The search for an ace

[Elktonnick]

There are owners who prefer signing big ticket free agents rather than trading away their prospects. They would rather give up "just money" rather than giving up propects plus money. I'm sure there are several owners who would rather have Price than Carrasco, for instance.

 

Cafardo was simply stating what Henry's preference is. He did not say that the Sox would definitely go that route nor did he rule out the other route.

 

If Henry's "preference" is a mandate and the Sox don't get the nbr 1 starter and revamp their pitching then they are going to continue to suck. There simply aren't any number 1 or 2 starters out there that can be obtained by trade without stripping the club of its quality ML ready young players. That's why they didn't get it done last year.

[Kimmi]

If Henry's "preference" is a mandate and the Sox don't get the nbr 1 starter and revamp their pitching then they are going to continue to suck. There simply aren't any number 1 or 2 starters out there that can be obtained by trade without stripping the club of its quality ML ready young players. That's why they didn't get it done last year.

 

I don't think it's a mandate, just a preference. I think that Dombrowski is much more willing to both part with prospects and to hand out a big contract than Ben was. I think that Henry realized that the team will have to do one or the other this offseason to get a #1 starter, regardless of how much it is going to cost. From what I've been reading, it sounds like Dombrowski will be given the green light on one big free agent contract this offseason.

 

I think the Sox has a deep enough farm that they could make a trade for a #1 and still leave the farm in good shape.

[a700hitter]

It all depends on what the costs end up being. If it's going to strip the farm to get a young stud for about 3 years, then hundreds of millions of dollars to try to extend that stud, signing the free agent for "just money" might be the preference for some teams.

Then he would not be a cost controlled ace if he needs to be extended right away.

[Elktonnick]

I don't think it's a mandate, just a preference. I think that Dombrowski is much more willing to both part with prospects and to hand out a big contract than Ben was. I think that Henry realized that the team will have to do one or the other this offseason to get a #1 starter, regardless of how much it is going to cost. From what I've been reading, it sounds like Dombrowski will be given the green light on one big free agent contract this offseason.

 

I think the Sox has a deep enough farm that they could make a trade for a #1 and still leave the farm in good shape.

 

It is going take more than a packet of farm hands to matter how talented to a get a#1. It is going to take a Betts or a Bogaerts plus. There simply aren't that many available without the sox paying through the nose in terms of giving up ore or more starting position players plus a solid prospect or two.

[a700hitter]

It is going take more than a packet of farm hands to matter how talented to a get a#1. It is going to take a Betts or a Bogaerts plus. There simply aren't that many available without the sox paying through the nose in terms of giving up ore or more starting position players plus a solid prospect or two.

Cost controlled young aces like Sonny Gray are few and they will cost young cost controlled stars in return and/or a package of true can't miss blue chippers.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, tell me which team with an ace would be willing to trade with Boston and get only players on the farm?

[Kimmi]

Then he would not be a cost controlled ace if he needs to be extended right away.

 

Who said anything about needing to be extended right away? The cost controlled aces that the Sox or any team would trade for are probably under control for about 3-4 more years. At that time, they will become free agents needing to be re-signed. So, a team gives up several prospects for a young ace for about 3 years, then will need to shell out millions of dollars on top of that if they want to keep that ace beyond 3-4 years.

[Kimmi]

It is going take more than a packet of farm hands to matter how talented to a get a#1. It is going to take a Betts or a Bogaerts plus. There simply aren't that many available without the sox paying through the nose in terms of giving up ore or more starting position players plus a solid prospect or two.

 

You don't know that for sure. There are likely teams going into rebuilding mode who aren't necessarily looking for major league ready talent.

 

Aside from that, a team like Chicago WS might take a trade centering around Swihart. A team like Cleveland who needs offense and doesn't have a large payroll might take a trade centering around Buchholz and Hanley, provided the Sox ate a good chunk of Hanley's contract.

 

There's also the possibility of a 3 team trade, where the Sox are giving up mostly prospects, and a major league bat is being traded from the 3rd party.

 

In any case, the point is that everybody's favorite whipping boy Cherington has left the Sox in a position where they have the pieces to do what they need to do. Yes, it will be costly, but it is doable.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, tell me which team with an ace would be willing to trade with Boston and get only players on the farm?

 

I don't follow other teams closely enough to know, for the most part, what their needs are and what they have to offer. That said, based on what I do know, I think Oakland and Miami are two teams who would be willing to go that route.

