Who is the Biggest Problem Right Now?

[User Name]

The Jays may have decided to deal Donaldson after the Sox got Panda.

[Spudboy]

The Jays may have decided to deal Donaldson after the Sox got Panda.

 

Yes, I have acknowledged that.

[Spudboy]

With all the blood in the water about who is at fault and with so many calling for Farrell and Ben to be fired I have a question.

 

My opinion is that neither will be fired until after the 2015 season is over. Maybe I am way off here but that would seem to be out of character for this ownership group. I think?

 

Anyway, who would be suitable replacements for both? My assumption is that it would be easier to replace a manager. Identifying and hiring the best GM would be much harder to do. I'd like to see the Sox hire someone with experience as a MLB GM. Someone who has a record of building solid teams. And someone who has a good working relationship with the other GMs. I have no idea who that could be. I wonder if the Sox know?

[a700hitter]

I'll let Ben off of the hook for Donaldson if Billy Beane refuses to deal with Ben because Ben killed Billy's mother or slept with Billy's wife. Anything other than that is a poor excuse or rationalization, and I am not buying it.

[Palodios]

I'll let Ben off of the hook for Donaldson if Billy Beane refuses to deal with Ben because Ben killed Billy's mother or slept with Billy's wife. Anything other than that is a poor excuse or rationalization, and I am not buying it.

 

If the Sox had traded for Donaldson instead of signing Pablo, this would be a very different team.

 

I was pissed when the Jays got him for peanuts, but Ben has seemed pretty diligent during the offseasons. We always hear about the Red Sox being interested in tons and tons of players they don't end up signing/trading for. Donaldson is the rare player who would have been worth a Betts/Swihart trade. If there was a match, I would like to think the would have pulled the trigger.

[Gringo]

Whats painful is that they signed Sandoval based on his playoff hype. Clearly a clutch playoff performer. But he's a 15 HR .270 guy with a weight problem. Total waste of money. They should've let Hanley play short and move Xander to 3rd and gone after a better defensive LF. Total calamity the way this team was assembled.

[cp176]

Whats painful is that they signed Sandoval based on his playoff hype. Clearly a clutch playoff performer. But he's a 15 HR .270 guy with a weight problem. Total waste of money. They should've let Hanley play short and move Xander to 3rd and gone after a better defensive LF. Total calamity the way this team was assembled.

 

I think that they were making an honest effort to bring in some offense and weren't thinking much about anything else. XB has turned in to an all-star shortstop. He shouldn't be going anywhere. there really is just one place for Ramirez and that spot is occupied. They won't move him either. He is going to be in left field or the dh position. The only other option i see is for him to be left out. For the time being, it looks as though they are stuck with Sandoval and Ramirez.

[sk7326]

Whats painful is that they signed Sandoval based on his playoff hype. Clearly a clutch playoff performer. But he's a 15 HR .270 guy with a weight problem. Total waste of money. They should've let Hanley play short and move Xander to 3rd and gone after a better defensive LF. Total calamity the way this team was assembled.

 

No.

 

1. They signed Panda because he had high contact rates (which is more important in a run-poor era), he was a good athlete (a fat one, but a good one) and the youngest premium free agent. They were buying more prime, less downside and if you squint hard enough, perhaps even a drop of improvement (granted, a little more dreaming needed to make that happen).

 

2. Hanley was a disasterously bad infielder whose body was falling off limb by limb. At best he was going be a 3B. Xander has been fine at SS this year - no Ozzie Smith, but a distinct improvement on last year.

 

3. Left Field is the easiest position on the field. The calculated bet was that Hanley could be kept in one piece and that he'd be decent at the easiest position on the field. Alas.

[Kimmi]

I had to point the finger at Ben. He's the guy who configured this roster with a lot of money and prospects at his disposal.

 

The last person I would blame is Ben. He cannot be faulted for the level of underachievement this team has reached. When all the computer models say that this team should be one of the top offenses in baseball and that they should win the division, Ben did his job.

 

I put the majority of the blame on the players, with a good degree of questioning on Farrell and the coaching staff as to why the players are underperforming to such an extent.

[Kimmi]

Largest slice of blame pie - the coaching staff

 

Ben went out and signed the top 2 position players in the free agent crop. You would have been a fool to expect sunshine and rainbows from them, but they were expected to be helpful, and Ben got them both on pretty reasonable deals by 2015 standards. (ignore the money - functionally doesn't matter, but the years were totally acceptable) Dustin Pedroia is healthy. We are not relying excessively on old farts - this has been a large, systemic level of offensive underachievement (Bogaerts and Pedroia aside).

