Red Sox Offense – Bold Moves

[Kimmi]

Entitled my ass. The Sox I have been following have won 3 WS 49 years.

 

I just want to see good baseball.

 

In this marked it is put up or shut up. Because we have invested way more than most fans.

 

It must be fun labeling others with generalizations when one is so perfect.

 

Many Sox fans do come across as having a sense of entitlement Spud. I'm not talking about you. You are just voicing your frustration with this team, which is understandable.

 

Our current ownership has always been willing to spend, and they have done so every year. They aren't cheap. They have put a product on the field every year that at least on paper, should contend. If the Sox are still in the hunt at the trade deadline, they will make moves to try to improve the team. That's really all you can expect them to do.

 

Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it won't. When it doesn't work out, there's nothing wrong with being upset or frustrated. I am as frustrated with this team as anyone else here. That's what fans do. OTOH, demanding that the FO do something about it, or demanding that Farrell or Cherington be fired, (as if fans have any power to demand such things) comes across as entitlement. Expecting the FO to sign a big name free agent, no matter what the cost, comes across as entitlement. Complaining that the FO is cheap when they have a payroll in excess of the luxury tax limit comes across as entitlement. It's the very thing that we disliked so much about Yankees fans.

 

Maybe it's because we didn't have forums and all the instant access to everything on the internet then, but I don't remember Sox fans being like this prior to 2004. Sure, we wanted to win and we got frustrated when we didn't, but it wasn't the feeling that we were "entitled" to better, like it is now.

[Kimmi]

Yes. I feel entitled to go into my pocket to shell out $125 for a couple of decent seats to see a game, $160 if you have a couple of beers and hot dogs. So selfish.

 

If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

[a700hitter]

I have some family in Florida. My niece was a Marlins season ticket holder for a number of years. It's not like their fans are tolerant of losing in contrast to the "entitled" Red Sox fans. In the Marlins comparatively short history, they have won two championships. And guess what, in years that they stink (which is most years) their fans say so. And because their fanbase sucks balls, they completely abandon the team. If they are not winning, their fans don't go to the games and they stop following the team.

 

So, who are the "entitled" fans-- the so-called "fans" in these half-assed small markets that don't even go to games when they can get 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs and 4 drinks for $40? The Red Sox fans fill that old relic Fenway game after game for huge bucks, and when they can't get there, they loyally follow them every game on TV, radio, gamecast or by other means. Entitled? Loyal is a better description. Unfortunately, along with having a large loyal and knowledgeable fanbase comes the fact there are millions of fans can discern good baseball from bad baseball, good players from bad players etc. Even the best teams have faults and weaknesses. The weaknesses will always be what is debated. No one needs to debate the strengths. There probably aren't a lot of interesting threads from Angels fans about Mike Trout. First post: "He's great" No other posts. Close the thread.

[a700hitter]

If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

That would be the definition of a fair weather fan. Do you think that a baseball team has a greater appreciation for fans who stop going to games when they are having a bad year or the fans that stick with them through the tough times?

[a700hitter]

Complaining that the FO is cheap when they have a payroll in excess of the luxury tax limit comes across as entitlement. It's the very thing that we disliked so much about Yankees fans.

 

Most fans realize that the Red Sox have had the highest payrolls in baseball for many years. The complaint isn't that they are cheap. The complaint is that they spend so much and finish last behind teams that have one-third of our payroll. If Ben manages to finish last a third time in four years, he really needs to be fired taking into consideration how much has been spent on payroll.

[Bellhorn04]

Most fans realize that the Red Sox have had the highest payrolls in baseball for many years. The complaint isn't that they are cheap. The complaint is that they spend so much and finish last behind teams that have one-third of our payroll. If Ben manages to finish last a third time in four years, he really needs to be fired taking into consideration how much has been spent on payroll.

 

The only thing I would argue is that Ben should get a total pass for 2012. He took over a team that needed to be blown up and he was given no money for moves. Then Lucchino hired Valentine.

 

Cherington's reign as GM began in 2013 IMO. Finishing last two years in a row would be pretty bad with this level of payroll.

[a700hitter]

The offense needs to take more cross country plane trips based on the results for Napoli.

[Spudboy]

The offense needs to take more cross country plane trips based on the results for Napoli.

 

I find is curious that it took Pedroia to find an aberration or whatever in Napoli's hand position. Does the hitting coach view the same video? Is it not his resposibility to do so and to recognize changes that may be problematic?

 

I'm not blaming anyone here. But I am curious how only Pedroia noticed the "firing position" problem.

[sk7326]

For all the stats I will noodle over and for all the analysis of Napoli ... sometimes, you just need to see the ball go over the fence

[cp176]

For all the stats I will noodle over and for all the analysis of Napoli ... sometimes, you just need to see the ball go over the fence

 

I got that. Good post. Pedroia is auditioning for his next career. Great game for Miley- great game for the Sox.