 

Also, read my above post for other options for trades that do not involve giving up Bogaerts or Betts.

 

Dombrowski is a wizard, as you have said many times. I trust him to get the job done.

[a700hitter]

Who said anything about needing to be extended right away? The cost controlled aces that the Sox or any team would trade for are probably under control for about 3-4 more years. At that time, they will become free agents needing to be re-signed. So, a team gives up several prospects for a young ace for about 3 years, then will need to shell out millions of dollars on top of that if they want to keep that ace beyond 3-4 years.

About the same time that Bogaerts would become a free agent. No player is cost controlled forever. The idea is to get a guy with 3-4 years of cost control. Any GM would prefer that to a high priced free agent. Edited November 8, 2015 by a700hitter

[Behindenemylines]

The question is: To we spend $$$$ to get a FA ace or do we trade for one?

[cp176]

If they really are serious about competing next year, they will at least try to do both.

[Elktonnick]

I don't follow other teams closely enough to know, for the most part, what their needs are and what they have to offer. That said, based on what I do know, I think Oakland and Miami are two teams who would be willing to go that route.

 

Also, read my above post for other options for trades that do not involve giving up Bogaerts or Betts.

 

Dombrowski is a wizard, as you have said many times. I trust him to get the job done.

 

Kimmi even Dombrowski isn't going to get blood out of a stone. every other team knows the situation in Boston. They are sure to play hardball (pardon the pun )with Boston when it comes to a trade.

[Kimmi]

About the same time that Bogaerts would become a free agent. No player is cost controlled forever. The idea is to get a guy with 3-4 years of cost control. Any GM would prefer that to a high priced free agent.

 

It's not a matter of having a cost-controlled player versus having a high priced player. It's a matter of paying for a player in terms of prized prospects or major league players like Betts (plus money if you want to later extend said player) versus paying for a player in dollars. Not all GMs are going to prefer giving up their prospects or young studs.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi even Dombrowski isn't going to get blood out of a stone. every other team knows the situation in Boston. They are sure to play hardball (pardon the pun )with Boston when it comes to a trade.

 

No one is expecting him to get something for nothing. I am pretty sure I am not going to like the price we pay, whether it's for a free agent or for a trade. But I am very sure that Dombrowski will get us a #1 pitcher. Personally, I think there are trades that can be made for a young #1 that don't involve Betts or Bogaerts.

[a700hitter]

It's not a matter of having a cost-controlled player versus having a high priced player. It's a matter of paying for a player in terms of prized prospects or major league players like Betts (plus money if you want to later extend said player) versus paying for a player in dollars. Not all GMs are going to prefer giving up their prospects or young studs.

I think you disagree just to disagree. I think every team would be willing to part with prospects for Sonny Gray. It is just a matter of whether they have the chips to make the deal and if they have the chips, the question is how many they would be willing to deal.

[Elktonnick]

No one is expecting him to get something for nothing. I am pretty sure I am not going to like the price we pay, whether it's for a free agent or for a trade. But I am very sure that Dombrowski will get us a #1 pitcher. Personally, I think there are trades that can be made for a young #1 that don't involve Betts or Bogaerts.

 

Name one. Not for a nbr 1. You are dreaming and thinking with your heart not your head.

[Elktonnick]

I think you disagree just to disagree. I think every team would be willing to part with prospects for Sonny Gray. It is just a matter of whether they have the chips to make the deal and if they have the chips, the question is how many they would be willing to deal.

 

I think every one forgets that the Red Sox aren't the only ones in the market for a nbr1. As good as their "prospects" are other teams will also join the auction. Beane or any other GM will be able to command a ML ready position player like Bogaerts, Betts or Swihart for Gray or any other nbr 1 if that GM decides to put one up for trade. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Wanting it to be otherwise won't make it so and is just wishful thinking.

[a700hitter]

Name one. Not for a nbr 1. You are dreaming and thinking with your heart not your head.