 

He let Lester go and peopled the rotation with a bunch of mid-rotation sort of guys. Aside from Buchholz they have not pitched like mid-rotation pitchers. Porcello has pitched more like back end, and Miley and Kelly have pitched like guys who might not be actual big league starters. For a bunch of guys in their 20s with either stuff or track record to be *decent*, this is serious underachievement.

 

When the team - with talented players, who have actually not shown that much evidence of non-talent, all fail together, that points to a systemic flaw. I would be all for a managerial change here - something needs to be shaken up.

 

As always, good posts in this thread SK. Thank you for being able to look at things objectively and with a voice of reason.

[Kimmi]

The problem with the Hanley signing, which we now know, is that he was signed to play LF, and he's a truly horrific outfielder. He's a DH.

 

I'm still baffled as to what the plan with the outfield was from the beginning. So many bodies-Hanley, Victorino, Craig, Betts, Castillo, Nava.

 

Did you really think Hanley would be this bad in left field though? Left field is the 2nd easiest defensive position to play. Moving from SS to LF is a move that should have helped his defense at least a little, not made him worse.

[Kimmi]

Great. But that article does not give pertinent dates that would indicate when initial discussion of moving Donaldson was. I still don't know IF or WHEN the Sox may have known.

 

Maybe they never knew until it was a done deal? Then the question would be why the Sox did not call Beane and ask about Donaldson while scoping the terrain for a 3rd baseman.

 

In any case Toronto made a good deal for a player the Sox could use very much and who they could easily afford to get.

 

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I am very confident that Ben called Beane and at least inquired about Donaldson, and was told that he was not available. Otherwise, if Donaldson was available before the Sox signed Sandoval, Beane would have called the Sox and let them know that, and we would have heard some rumblings about it.

[a700hitter]

The last person I would blame is Ben. He cannot be faulted for the level of underachievement this team has reached. When all the computer models say that this team should be one of the top offenses in baseball and that they should win the division, Ben did his job.

 

I put the majority of the blame on the players, with a good degree of questioning on Farrell and the coaching staff as to why the players are underperforming to such an extent.

He has been a colossal failure. To give him a pass if he finishes last 3 times in 4 seasons with a huge payroll cannot be justified unless a tsunami hit Fenway Park and killed the entire team. If his computer models showed that the 2012, 2014 and 2015 teams were supposed to be good, he needs to get better computer models. Kimmo, you are a great poster and a knowledgeable loyal fan, but you are like an O.J. Juror the way you make excuses for Ben. Lol!

 

Edit: and no, I did not forget 2013, and I am very grateful, but he is a huge failure if he can't turn this team around. I am hoping that he can.

Edited June 15, 2015 by a700hitter

[Spudboy]

The last person I would blame is Ben. He cannot be faulted for the level of underachievement this team has reached. When all the computer models say that this team should be one of the top offenses in baseball and that they should win the division, Ben did his job.

 

I put the majority of the blame on the players, with a good degree of questioning on Farrell and the coaching staff as to why the players are underperforming to such an extent.

 

I always enjoy your stats and supporting information as I generally learn some things. But in this case I believe that Ben would have done his job if he used the computer models and actually constructed a team that did what the model predicted. In this case he decided to build a team that has failed. Under performance or not, he put this team together and he must own the failure, too. As for Farrell and the other coaches? If Ben assembled this group of Manager and coaches or if he just signed off on some of them then their failure to produce is also on him.

 

As someone who has managed the work of many people for many years I always accepted the blame and responsibility for the efforts of my staffs. That is part of a manager's job.

[iortiz]

Here are some numbers.

 

Sox are this season thus far:

 

29th in the last 30 days in W%

26th in SRS

20th UZR/150

22th wRC+

29th ERA (starters)

24th ERA (@ BP)

21th SV%

 

and on and on and on.....

 

This season is over, it is plain and simple actually. As I said, this team has so many flaws. The ship is sinking in every department. This nightmare has happened in 3 of the last 4 years, and this year is even worse. The diagnostic and first move that has to be made is pretty simple actually, Ben and Farrell have to go, they are killing this team, not now...they have been for several years. Thanks for 2013, but they have to go.

 

It is great to be optimistic and all, but sometimes you have to aware and realize that you have a problem first before to address it, otherwise you will live in fantasy land forever.

[Northern Star]

I always enjoy your stats and supporting information as I generally learn some things. But in this case I believe that Ben would have done his job if he used the computer models and actually constructed a team that did what the model predicted. In this case he decided to build a team that has failed. Under performance or not, he put this team together and he must own the failure, too. As for Farrell and the other coaches? If Ben assembled this group of Manager and coaches or if he just signed off on some of them then their failure to produce is also on him.

