Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[mvp 78]

f*** Joe Kelly sideways.

[cp176]

Joe Kelly has finally reached a point where he is a good trade candidate.

 

1. free agent ace

 

2. trade for a solid number 2

 

3. E-Rod

 

Porcello - Miley - Owens

 

and anybody else who is still standing when the dust settles . Possible candidates could be Buccholtz, Kelly, Wright , Johnson.

 

Time to take a little different approach as opposed to the one that hasn't worked. We keep hoping that Buccholtz will finally be healthy that Kelly might finally be getting there and that Porcello will become that magical pitcher that we all for some reason think that he could.

[SoxnCycles]

Joe Kelly has finally reached a point where he is a good trade candidate.

 

1. free agent ace

 

2. trade for a solid number 2

 

3. E-Rod

 

Porcello - Miley - Owens

 

and anybody else who is still standing when the dust settles . Possible candidates could be Buccholtz, Kelly, Wright , Johnson.

 

Time to take a little different approach as opposed to the one that hasn't worked. We keep hoping that Buccholtz will finally be healthy that Kelly might finally be getting there and that Porcello will become that magical pitcher that we all for some reason think that he could.

 

If Buchholz is healthy, and he will be by the start of next year, they pick up his option and he's in the rotation ahead of E-rod, Owens and anyone else already on the team.

[cp176]

If Buchholz is healthy, and he will be by the start of next year, they pick up his option and he's in the rotation ahead of E-rod, Owens and anyone else already on the team.

 

A healthy Buchholz is an ace. No one really is going to argue that he is better than anyone we currently have I hope. Pretty safe to say that everybody knows the problem here too. I would agree - when healthy he is ahead of Porcello, Miley, Kelly and anybody else on the team. Red Sox get to decide whether to count on him being healthy or not. What's it going to be - 13 million for whatever he gives you or not. Shouldn't impact E-Rod's status with the team at all.

[Elktonnick]

Buchholtz is never healthy that's the problem.

[sk7326]

Buchholtz is never healthy that's the problem.

 

Indeed - although he actually provided (in market terms) $13M or so of value this year before he got hurt ... the thresshold for him to be worth his contract is so low that even 20 starts a year at his usual level would ring the bell.

[Spudboy]

I am of the belief that planning a roster around a part time player is stupid regardless what WAR and "market terms" seem to indicate.

 

I'd much rather have a guy I can play all season.

 

He'll likely be back.

 

Too bad.

[Kimmi]

There is no way that E-Rod starts the year anywhere but Boston next year if he is healthy. He is no ace just yet by any means but he at least gives some sense of confidence to the fan base when he takes the mound. It isn't about what is fair or about how to juggle a pitching staff, it is about doing what is best for your team. it might be a little bit different if he wasn't already pitching better than almost all of the current members of the starting rotation. I think that even the Red Sox management can see this one the right way.

 

You are probably right that Eduardo will be pitching in Boston to start next season. I just don't think it would be a bad idea to start him in AAA, provided Dombrowski acquires a #1 and Kelly continues to pitch well. Also provided that Buchholz is healthy and his option is picked up. Miley also has options so he could be the odd man out.

 

I understand that Eduardo should be in the rotation above most of the other guys. I would just much rather have him in AAA and not lose a pitcher who doesn't have options left than to let him start in Boston and have to DFA another pitcher due to roster constraints.

 

It's very cliche' but it's also very true - you can never have enough pitching.

[Kimmi]

ERod in AAA? Lol no.

 

There are much worse ideas.

[Kimmi]

I am of the belief that planning a roster around a part time player is stupid regardless what WAR and "market terms" seem to indicate.

 

I'd much rather have a guy I can play all season.

 

He'll likely be back.

 

Too bad.

 

That depends on the cost/value of that player. Good Buchholz for 1/2 a season is well worth $13 million. That being said, the FO must plan on the very real likelihood that Buchholz will not pitch the entire season. Depth, depth, depth.

[Spudboy]

How about getting pitchers that can go an entire season.

 

I will never concede that 13 mil is a value for any part time pitcher.