[sk7326]

I find is curious that it took Pedroia to find an aberration or whatever in Napoli's hand position. Does the hitting coach view the same video? Is it not his resposibility to do so and to recognize changes that may be problematic?

 

I'm not blaming anyone here. But I am curious how only Pedroia noticed the "firing position" problem.

 

It may or may not be - of course Davis is learning the guys individual styles. But I am also not sure how much Pedroia's advice was that profound. It could be a placebo effect too - frankly what happened to Napoli this week to me is right there with what I think about the offense generally. Napoli just needed something good to happen - and this week sure qualified.

 

I just get this feeling that the Red Sox just need to find one of those weeks (and the Sox have scored 19 runs over the weekend - which is a start) where they just get off the schneid and then it's off to the races. There is not enough systemically wrong (from eye test of hitters and the numbers) to think that the lineup can't be fixed by just having a few balls not find fielders.

[Northern Star]

I find is curious that it took Pedroia to find an aberration or whatever in Napoli's hand position. Does the hitting coach view the same video? Is it not his resposibility to do so and to recognize changes that may be problematic?

 

I'm not blaming anyone here. But I am curious how only Pedroia noticed the "firing position" problem.

 

Sure sounds to me like you're calling him out for not doing his job.

[Northern Star]

If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.

 

You'd be surprised how many baseball fans disagree with this philosophy. In their eyes to call yourself a fan, you must pledge undying loyalty, and go to as many games as possible, and buy merchandise etc, regardless of the quality of the onfield product or the motives of ownership. If your franchise is being run for profit with low payroll and no commitment to winning, or sound baseball moves (like drafting well) and they lose a ton of games in the process and don't care to fix the status quo, why would you continue to line their pockets? It's counterintuitive. In any other business repeated lousy service causes you to go elsewhere, at the very least to cease patronage until things improved. Never understood why some think this shouldn't apply to team sports.

[Northern Star]

For all the stats I will noodle over and for all the analysis of Napoli ... sometimes, you just need to see the ball go over the fence

 

or maybe Jobu got a refill.

[Kimmi]

Most fans realize that the Red Sox have had the highest payrolls in baseball for many years. The complaint isn't that they are cheap. The complaint is that they spend so much and finish last behind teams that have one-third of our payroll. If Ben manages to finish last a third time in four years, he really needs to be fired taking into consideration how much has been spent on payroll.

 

I've also heard complaints that they are cheap because they aren't willing to spend above their self-imposed limit on a player like Lester, for instance.

 

As far as Ben being fired if the team finishes last again, he very well could be, but I don't necessarily think he deserves to be. I have a hard time holding Ben accountable for all the players underperforming. He can't control what happens on the field. IMO, he did his job this offseason.

[Northern Star]

I've also heard complaints that they are cheap because they aren't willing to spend above their self-imposed limit on a player like Lester, for instance.

 

As far as Ben being fired if the team finishes last again, he very well could be, but I don't necessarily think he deserves to be. I have a hard time holding Ben accountable for all the players underperforming. He can't control what happens on the field. IMO, he did his job this offseason.

 

Oh ye of unshakeable faith.

[Kimmi]

You'd be surprised how many baseball fans disagree with this philosophy. In their eyes to call yourself a fan, you must pledge undying loyalty, and go to as many games as possible, and buy merchandise etc, regardless of the quality of the onfield product or the motives of ownership. If your franchise is being run for profit with low payroll and no commitment to winning, or sound baseball moves (like drafting well) and they lose a ton of games in the process and don't care to fix the status quo, why would you continue to line their pockets? It's counterintuitive. In any other business repeated lousy service causes you to go elsewhere, at the very least to cease patronage until things improved. Never understood why some think this shouldn't apply to team sports.

 

Well, I personally would not stop watching the Sox, nor going to their games, nor buying their merchandise, so I understand why fans continue to do so. We can't help it. As I mentioned in one of the game threads, I get so frustrated with this team sometimes that I vow to quit baseball many times throughout the season. But there I am again, watching the next night.

 

That said, fans come in all varieties. Some are negative, some are positive. Some will stop watching games if the team is not doing well, some will watch no matter what. Some will give up hope if the team is 5 back in July, some will still have hope if the team is 5 back with 5 games to play. Some are "eye test" fans, some are stat geeks.

 

While I disagree with some others' views, and often don't understand the negative views, I don't question the fandom of anyone on this site. I don't think you have to pledge your undying loyalty to prove that you're a fan.

[Northern Star]

Well, I personally would not stop watching the Sox, nor going to their games, nor buying their merchandise, so I understand why fans continue to do so. We can't help it. As I mentioned in one of the game threads, I get so frustrated with this team sometimes that I vow to quit baseball many times throughout the season. But there I am again, watching the next night.