Agreed. A number 1 with 3 or 4 years of cost control will command a big price that will include major league experienced young players. Sonny Gray is not going to be had for a package of Moncado and Benitendi.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, the problem for you is that all the Aces are either on contending teams or are FA's. Miami is not dealing Fernandez. That just isn't happening, especially with him coming off TJS. They have tried to extend him, but they'd wait until his value is at its peak to move him. The only other team is Oakland. That's it. The rest are all teams in contention who would want one players

[cp176]

Kimmi, the problem for you is that all the Aces are either on contending teams or are FA's. Miami is not dealing Fernandez. That just isn't happening, especially with him coming off TJS. They have tried to extend him, but they'd wait until his value is at its peak to move him. The only other team is Oakland. That's it. The rest are all teams in contention who would want one players

 

You think the White Sox will be contending?

[Bellhorn04]

Kimmi, the problem for you is that all the Aces are either on contending teams or are FA's. Miami is not dealing Fernandez. That just isn't happening, especially with him coming off TJS. They have tried to extend him, but they'd wait until his value is at its peak to move him. The only other team is Oakland. That's it. The rest are all teams in contention who would want one players

 

What do you think it would take for the Sox to get Carrasco? We were talking earlier about a package of Swihart, Bradley and Owens.

[jacksonianmarch]

Bellhorn, I am talking about Kimmi's notion that the sox could deal from the farm alone and get an ace. Your deal requires 3 big leaguers to move to Cleveland

[Bellhorn04]

Bellhorn, I am talking about Kimmi's notion that the sox could deal from the farm alone and get an ace. Your deal requires 3 big leaguers to move to Cleveland

 

Yes, I understand that. I was just asking if you thought a package like that might be enough for Carrasco.

[cp176]

I would love to see them take a run at Chris Sale.

[Kimmi]

I think you disagree just to disagree. I think every team would be willing to part with prospects for Sonny Gray. It is just a matter of whether they have the chips to make the deal and if they have the chips, the question is how many they would be willing to deal.

 

Ha. I disagree just to disagree? All I posted to begin with was that Henry had a preference for trading for a #1 rather than signing a big free agent contract. You questioned my source, then said he was just filling space, bla bla bla, and now your're saying that any GM prefers that, so you agreed with me all along. I'm pretty sure that you're the one who disagrees just to disagree.

[cp176]

FWIW MLBTR predicts we sign Cueto and O'Day.

 

I saw that this morning. It is a prediction for sure. Good one as well but still just prediction.

[Kimmi]

Name one. Not for a nbr 1. You are dreaming and thinking with your heart not your head.

 

I honestly don't know what it would take to get a number one. I listed several possibilities in a previous post, including a trade centered around Swihart, whom the White Sox love, or a 3-team trade.

 

Many people think that Beane got fleeced in the Donaldson trade. Maybe he just sees value in players that others don't. Who knows what he'd be willing to take for Sonny Gray.

[Kimmi]

I think every one forgets that the Red Sox aren't the only ones in the market for a nbr1. As good as their "prospects" are other teams will also join the auction. Beane or any other GM will be able to command a ML ready position player like Bogaerts, Betts or Swihart for Gray or any other nbr 1 if that GM decides to put one up for trade. There is absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Wanting it to be otherwise won't make it so and is just wishful thinking.

 

My main contention was that a trade could be made that didn't involve Betts or Bogaerts. I didn't include Swihart in that, or any other major league ready player. Buccholz, Hanley, Swihart, JBJ could all be included as part of a package along with prospects.

 

 

Certainly other teams will join in the auction, but from what I've read, other teams don't have as much to give up as the Sox do, even when you exclude Betts and Bogaerts.

[cp176]

Kimmi, the problem for you is that all the Aces are either on contending teams or are FA's. Miami is not dealing Fernandez. That just isn't happening, especially with him coming off TJS. They have tried to extend him, but they'd wait until his value is at its peak to move him. The only other team is Oakland. That's it. The rest are all teams in contention who would want one players

 

Once again - White Sox - Chris Sale. They aren't going anywhere soon which means he isn't either. Kimmi is not necessarily wrong here. A third party could be very much interested in a package led by Swihart. Personally i would prefer to see them keep both Moncada and Devers for sure. I think that they could entice some teams with others that they have to offer if a player like Swihart spear headed trade talks. They are going to have to look at where their soon to be future needs might be. Third base could be an issue - keep Devers. Moncada is considered to be if not the best certainly one of the best prospects in all of baseball. He is capable of playing more than one position - try to keep him. Benintendi, Guerra, JBJ, Castillo, etc. etc. etc. (Betts and then Bogaerts ) Who knows but if either Betts or Bogaerts go you better come up with two top of the rotation guys. Cueto and whoever they have to trade for.