 

If it were 5-7 mil with incentives, maybe.

 

Planning for failure is just dumb. No matter how one rationalizes it.

[mvp 78]

Yeah, I just don't believe Buch is a good value at $13M. He's either injured or pitching like garbage.

[cp176]

You are probably right that Eduardo will be pitching in Boston to start next season. I just don't think it would be a bad idea to start him in AAA, provided Dombrowski acquires a #1 and Kelly continues to pitch well. Also provided that Buchholz is healthy and his option is picked up. Miley also has options so he could be the odd man out.

 

I understand that Eduardo should be in the rotation above most of the other guys. I would just much rather have him in AAA and not lose a pitcher who doesn't have options left than to let him start in Boston and have to DFA another pitcher due to roster constraints.

 

It's very cliche' but it's also very true - you can never have enough pitching.

 

Your basic premise is of course right - you can never have enough pitching. The problem is that if it is bad pitching it doesn't matter how many guys you have. You can never have enough good solid pitching. I think that Dombrowski wants to win regardless of what anyone's options might be. I'm thinking that they want fans butts back in the seats. Sending Rodriguez down so that pitchers who really aren't as good are able to pitch because of their options, would be an inexcusable mistake. If he is healthy, he won't be going anywhere. If I had to bet today, I would also bet that Owens is in the starting rotation next year as well.

[iortiz]

How about getting pitchers that can go an entire season.

 

I will never concede that 13 mil is a value for any part time pitcher.

 

If it were 5-7 mil with incentives, maybe.

 

Planning for failure is just dumb. No matter how one rationalizes it.

 

Yeah, I just don't believe Buch is a good value at $13M. He's either injured or pitching like garbage.

 

this!

 

Yes, planning for failure is dumb. Buch can't stay healthy, stay away from him. I have my hopes high on DD. I have heard very nice things about him, hopefully he assembles a good pitching staff for once and for all.

[SoxnCycles]

Yeah, I just don't believe Buch is a good value at $13M. He's either injured or pitching like garbage.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=buchhcl01&t=p&year=

 

I see two bad games there. One of them really bad.

 

Can you point out the string of "garbage" starts from this year, because I don't see it.

 

Pretty tough to pitch like garbage and have a 3.26 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP.

 

I'm going to love it when Dombrowski picks up his option, just to see all the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing. LOL

[Orange Juiced]

Don't look now, but Porcello has been pretty darned good recently.

 

Last 2 starts:

7.0 ip, 5 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 5 k

8.0 ip, 5 h, 3 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 13 k

TOT: 15.0 ip, 10 h, 3 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 18 k, 0.60 era, 0.73 whip, 12.5 k/9

 

And then going back to his last 6 starts. One was awful (July 29), but the other 5 were all good to excellent. Even with that awful stinker, over the last 6 games, his numbers have been: 35.0 ip, 2.83 era, 1.23 whip, 9.0 k/9

 

So he's getting it done.

 

Porcello is improving. Kelly is pitching very well. Owens and Rodriguez have been pretty good. Miley has been solid. The rotation has been pretty good recently. I still want an 'ace' but these guys are doing alright.

[SoxnCycles]

Don't look now, but Porcello has been pretty darned good recently.

 

Last 2 starts:

7.0 ip, 5 h, 0 r, 0 er, 0 bb, 5 k

8.0 ip, 5 h, 3 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 13 k

TOT: 15.0 ip, 10 h, 3 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 18 k, 0.60 era, 0.73 whip, 12.5 k/9

 

And then going back to his last 6 starts. One was awful (July 29), but the other 5 were all good to excellent. Even with that awful stinker, over the last 6 games, his numbers have been: 35.0 ip, 2.83 era, 1.23 whip, 9.0 k/9

 

So he's getting it done.

 

Porcello is improving. Kelly is pitching very well. Owens and Rodriguez have been pretty good. Miley has been solid. The rotation has been pretty good recently. I still want an 'ace' but these guys are doing alright.

 

Looks like Porcello has finally figured out that he needs to get back to relying on his sinker.

