Dombrowski in Cherington Out

[sk7326]

Reasons for concern about Dombrowski, and what appears to be a 180 turn from the Red Sox philosophy:

 

1. Large contracts given to free agents.

2. Trading away the farm.

3. Does not really value analytics.

4. Does not see the importance of defense.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons, but what I've listed is enough.

 

I'm willing to give Dombrowski a chance. He has not done anything yet, good or bad, so I will keep an open mind. I will say, however, that my initial reaction is not a warm, fuzzy one, but rather one of deep concern. I certainly hope this is not a panic move to the other extreme that will end up backfiring, much like the Bobby Valentine move.

 

Also did not value the draft - at least in Detroit.

 

I am willing to give him a chance. But this smelled of a deeply reactionary move without a ton of baseball thought.

[Kimmi]

The problem that has been addressed is that Ben lost the confidence of the Nation and thus management axed him to alleviate that. That much is known. Now how much of that reflects internal concerns is a different matter. I am not doubting it probably had something to do with it. But Ben was the simplest scapegoat - regardless of the merits - and so the axe fell. Dombrowski at first blush smells a lot like the sort of "win the news cycle" signing that the Sandoval-Ramirez tag team was. After all, Cherington DID bring in DiPoto to do some self scouting and whatnot. And then he got axed a week later by the sexiest executive name out there. This does not have the aura of a decision made entirely on baseball merits.

 

I am not one to say that Cherington deserved to stay - although I think the answers are a lot more complex. He was one of the key front office pieces during the seminal decade of modern Red Sox history, and given the status of the Cubs rebuild - the Red Sox Way as it were did not suddenly get passe overnight. What is true is since 2011 the ownership/management has very much dithered in a very reactionary way to fan opinion on this stuff, instead of trusting what Lucchino, Epstein and the baseball ops had built. So what we're left with is a front office overhaul, but a very haphazard one - enough that I can't say thank god ... because this could end up quite bad.

 

I still don't think Ben is at fault here for the extreme amount of underperformance that we've seen. I still believe it was a good offseason plan, despite the plan not working. I can understand why he is being let go, not to say that it's fair, but I would have liked to see him stick around one more year at least.

[Bellhorn04]

I can agree that it was probably time for a fresh pair of eyes, but I thought that was what Dipoto was brought in for. Personally, I would have given Ben another year to clean up his mess. Despite the extreme lack of success the team has had the last 2 years, we did win a championship in 2013, and this team is set up for the long haul, with a good core of young players, and several more 2-3 years away. IMO, the team does not need an extreme makeover to be competitive next year.

 

That's yet to be seen. We do have some promising players, no question. But we're still a very bad team as presently constituted - especially the pitching staff.

[a700hitter]

Also did not value the draft - at least in Detroit.

 

I am willing to give him a chance. But this smelled of a deeply reactionary move without a ton of baseball thought.

Maybe the owners are the problem. Unfortunately, they cannot be fired.

[SoxnCycles]

When the philosophy took full hold it stopped working in recent years as demonstrated by 3 last place finishes in 4 years. That is not success. That is unprecedented failure not seen since the pre-Yawkey years.

 

It took 10 years to "fully take hold'?

 

That's dumb, even by your standards...

[sk7326]

From Speier:

 

 

 

The statement that I bolded and the one that I quoted from Speier's article are what concern me the most. Theo and Ben both operated under the same philosophy, which happens to be a spot on philosophy. That philosophy has made this team one of the most successful since this ownerhip took over. Why change something that is proven to work, and go in what seems to be the exact opposite direction?

 

Signing guys to big free agent contracts and trading away the farm might help us in the immediate future, but the long term outlook will suffer.

 

Cherington was a key part of the organization responsible for the best decade in this team's modern history. That method did not get passe. But I think after 2011 the front office basically ran from it in reaction to the collapse. There has been a lot of mixed messages since. The most coherent offseason they had, they won the title.