 

As someone who has managed the work of many people for many years I always accepted the blame and responsibility for the efforts of my staffs. That is part of a manager's job.

 

Can I point out that the Pirates used a computer once to fill out their lineup and it said bat Tike Redman third. Computers can only do so much, the rest is the guys on the field, and to put Hanley in a situation he has never been in before, and figure it's easy, was a gross miscalculation. He's always had a knock against him: selfish, lazy, bad fielder, etc. We are seeing here that he isn't by all accounts putting effort into his fielding, he's afraid of the wall f***ing up his shoulder, and he often has his head up his ass when the game calls for paying strict attention. It's unfortunate that his salary is so high to make a trade unlikely, and the other (only other) alternative is have him at DH which means Papi sits. Or do we ride out a year of totally butchered LF defense and then, ensuring Papi's option doesn't vest, install Hanley at DH full time. If we must keep both we're probably best off with him at DH and Panda at 1B. But as has been pointed out, Panda doesn't really hit enough for a 3B/1B anyway.

[Kimmi]

Let me clarify my statement about the computer models. I am not talking about computer models that Ben used to build the team. I'm sure he uses both computer projections and scouting reports when assembling a team.

 

I am talking about the computer projection systems that project the standings after the teams are assembled. These are not Sox projection systems. They are not biased. They are about as objective as you can get, and they are extremely comprehensive.

 

They were all in agreement that, on paper, the Sox should be good enough to win the division.

 

As a GM, that's all you can do. Put together a team, on paper, that is good enough to win. What happens on the field is beyond the GM's control.

[Spudboy]

Let me clarify my statement about the computer models. I am not talking about computer models that Ben used to build the team. I'm sure he uses both computer projections and scouting reports when assembling a team.

 

I am talking about the computer projection systems that project the standings after the teams are assembled. These are not Sox projection systems. They are not biased. They are about as objective as you can get, and they are extremely comprehensive.

 

They were all in agreement that, on paper, the Sox should be good enough to win the division.

 

As a GM, that's all you can do. Put together a team, on paper, that is good enough to win. What happens on the field is beyond the GM's control.

 

But not beyond his responsibility.

[iortiz]

Let me clarify my statement about the computer models. I am not talking about computer models that Ben used to build the team. I'm sure he uses both computer projections and scouting reports when assembling a team.

 

I am talking about the computer projection systems that project the standings after the teams are assembled. These are not Sox projection systems. They are not biased. They are about as objective as you can get, and they are extremely comprehensive.

 

They were all in agreement that, on paper, the Sox should be good enough to win the division.

 

As a GM, that's all you can do. Put together a team, on paper, that is good enough to win. What happens on the field is beyond the GM's control.

I think that you have to read what Spud just have wrote, specially the last paragraph. This is how managers are evaluated regardless the industry.

[Kimmi]

He has been a colossal failure. To give him a pass if he finishes last 3 times in 4 seasons with a huge payroll cannot be justified unless a tsunami hit Fenway Park and killed the entire team. If his computer models showed that the 2012, 2014 and 2015 teams were supposed to be good, he needs to get better computer models. Kimmo, you are a great poster and a knowledgeable loyal fan, but you are like an O.J. Juror the way you make excuses for Ben. Lol!

 

Edit: and no, I did not forget 2013, and I am very grateful, but he is a huge failure if he can't turn this team around. I am hoping that he can.

 

Since this owership took over, going into each season, I have always felt like the team that we had should be competitive. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. As a fan, all I can ask is that the GM to put together at team that should be competitive. I feel like both Theo and Ben have done that every year. I know that even the best laid plans do not always work.

 

That said, I love the Red Sox. I can't help but to defend them.

[sk7326]

The Donaldson thing can't really be held against Ben specifically - the industry seemed caught off guard. It is rare that something like this NEVER got leaked in any form. My guess it is one of those things where the Jays casually asked Oakland, "we'd give you Brett Lawrie for him" and Oakland suddenly thought "Lawrie, really?" (ignore whether this is a smart valuation - just that it could be a plausible one).

 

It's like a family that was not intending to sell the house when suddenly somebody offered $200K more than what Zillow said. The priorities can shift suddenly.

 

Beane and Cherington have dealt before amicably - so I doubt the Red Sox would have been shut out of a true open auction.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Beane pulled the trigger without gauging interest around the league, then he's an idiot. And he is not. My bet is that he wanted one of the "untouchables" and was turned down. I think they got Lawrie for now and like what they got in Graveman and Nolin. My bet is they wanted a now 3b (maybe Holt) and Owens or ERod with a couple other guys in there. And he was probably turned down.

