Red Sox Offense – Bold Moves

[SoxnCycles]

And judging by the tendency of fans to think long term, I'm sure there wasn't a single member that wanted Lackey gone after 2011.

 

Too damned funny....

[jacksonianmarch]

I guess the question is, what was the plan with the rotation? Was he trying to bridge until a better FA period next year? Was he biding time until Owens and Rodriguez are ready? Does he have a trade partner he is waiting for? I know that there were a TON of risks in the rotation, but for a team that invested such capital in offense, what was the plan for the rotation? Masterson is not a long term solution. Buch is basically in his final year. Kelly was a crap shoot. Porcello is a legit big league starter. Miley is probably a #5 in the AL East. I doubt Ben is without a plan and I doubt these 5 are the end game for the rotation for this year.

[SoxnCycles]

I guess the question is, what was the plan with the rotation? Was he trying to bridge until a better FA period next year? Was he biding time until Owens and Rodriguez are ready? Does he have a trade partner he is waiting for? I know that there were a TON of risks in the rotation, but for a team that invested such capital in offense, what was the plan for the rotation? Masterson is not a long term solution. Buch is basically in his final year. Kelly was a crap shoot. Porcello is a legit big league starter. Miley is probably a #5 in the AL East. I doubt Ben is without a plan and I doubt these 5 are the end game for the rotation for this year.

 

I think they took a gamble with the rotation with the idea of using a AAA arm if need be and making a trade at mid-season, if necessary.

I think they knew it was possible one or two of their pitchers wouldn't pan out.

 

I don't think they were all that impressed with this year's free agent crop and are keeping their options open for next off-season.

The only locks they have for next year are Miley and Porcello.

[a700hitter]

I have to disagree with the idea that trading Lackey for Kelly and Craig was bad at the time that it happened. It looks bad as of this moment, but it wasn't a bad trade going in, and it might end up not being a bad trade in the end.

 

1. Ben was looking for major league ready players, not prospects. With both the Lester and Lackey trades, he wanted players that could help the team contend this year.

 

2. Too many people are looking at only the short term (this year) in this deal. Kelly is a cost-controlled player until 2018 and Craig is under contract until 2017, with an option for 2018. The deal was made not only with 2015 in mind, but also for the longer term.

 

3. Kelly was a 26 year old pitcher who can hit 97 mph. He has some upside, and he is cheap. He pitched fairly well with the Cardinals.

 

4. At the time of the trade, our outfield was a mess. We did not have Castillo. Victorino's health is always a concern. Betts had all of 10 games under his belt and wasn't hitting that well in that small sample. JBJ couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. Sizemore was gone. Hanley wasn't signed yet. Holt was cooling off. The Sox needed some outfield depth. Craig was not just an excessive piece. And the fact that he can play 1B didn't hurt.

 

5. Before his injury, Craig was a very good hitter. He is not that old. It is not unrealistic to think that if he got healthy, he could rebound to close to what he was in 2012 or 2013. If he did rebound, his contract would be considered cheap.

 

6. The Sox have taken fliers on players like Craig before. Victorino, who played very well in 2013. Stephen Drew. Beltre. They worked out.

 

Yes, the trade looks bad right now, but the rationale in making the trade at the time is very sound.

 

My recollection is that Pal questioned the wisdom of move at the time of the trade. His concerns have been validated.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think their off season plan included the possibility of nabbing a guy like Hamels or the fact that the division looked so weak that they were one acquisition away. That's the thing that f***ing burns me royally with NY and I assume burns some of you guys as well. If everyone knew the division was gonna be weak, why didn't one team go out there and just go nuts to the wall and separate themselves. It seems like all 5 teams in the division are colluding to be average. I don't get it

[sk7326]

I think their off season plan included the possibility of nabbing a guy like Hamels or the fact that the division looked so weak that they were one acquisition away. That's the thing that f***ing burns me royally with NY and I assume burns some of you guys as well. If everyone knew the division was gonna be weak, why didn't one team go out there and just go nuts to the wall and separate themselves. It seems like all 5 teams in the division are colluding to be average. I don't get it

 

One thing is that the trade market for pitching was going to be tough - there are two big reasons:

 

1. Revenue sharing - nobody is in the poorhouse anymore (it won't stop owners from whining). Certainly incumbent Cy Young winners won't be on the auction block in December.