[iortiz]

From Speier:

 

 

 

The statement that I bolded and the one that I quoted from Speier's article are what concern me the most. Theo and Ben both operated under the same philosophy, which happens to be a spot on philosophy. That philosophy has made this team one of the most successful since this ownerhip took over. Why change something that is proven to work, and go in what seems to be the exact opposite direction?

 

Signing guys to big free agent contracts and trading away the farm might help us in the immediate future, but the long term outlook will suffer.

Aside 2015, The last 5 years have been very good in Detroit. His experience and success will help us.

 

At least he has a better profile and experience (way far) than Cherington.

[Kimmi]

When the philosophy took full hold it stopped working in recent years as demonstrated by 3 last place finishes in 4 years. That is not success. That is unprecedented failure not seen since the pre-Yawkey years.

 

The philosophy did not stop working. The philosophy is the correct philosophy behing building a franchise that will have sustained success.

[sk7326]

I still don't think Ben is at fault here for the extreme amount of underperformance that we've seen. I still believe it was a good offseason plan, despite the plan not working. I can understand why he is being let go, not to say that it's fair, but I would have liked to see him stick around one more year at least.

 

I would have been fine with him staying. But if they wanted to bring in somebody else from a similar ilk (I cited Jason McLeod often as an example) I would not have objected. I did not hate the offseason plan, although the Sandoval signing was unnecessary. (I saw the upside in the signing, but for me Ramirez as a 3B solution was sufficient)

[iortiz]

That's yet to be seen. We do have some promising players, no question. But we're still a very bad team as presently constituted - especially the pitching staff.

 

Exactly Bell.

[sk7326]

Aside 2015, The last 5 years have been very good in Detroit. His experience and success will help us.

 

At least he has a better profile and experience (way far) than Cherington.

 

A lot of the success was driven by geographic luck as much as anything, although 2012-2014 were very good teams. I think it could go well, but the rumored GM choice is quite bad.

[Bellhorn04]

We can talk plans and philosophies all day, but what really killed the 2015 season was simply bad moves - or moves that failed spectacularly.

[a700hitter]

Of course they do - from the eyeballs on NESN to the calls to various chat shows. PR is a business reason btw.

The fanbase has been ridiculously and steadfastly loyal in the face of this incompetence. The Red Sox have rolled out a terrible product in three of the last 4 seasons. It was not suitable for consumers, but the fanbase has continued to fill Fenway and buy all of their junk and crap. The revenue streams have not been damaged. What has been damaged is that Ben has wasted $400 million over the last 2 seasons and came away with consecutive last place finishes. If ownership reacts to WEEI, then they are bigger idiots than I thought they were. The fans should get considered when the actions of the fans start to impact their bottom line. That hasn't happend yet. What has happened is that Ben performed so atrociously that he had to go. This wasn't just a down year. I will repeat. This is unprecedented failure since pre-Yawkey years. People like you need a wake up call.

[SoxnCycles]

I'm curious:

 

Are fans expecting the new regime to off load the contracts of Ramirez, Sandoval, Porcello AND Miley?

 

Will they be failures if they don't?

 

This off season should be fun to watch...

[Kimmi]

It certainly reads like you have an open mind without any biases regarding this move.

 

Oh, I have biases, just as you and everyone else here does. I have concerns. That said, I am not concluding that hiring him was a terrible move or a great move until I see what direction this team takes.

[iortiz]

The philosophy did not stop working. The philosophy is the correct philosophy behing building a franchise that will have sustained success.

 

His "philosophy" showed him the exit door.

 

A new strategy and "philosophy" is what this team needs and it is what has been addressed.

[Kimmi]

Also did not value the draft - at least in Detroit.

 

I am willing to give him a chance. But this smelled of a deeply reactionary move without a ton of baseball thought.

 

I'm with you SK.

 

We'll see how it goes.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm curious:

 

Are fans expecting the new regime to off load the contracts of Ramirez, Sandoval, Porcello AND Miley?

 

Will they be failures if they don't?

 

This off season should be fun to watch...

 

I'd be satisfied if they moved one of Hanley or Panda.

 

I don't think anybody who thinks about it wants them to move Miley.

 

I think most people realize it's not a realistic option to move Porcello.