From WEEI:

 

"His sinker was working well, which has been a main reason for his success over the last two starts.

 

'I’m basically forcing myself to throw it. That was kind of the commitment after I came off the DL — I’m going to throw my sinker and find it,” Porcello said. “If I get beat with that pitch, then so what? In order for me to have some success over here in the long run, I’ve got to find that pitch. I just took the pressure off and said, ‘Screw it, I’m throwing it.'”

[Bellhorn04]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=buchhcl01&t=p&year=

 

I see two bad games there. One of them really bad.

 

Can you point out the string of "garbage" starts from this year, because I don't see it.

 

Pretty tough to pitch like garbage and have a 3.26 ERA and a 1.21 WHIP.

 

I'm going to love it when Dombrowski picks up his option, just to see all the hand-wringing and teeth-gnashing. LOL

 

In fairness, I think the criticism is that in the years he pitches well, Buch gets hurt. The years he doesn't get hurt, he pitches lousy.

 

It's an oversimplification, but it's not that far off the mark. Pretty much what's happened the last 4 years.

 

To me picking up the option still makes sense. It's only a $13 million commitment, and if he does well they have another $13 million option for 2017. It was a pretty team-friendly deal done by Theo.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Bellhorn04

[Dojji]

It's basically half ace money for approximately half an ace. Good deal as long as you're not asking the guy to be your #1

[a700hitter]

In fairness, I think the criticism is that in the years he pitches well, Buch gets hurt. The years he doesn't get hurt, he pitches lousy.

 

It's an oversimplification, but it's not that far off the mark. Pretty much what's happened the last 4 years.

 

To me picking up the option still makes sense. It's only a $13 million commitment, and if he does well they have another $13 million option for 2017. It was a pretty team-friendly deal done by Theo.

DD has a pitching staff that needs improvement externally. He has a logjam of mediocre pitchers and rookies. He probably needs to give one of the rookies a path to the rotation and the others will be depth. If he adds two top of the rotation pitchers, he has a game of musical chairs with the mediocre choices and Buch: he will have Miley, Porcello, Kelly, and Buchholz vying for 2 rotation spots. He can probably move Kelly to the pen where he can also be a depth option. Porcello has an albatross of a contract, so he will be very difficult to move. I think he will be in the 2016 rotation. It will come down to Miley and Buch. Neither is a bullpen pitcher. One needs to go. It will come down to which one is the more tradeable commodity. Will it be Miley with a reasonable size contract for a reliable 200 innings and a 4+ ERA or Buch with a reasonable salary who can be outstanding for half season stretches? They need to pick up his option for additional flexibility in moving forward. My bet is that no one will offer much talent for a guy with a bad elbow until he proves that he is healthy. He will not be able to establish that he is healthy until Spring Training. Most teams have their pitching settled by then. My bet is that DD doesn't wait until Spring Training and trades Miley in the offseason.

[SoxnCycles]

In fairness, I think the criticism is that in the years he pitches well, Buch gets hurt. The years he doesn't get hurt, he pitches lousy.

 

It's an oversimplification, but it's not that far off the mark. Pretty much what's happened the last 4 years.

 

To me picking up the option still makes sense. It's only a $13 million commitment, and if he does well they have another $13 million option for 2017. It was a pretty team-friendly deal done by Theo.

 

I think fans tend to go over board with the hyperbole because they know he's capable of pitching better than he has in certain seasons.

It's frustrating, but the fact remains that 13 mil is a good deal for the Sox, even if he can't pitch an entire season.

[sk7326]

You are probably right that Eduardo will be pitching in Boston to start next season. I just don't think it would be a bad idea to start him in AAA, provided Dombrowski acquires a #1 and Kelly continues to pitch well. Also provided that Buchholz is healthy and his option is picked up. Miley also has options so he could be the odd man out.

 

I understand that Eduardo should be in the rotation above most of the other guys. I would just much rather have him in AAA and not lose a pitcher who doesn't have options left than to let him start in Boston and have to DFA another pitcher due to roster constraints.