 

That said, fans come in all varieties. Some are negative, some are positive. Some will stop watching games if the team is not doing well, some will watch no matter what. Some will give up hope if the team is 5 back in July, some will still have hope if the team is 5 back with 5 games to play. Some are "eye test" fans, some are stat geeks.

 

While I disagree with some others' views, and often don't understand the negative views, I don't question the fandom of anyone on this site. I don't think you have to pledge your undying loyalty to prove that you're a fan.

 

Red Sox are not the model I'm talking about here. The Pirates of a few years back fits better, where they were pocketing revenue sharing and drafting "signable" duds with their top draft picks, on their way to a nice round 20 year losing streak.

[Kimmi]

Red Sox are not the model I'm talking about here. The Pirates of a few years back fits better, where they were pocketing revenue sharing and drafting "signable" duds with their top draft picks, on their way to a nice round 20 year losing streak.

 

Well, that makes sense. I just think it's hard to say I'm not going to be a fan anymore. I guess some people can do it, but I can understand why people would continue to support the team no matter how bad it got.

[Northern Star]

but I can understand why people would continue to support the team no matter how bad it got.

 

I'm not saying don't be a fan, you always root for the uniform above all else, but I can't see actively giving money in exchange for a purposely bad product.

[Kimmi]

Back to the topic of switch hitting, it's interesting to note that Panda batted left handed today against a left handed pitcher, and got a hit. My understanding is that he batted left handed today because he is still experiencing soreness in his left leg, but since he experienced success (albeit in only one at bat), he might decide to continue doing so.

[Kimmi]

I'm not saying don't be a fan, you always root for the uniform above all else, but I can't see actively giving money in exchange for a purposely bad product.

 

And I can understand that line of thinking too.

[sk7326]

Back to the topic of switch hitting, it's interesting to note that Panda batted left handed today against a left handed pitcher, and got a hit. My understanding is that he batted left handed today because he is still experiencing soreness in his left leg, but since he experienced success (albeit in only one at bat), he might decide to continue doing so.

 

I am certainly in favor of switch hitting if possible on principle. But I do wonder if players (and teams) were more sophisticated with when to choose which batting stance. Like if you faced Justin Masterson the decision to bat left handed is easy. But if you have 1999 Pedro Martinez in front of you (not that you have a hell of a lot of chance of hitting him anyway) with that wipeout change up, it might make sense to stay right handed to take that weapon away (or at least a heartfelt attempt). Similarly, maybe it is worth staying lefty on lefty if that is your stronger side and the lefty doesn't actually provide that classic deception or that sweeping breaking pitch.

[Spitball]

Many Sox fans do come across as having a sense of entitlement Spud. I'm not talking about you. You are just voicing your frustration with this team, which is understandable.

 

Our current ownership has always been willing to spend, and they have done so every year. They aren't cheap. They have put a product on the field every year that at least on paper, should contend. If the Sox are still in the hunt at the trade deadline, they will make moves to try to improve the team. That's really all you can expect them to do.

 

Sometimes it will work out, sometimes it won't. When it doesn't work out, there's nothing wrong with being upset or frustrated. I am as frustrated with this team as anyone else here. That's what fans do. OTOH, demanding that the FO do something about it, or demanding that Farrell or Cherington be fired, (as if fans have any power to demand such things) comes across as entitlement. Expecting the FO to sign a big name free agent, no matter what the cost, comes across as entitlement. Complaining that the FO is cheap when they have a payroll in excess of the luxury tax limit comes across as entitlement. It's the very thing that we disliked so much about Yankees fans.

 

Maybe it's because we didn't have forums and all the instant access to everything on the internet then, but I don't remember Sox fans being like this prior to 2004. Sure, we wanted to win and we got frustrated when we didn't, but it wasn't the feeling that we were "entitled" to better, like it is now.

 

Kimmi, once again you speak such wisdom. As Red Sox fans, we have become spoiled. We expect the front office to throw money at the team's problems. The money isn't our money, the numbers are unfathomable, but we believe Red Sox money should fix all problems. We hate the Yankees for that attitude, but we still expect the Sox to spend their problems away.

 

But times are a changing, and the Red Sox Nation needs to recognize the changes. The money escalates every year even if the talent doesn't. There are foolish big dollar/long term contracts signed every winter and most are handicapping their teams in the long run.

 

The money always exceeds the talent, and the years are almost always beyond the logical progression of human production. Smart teams are looking to be successful in different, more intelligent, more strategic ways. I am happy to see the Red Sox move in a smarter direction. I honestly believe the old, big spending philosophy will eventually sink any team not vested in forward and progressive methods.

 

The Royals, Rays, and Astros are currently leading the three American League divisions. Of the 30 MLB teams, they rank 17th, 28th, and 30th in salaries. Success no longer is a product of big spending but of strategic planning. As a Yankee hater, I like the change.