[a700hitter]

A lot of the success was driven by geographic luck as much as anything, although 2012-2014 were very good teams. I think it could go well, but the rumored GM choice is quite bad.

I am glad that you will be joining me as I criticize the moves of the next FO administration. I play no favorites. If DD doesn't get it done, he will be on my posting hit list. Welcome aboard. I agree with you that the FO is also a bunch of stuffed suits without a clue.

[Kimmi]

That's yet to be seen. We do have some promising players, no question. But we're still a very bad team as presently constituted - especially the pitching staff.

 

I've said before, acquire at minimum a #1 pitcher, and preferably a #2/3 as well. Add a few middle relief BP arms. Kelly and Wright can fortify the pen. Figure out who's going to play 1B. We need pitching help, no question. I think the position players, with the exception of exactly who is going to play where, are pretty well set.

[Kimmi]

Cherington was a key part of the organization responsible for the best decade in this team's modern history. That method did not get passe. But I think after 2011 the front office basically ran from it in reaction to the collapse. There has been a lot of mixed messages since. The most coherent offseason they had, they won the title.

 

Exactly.

[a700hitter]

Oh, I have biases, just as you and everyone else here does. I have concerns. That said, I am not concluding that hiring him was a terrible move or a great move until I see what direction this team takes.

I have never been a fan of any FO personnel. I think they are a bunch of overpaid knuckleheads that are in charge of a product that pretty much sells itself. To that extent, I have no bias. I will criticize them all. As for Ben, he was abject failure in leading the organization. That is not a bias. That is his record. I hope DD does better, but I will join you in criticizing him if he fails too.

[Bellhorn04]

I've said before, acquire at minimum a #1 pitcher, and preferably a #2/3 as well. Add a few middle relief BP arms. Kelly and Wright can fortify the pen. Figure out who's going to play 1B. We need pitching help, no question. I think the position players, with the exception of exactly who is going to play where, are pretty well set.

 

It could work out. But I sure hope the pre-season projections don't have us as the favorite again.

[iortiz]

We can talk plans and philosophies all day, but what really killed the 2015 season was simply bad moves - or moves that failed spectacularly.

 

... Plus the tendency of bad results in the last 3/4 years.

[a700hitter]

The philosophy did not stop working. The philosophy is the correct philosophy behing building a franchise that will have sustained success.

I would characterize 3 last place finishes in 4 years as sustained failure.

[Bellhorn04]

I have never been a fan of any FO personnel. I think they are a bunch of overpaid knuckleheads that are in charge of a product that pretty much sells itself.

 

I thought you were a fan of Dick O'Connell.

[Kimmi]

I would have been fine with him staying. But if they wanted to bring in somebody else from a similar ilk (I cited Jason McLeod often as an example) I would not have objected. I did not hate the offseason plan, although the Sandoval signing was unnecessary. (I saw the upside in the signing, but for me Ramirez as a 3B solution was sufficient)

 

I don't disagree, except to say that for me, the Sandoval signing only appears unnecessary now, in hindsight. I was not a huge fan of his contract, but I had no problem with the FO signing both Sandoval and Hanley. Hanley should not be this bad.

 

Also, like I said before, I can understand the need for a fresh pair of eyes. However, I have concerns that those eyes are so seemingly opposite from this ownership's long standing philosophy.

[a700hitter]

I thought you were a fan of Dick O'Connell.

No, not a fan, but in retrospect, I can appreciate the job that he did.

[Kimmi]

I'm curious:

 

Are fans expecting the new regime to off load the contracts of Ramirez, Sandoval, Porcello AND Miley?

 

Will they be failures if they don't?

 

This off season should be fun to watch...

 

This offseason will be interesting, to say the least.

 

As I said, I don't think that the teams needs to be stripped down or completely overhauled. If Dombrowski starts with that approach, I will likely not be a happy camper.

[a700hitter]

This offseason will be interesting, to say the least.

 

As I said, I don't think that the teams needs to be stripped down or completely overhauled. If Dombrowski starts with that approach, I will likely not be a happy camper.

Kimmi turning on the FO? I'll have to see that to believe it.