even close to being a nbr 1. And who would that be, Keuchal deGrom?

 

Carrasco of Cleveland is the guy.

[Elktonnick]

I think the Sox made a run at Carrasco last year but Cleveland's price was too high.

[jacksonianmarch]

Elk, the problem is that Cleveland wanted market value and the sox didn't want to pay it. You aren't getting Carrasco for JBJ and Shaw. You're going to need to send over an impactful major leaguer to get an ace level starter. Also, Cleveland almost made the playoffs in 2014 and this yr they finished strong, so there is a chance they will be contending again next yr. That means any deals would need to include big league ready talent. If the sox want an ace without giving up current major leaguers, they're going to have to look at Oakland or other rebuilding teams

[Elktonnick]

Jack, I think that's my point. For any such young pitcher the price will be exorbitant. There are so few players who fit that profile that any team who has one will be very reluctant to part with them unless a club like the sox literally pay through the nose in terms of giving up one or more of their young studs.