 

2. The Kansas City Royals - because of the 2nd wild card spot - almost every team HAS to at least act like they can make the playoffs during the time they have to sell season tickets and TV ads.

 

Now what I am curious about is whether a team will pony up the extra prospect it will take to get the Reds to rent out Cueto early. I'd be tempted.

[Bellhorn04]

I have to disagree with the idea that trading Lackey for Kelly and Craig was bad at the time that it happened. It looks bad as of this moment, but it wasn't a bad trade going in, and it might end up not being a bad trade in the end.

 

1. Ben was looking for major league ready players, not prospects. With both the Lester and Lackey trades, he wanted players that could help the team contend this year.

 

2. Too many people are looking at only the short term (this year) in this deal. Kelly is a cost-controlled player until 2018 and Craig is under contract until 2017, with an option for 2018. The deal was made not only with 2015 in mind, but also for the longer term.

 

I can see that side of the argument, certainly. But there is another side that questions why they wouldn't be looking at the short term when they're spending this much money and going over the luxury tax limit.

[iortiz]

I can see that side of the argument, certainly. But there is another side that questions why they wouldn't be looking at the short term when they're spending this much money and going over the luxury tax limit.

 

Yup.

 

They want to win now and almost every year. Thing is that they just do not know how to assemble a team, specially a pitching staff.

[User Name]

I guess the question is, what was the plan with the rotation? Was he trying to bridge until a better FA period next year? Was he biding time until Owens and Rodriguez are ready? Does he have a trade partner he is waiting for? I know that there were a TON of risks in the rotation, but for a team that invested such capital in offense, what was the plan for the rotation? Masterson is not a long term solution. Buch is basically in his final year. Kelly was a crap shoot. Porcello is a legit big league starter. Miley is probably a #5 in the AL East. I doubt Ben is without a plan and I doubt these 5 are the end game for the rotation for this year.

 

The hilarious thing is that outside of Kelly's stinker yesterday they've been good-to-lights out for more than two weeks now, but they cannot f***ing hit. That makes no sense.

[Palodios]

I have to disagree with the idea that trading Lackey for Kelly and Craig was bad at the time that it happened. It looks bad as of this moment, but it wasn't a bad trade going in, and it might end up not being a bad trade in the end.

 

1. Ben was looking for major league ready players, not prospects. With both the Lester and Lackey trades, he wanted players that could help the team contend this year.

 

2. Too many people are looking at only the short term (this year) in this deal. Kelly is a cost-controlled player until 2018 and Craig is under contract until 2017, with an option for 2018. The deal was made not only with 2015 in mind, but also for the longer term.

 

3. Kelly was a 26 year old pitcher who can hit 97 mph. He has some upside, and he is cheap. He pitched fairly well with the Cardinals.

 

4. At the time of the trade, our outfield was a mess. We did not have Castillo. Victorino's health is always a concern. Betts had all of 10 games under his belt and wasn't hitting that well in that small sample. JBJ couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag. Sizemore was gone. Hanley wasn't signed yet. Holt was cooling off. The Sox needed some outfield depth. Craig was not just an excessive piece. And the fact that he can play 1B didn't hurt.

 

5. Before his injury, Craig was a very good hitter. He is not that old. It is not unrealistic to think that if he got healthy, he could rebound to close to what he was in 2012 or 2013. If he did rebound, his contract would be considered cheap.

 

6. The Sox have taken fliers on players like Craig before. Victorino, who played very well in 2013. Stephen Drew. Beltre. They worked out.

 

Yes, the trade looks bad right now, but the rationale in making the trade at the time is very sound.

 

I'm almost always a fan of Ben Cherrington's moves, but the Lackey deal was awful. I was very outspoken about it, and was the one who started the thread here about it.

 

1) I look at this team's long term future more often than not.

 

Allen Craig -- at best -- is a .800 OPS first baseman with ugly defense and poor speed. On his career years, he has put up a 2 WAR. Even if he lived up to those expectations, he would have provided only marginal value at the contract cost because lumbering first basemen are cheap. That's IF healthy and effective.