[BSN07]

Kimmi, once again you speak such wisdom. As Red Sox fans, we have become spoiled. We expect the front office to throw money at the team's problems. The money isn't our money, the numbers are unfathomable, but we believe Red Sox money should fix all problems. We hate the Yankees for that attitude, but we still expect the Sox to spend their problems away.

 

But times are a changing, and the Red Sox Nation needs to recognize the changes. The money escalates every year even if the talent doesn't. There are foolish big dollar/long term contracts signed every winter and most are handicapping their teams in the long run.

 

The money always exceeds the talent, and the years are almost always beyond the logical progression of human production. Smart teams are looking to be successful in different, more intelligent, more strategic ways. I am happy to see the Red Sox move in a smarter direction. I honestly believe the old, big spending philosophy will eventually sink any team not vested in forward and progressive methods.

 

The Royals, Rays, and Astros are currently leading the three American League divisions. Of the 30 MLB teams, they rank 17th, 28th, and 30th in salaries. Success no longer is a product of big spending but of strategic planning. As a Yankee hater, I like the change.

 

We got some truth and knowledge being given way here people

[Kimmi]

I am certainly in favor of switch hitting if possible on principle. But I do wonder if players (and teams) were more sophisticated with when to choose which batting stance. Like if you faced Justin Masterson the decision to bat left handed is easy. But if you have 1999 Pedro Martinez in front of you (not that you have a hell of a lot of chance of hitting him anyway) with that wipeout change up, it might make sense to stay right handed to take that weapon away (or at least a heartfelt attempt). Similarly, maybe it is worth staying lefty on lefty if that is your stronger side and the lefty doesn't actually provide that classic deception or that sweeping breaking pitch.

 

That certainly makes sense SK. Switch hitters do tend to have better splits batting from their weak side than lefties or righties do batting against the same handed pitcher, but if a particular pitcher has bad splits against LH hitters, it would make sense to bat LH against him rather than switching to the weak side. I'm guessing, however, that for a switch hitter who is used to seeing the ball come out of a pitcher's hand a certain way, that is still easier said than done.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, once again you speak such wisdom. As Red Sox fans, we have become spoiled. We expect the front office to throw money at the team's problems. The money isn't our money, the numbers are unfathomable, but we believe Red Sox money should fix all problems. We hate the Yankees for that attitude, but we still expect the Sox to spend their problems away.

 

But times are a changing, and the Red Sox Nation needs to recognize the changes. The money escalates every year even if the talent doesn't. There are foolish big dollar/long term contracts signed every winter and most are handicapping their teams in the long run.

 

The money always exceeds the talent, and the years are almost always beyond the logical progression of human production. Smart teams are looking to be successful in different, more intelligent, more strategic ways. I am happy to see the Red Sox move in a smarter direction. I honestly believe the old, big spending philosophy will eventually sink any team not vested in forward and progressive methods.

 

The Royals, Rays, and Astros are currently leading the three American League divisions. Of the 30 MLB teams, they rank 17th, 28th, and 30th in salaries. Success no longer is a product of big spending but of strategic planning. As a Yankee hater, I like the change.

 

Thanks Spitball. Solid post. I have never been a fan of big contracts. I like the change too.

[Bellhorn04]

Thanks Spitball. Solid post. I have never been a fan of big contracts. I like the change too.

 

I'm not sure any of us are actually fans of big contracts. But I think most of us do expect the Red Sox to have a big payroll because they have big revenue.

[sk7326]

Kimmi, once again you speak such wisdom. As Red Sox fans, we have become spoiled. We expect the front office to throw money at the team's problems. The money isn't our money, the numbers are unfathomable, but we believe Red Sox money should fix all problems. We hate the Yankees for that attitude, but we still expect the Sox to spend their problems away.

 

But times are a changing, and the Red Sox Nation needs to recognize the changes. The money escalates every year even if the talent doesn't. There are foolish big dollar/long term contracts signed every winter and most are handicapping their teams in the long run.

 

The money always exceeds the talent, and the years are almost always beyond the logical progression of human production. Smart teams are looking to be successful in different, more intelligent, more strategic ways. I am happy to see the Red Sox move in a smarter direction. I honestly believe the old, big spending philosophy will eventually sink any team not vested in forward and progressive methods.

 

The Royals, Rays, and Astros are currently leading the three American League divisions. Of the 30 MLB teams, they rank 17th, 28th, and 30th in salaries. Success no longer is a product of big spending but of strategic planning. As a Yankee hater, I like the change.

 

Years is more important than money (and position players get more consideration here). The Sox should be big spenders - they charge the most of any team, and you want to see it in the organization. Smart vs $$$ is a false choice.

[a700hitter]

Smart vs $$$ is a false choice.

Yep. it is.