[jacksonianmarch]

This is a bit more on Cherington than Farrell, but both are responsible for this debachle. You go out and sign 2 big bats, bring up kids at important positions, and re tool the rotation, then you put your stamp on the team. None of the moves he made has worked out aside from the Miller trade for ERod which happened last year.

[Bellhorn04]

Did you really think Hanley would be this bad in left field though? Left field is the 2nd easiest defensive position to play. Moving from SS to LF is a move that should have helped his defense at least a little, not made him worse.

 

Left field may be the 2nd easiest position, Kimmi, but for Hanley, a guy with obvious injury concerns, left field in Fenway would seem to me to be fairly challenging, with the wall and the corner.

[Spudboy]

I think that you have to read what Spud just have wrote, specially the last paragraph. This is how managers are evaluated regardless the industry.

 

Thanks.

 

I do agree that the poor play is on the players. But as a supervisor or manager it was always my responsibility to correct the flaws if I could or find a better replacement.

[Spudboy]

This is a bit more on Cherington than Farrell, but both are responsible for this debachle. You go out and sign 2 big bats, bring up kids at important positions, and re tool the rotation, then you put your stamp on the team. None of the moves he made has worked out aside from the Miller trade for ERod which happened last year.

 

That and the Hannigan deal. That was pretty smart. To bad he got hurt.

[Spudboy]

Left field may be the 2nd easiest position, Kimmi, but for Hanley, a guy with obvious injury concerns, left field in Fenway would seem to me to be fairly challenging, with the wall and the corner.

 

If he would only put in the extra work to become better I would not bitch that much every time he misplays a ball.

 

He doe not do that, however.

 

I'll be glad when he is the DH.

[Thunder]

If he would only put in the extra work to become better I would not bitch that much every time he misplays a ball.

 

He doe not do that, however.

 

I'll be glad when he is the DH.

 

Which for me, would be a sad reality. I know it will happen with the plethora of OF we have, but Ortiz has been our DH for as long as I can remember. It's like the whole Jeter thing. Staples of my childhood, they both have had a huge influence on how I play the game, and have both been great role models to kids. When Ortiz does hang them up, I don't know what I'll do. Hopefully it's when I'm in college, meaning I'll be too busy.

[Spudboy]

I've never idolized anyone, particularly an athlete that gets paid big money to play.

 

I have more respect for ham'n eggers who punch a clock for 40 plus years and then die.

 

Papi has been fun but I don't have a sentimental attachment to him. I'm not looking forward to his leaving I am just in more of a hurry to get Hanley off the field and concentrate on the one thing that he can do well most of his time.

 

And other than having f***ed Meriah Carey when she was a very young smokeshow, I have no enduring respect for Jetter either.

 

These are just entertainers. Not people who change the world for the better.

[jd98]

Misery loves company, so I might as well come back to this board. Ben's at fault. He had lots of money to spend and plenty of flexibility as to what he could do, and he decided to try some outside-the-box moves, and they have failed horribly. There's been tons of talk about Hanley's horrible defense; that's all on Ben. Hanley should have never been in LF. Once he was signed, Sox had 2 primarily SS's who had each spent time at 3B. Put one at SS and one at 3B. Several people have defended the Sandoval signing by saying the Sox needed a 3B. Not after Hanley had signed. The minute he signed, talks with Sandoval should have ended.

 

After signing both of those, he had to skimp on the SP. Sure they *may* be decent enough, but with the 3rd highest payroll in baseball, I'd expect at least 1 reliably good SP. He did a terrible job at putting together a team considering the resources he had available. They need to be good on the field, not on paper or a computer (and I don't know how any computer would have predicted the SP to be anything but bad).

 

Another questionable move that was mostly overlooked was Ranaudo for Ross. Sure, Ranaudo looked bad in his brief stint in MLB and Sox had plenty of SP prospects, but for Robbie f***ing Ross. Ranaudo was expendable, but he was still a top 10 prospect at the time, so for Robbie Ross? Seriously? Robbie Ross? The 2 worst ERA's in the AL last year, minimum 70 IP were

Robbie Ross 6.20 ERA in 78.1 IP (with equally bad peripherals)

Justin Masterson 5.51 ERA in 98 IP (was even worse after going to NL)

 

If Ben saw potential in these guys and could acquire them as a buy low candidate and see if they improve, then maybe that's OK, but he didn't buy low. He paid $9.5 mil for 1 year for one, and traded a top 10 prospect for the other. That's not buying low, that's buying as if they are going to be quality contributors.

 

And there's more of course, but this post is long enough. On a positive note, I am glad my MLBtv subscription starting freezing a lot, causing me to cancel after 1 month, so I haven't been watching this crap. Hmm, not sure that was positive either.