 

Joe Kelly has one pitch. At best, we were probably looking at a 8th inning guy or mediocre starter unless he developed another. Maybe he'll provide value in the bullpen.

 

2) I am fine with trading players for elite prospects. I am not fine with trading high value pieces for low ceiling projects.

 

3) Kelly's success in St Louis came in the bullpen. His starter ERA is in the mid 4s. Most of the scouting reports at the time believed he was a reliever.

 

4) They had just traded Lester for Cespedes, who only wanted to play LF. Craig doesn't have the speed or armstrength for CF or RF.

 

6) None of those guys came in trades. Fliers are for free agents.

[Bellhorn04]

The Lackey trade could easily end up costing us 5 games in the standings this year.

 

I have a suspicion that at some point we'll get a 'leaked' story about why they really had to trade Lackey...

Edited May 27, 2015 by Bellhorn04

[a700hitter]

This team needs to have some fight, show some resiliency and establish an identity. As soon as they are down in a game, you can turn off the game and leave the ballpark, because they roll over and die. They need a few comeback wins to get some confidence and galvanize the clubhouse. RIght now they have is a loser's demeanor. No life. If they can't get it together soon, Ben will need to do what Theo did in 2004-- shake things up and inject some life into this team.

 

I love how the ball comes off Hanley's bat, but he is a slug in every other aspect of the game. Manny brought a zanny goofy exuberance to the game. Hanley looks like he needs a double shot of espresso before each game.

Edited May 27, 2015 by a700hitter

[Station 13]

The hitting is downright bad. Only Pedroia and Betts have any quality AB on a nightly basis.

[wyo-sox]

This team needs to have some fight, show some resiliency and establish an identity. As soon as they are down in a game, you can turn off the game and leave the ballpark, because they roll over and die. They need a few comeback wins to get some confidence and galvanize the clubhouse. RIght now they have is a loser's demeanor. No life. If they can't get it together soon, Ben will need to do what Theo did in 2004-- shake things up and inject some life into this team.

 

I love how the ball comes off Hanley's bat, but he is a slug in every other aspect of the game. Manny brought a zanny goofy exuberance to the game. Hanley looks like he needs a double shot of espresso before each game.

 

Maybe Hanley needs to DH for a week or so, let Ortiz sit a few games out, see if that wakes up Ortiz's bat, cause I agree... Hanley on defense, specifically the outfield has not helped us.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox offense is predicated on needing Ortiz to be a big bat in the middle. I hadn't actually watched a full sox game in awhile, but I was very surprised at how slow his bat looked. Palfrey was going after him with fastballs and he couldn't seem to catch up to them. And before you correct me with the "double", the LFer fell down on a ball he should have caught. I think the league is finally recognizing that his bat has slowed and they've stopped going after him with off speed stuff.

[Spudboy]

The sox offense is predicated on needing Ortiz to be a big bat in the middle. I hadn't actually watched a full sox game in awhile, but I was very surprised at how slow his bat looked. Palfrey was going after him with fastballs and he couldn't seem to catch up to them. And before you correct me with the "double", the LFer fell down on a ball he should have caught. I think the league is finally recognizing that his bat has slowed and they've stopped going after him with off speed stuff.

 

Of course this is contrary to how Farrel explains it. When asked if Papi's bat had slowed he said no.

 

He went on to explain that Ortiz is chasing breaking pitches out of the zone "expanding the zone".

 

But you are correct in that this lineup is build around Papi's big bat in the middle of the order. Farrel offered that as well.

 

Several Sox batters are under-performing. It's the perfect storm of suck.

[jacksonianmarch]

Pelfrey was pounding the zone with fastballs and Ortiz couldn't hit them fair. Cockshots down the middle and in his power zone and he was just a tick late

[sk7326]

The bat speed thing would make a bit more sense if the strikeouts have gone up with it, but they largely haven't.

[User Name]

But the stats back up the claim that he's just not hitting fastballs as well as he did in years past.

[Spudboy]

But the stats back up the claim that he's just not hitting fastballs as well as he did in years past.

 

Well then as Jacko has suggested that could be the case.

 

I had just seen the interview and reiterated almost verbatim what Farrell had said.

 

One thing is certain, we have all seen this of Ortiz before. Maybe he can turn it around once more?

 

His plummeting BA from last year is worrisome.

[User Name]

Batting average doesn't concern me in the least. He has to earn his keep hitting for power, and he's slugging like a backup MIF.

[Kimmi]

I can see that side of the argument, certainly. But there is another side that questions why they wouldn't be looking at the short term when they're spending this much money and going over the luxury tax limit.

 

They were looking at both the short term and the long term with the Lackey trade. Kelly and Craig both have the potential to help the Sox in 2015 and for several years to come. The short term has not worked out to date, but short term planning was in involved in that trade.

 

That said, I was surprised that the Sox spent as much money as they did, then did not go the extra step to acquire another starting pitcher. I really thought they would. But I also understand their rationale behind waiting 2 or 3 months into the season to see how things panned out.

[iortiz]

They were looking at both the short term and the long term with the Lackey trade. Kelly and Craig both have the potential to help the Sox in 2015 and for several years to come. The short term has not worked out to date, but short term planning was in involved in that trade.

 

That said, I was surprised that the Sox spent as much money as they did, then did not go the extra step to acquire another starting pitcher. I really thought they would. But I also understand their rationale behind waiting 2 or 3 months into the season to see how things panned out.

 

Thing is that we could be out of the race by the time, so it could be too late, reason why I insist, I do not like that strategy.

[Kimmi]

I'm almost always a fan of Ben Cherrington's moves, but the Lackey deal was awful. I was very outspoken about it, and was the one who started the thread here about it.

 

1) I look at this team's long term future more often than not.

 

Allen Craig -- at best -- is a .800 OPS first baseman with ugly defense and poor speed. On his career years, he has put up a 2 WAR. Even if he lived up to those expectations, he would have provided only marginal value at the contract cost because lumbering first basemen are cheap. That's IF healthy and effective.

 

Joe Kelly has one pitch. At best, we were probably looking at a 8th inning guy or mediocre starter unless he developed another. Maybe he'll provide value in the bullpen.

 

2) I am fine with trading players for elite prospects. I am not fine with trading high value pieces for low ceiling projects.

 

3) Kelly's success in St Louis came in the bullpen. His starter ERA is in the mid 4s. Most of the scouting reports at the time believed he was a reliever.

 

4) They had just traded Lester for Cespedes, who only wanted to play LF. Craig doesn't have the speed or armstrength for CF or RF.

 

6) None of those guys came in trades. Fliers are for free agents.

 

Some fair points Pal, and fair enough if you were against this trade from the outset. I still think the rationale for making this trade is valid though.

 

I disagree about the value that Kelly and Craig could provide the Sox over the length of their time with the Sox versus what Lackey could provide over a year and a half, and that's even if Kelly were moved to the BP. I also disagree that Kelly only has one pitch. IMO, his secondary pitches are decent. He just needs to learn how to locate better.

 

Lastly, I would disagree with your description of Kelly and Craig as "low ceiling projects".

[Kimmi]

Thing is that we could be out of the race by the time, so it could be too late, reason why I insist, I do not like that strategy.

 

The pitching really hasn't been the problem recently though. It's been the offense.

[iortiz]

Kelly could be very good at pen. Nothing more. On the other hand Craig could have another shot. If he shits the bed again he has to go.

[iortiz]

The pitching really hasn't been the problem recently though. It's been the offense.

 

Both have been the problem. 9 of the last 25 games this team has allowed 5+ Rs.

[iortiz]

Also, just in May the Sox are 24th in ERA in all baseball. Pitching has been a problem as well.

[Kimmi]

FTR, you guys are really depressing. LOL

 

There are 116 games left to be played. Think positive!

[iortiz]

FTR, you guys are really depressing. LOL

 

There are 116 games left to be played. Think positive!

I'm just pointing out facts. Both offense and pitching have sucked.

 

On the bright side, I think that our offense will awake. Porcello, Kelly and Masterson suck and will suck as starters. Kelly and Masterson could fit well at BP. Miley and Buch could be oks but I need to see more specially from Miley. The new two kids on the block at pitching could surprise everyone but still to be seen. Let's see if we trade a solid pitcher. In the end hopefully this could be enough to grab a PO slot, otherwise I see some heads rolling by the en of the season.