 

It's very cliche' but it's also very true - you can never have enough pitching.

 

It's Boston - you don't play the options game with somebody who is one your five best starters. Nobody is starving. Now if you suggest sitting Rodriguez (and Owens to a lesser extent) to sign the 1995 Braves, I'm all in. But the threshhold of the starting five for him to sit is very high.

[cp176]

It's Boston - you don't play the options game with somebody who is one your five best starters. Nobody is starving. Now if you suggest sitting Rodriguez (and Owens to a lesser extent) to sign the 1995 Braves, I'm all in. But the threshhold of the starting five for him to sit is very high.

 

Agree here - no question. It looks so far as though Dombrowski is using some common sense. No one on the planet truly felt that Ramirez should be left in the outfield. I think he helped the coaching staff by actually saying what anyone with a baseball brain already knew. He knows we need two pitchers - real pitchers. Not two more to add to the proverbial landfill of veteran players looking for a home. It will be interesting to see what he does with Buccholtz. He won't pay him to sit and occupy space no matter how good he might on occasion actually be.

Porcello is in

Rodriguez is in

 

the rest really are up for grabs. i don't think that anything is going to be given to anyone because of a contract.

 

I'm curious to know what you think about Betts possibly playing some right field. Could that be a trade audition? I hope not but you never know.

[Kimmi]

How about getting pitchers that can go an entire season.

 

I will never concede that 13 mil is a value for any part time pitcher.

 

If it were 5-7 mil with incentives, maybe.

 

Planning for failure is just dumb. No matter how one rationalizes it.

 

It's not planning for failure. It's planning to have a very good pitcher in your rotation. Even though his history suggests otherwise, there is no guarantee that he will get injured. The $13 mil is worth the risk.

 

The key is to have the depth to back him up if/when he does get injured.

[Kimmi]

Your basic premise is of course right - you can never have enough pitching. The problem is that if it is bad pitching it doesn't matter how many guys you have. You can never have enough good solid pitching. I think that Dombrowski wants to win regardless of what anyone's options might be. I'm thinking that they want fans butts back in the seats. Sending Rodriguez down so that pitchers who really aren't as good are able to pitch because of their options, would be an inexcusable mistake. If he is healthy, he won't be going anywhere. If I had to bet today, I would also bet that Owens is in the starting rotation next year as well.

 

Eduardo has not really been all that great. He might be better than some of the other pitchers that we've had, but some of those other pitchers may have turned the corner. It's not that I have anything against him. I really like him and think he will be a very good pitcher for us. That being said, he is still developing, and starting the season in AAA is not necessarily a bad idea, depending on how the rest of the rotation pans out.

 

Personally, I think it would be a big mistake to start both Eduardo and Owens in the rotation.

[cp176]

Eduardo has not really been all that great. He might be better than some of the other pitchers that we've had, but some of those other pitchers may have turned the corner. It's not that I have anything against him. I really like him and think he will be a very good pitcher for us. That being said, he is still developing, and starting the season in AAA is not necessarily a bad idea, depending on how the rest of the rotation pans out.

 

Personally, I think it would be a big mistake to start both Eduardo and Owens in the rotation.

 

If I had one game that we needed to win right now, believe it or not, i would start Porcello. That being said, Rodriguez would be up next. i'm not nuts about saying that with respect to a 22? year old kid who may or may not become better than a middle of the rotation arm. Too many maybes, ifs, and hope sos with the rest of the bunch. I truly hope that it doesn't boil down to having Owens in the starting rotation early next year. i don't think that it will. I have faith in Dombrowski's knowledge of the game. i don't think that a rotation featuring Buccholtz and Kelly is going to get off the ground. I agree with you about depth and if we pick up a couple of pitchers in the off-season, at least one of those two will help add some. Possibly i am a dreamer but I really don't think that Dombrowski will go with the same old arms hoping that they might be better next year.

[a700hitter]

Eduardo has not really been all that great. He might be better than some of the other pitchers that we've had, but some of those other pitchers may have turned the corner. It's not that I have anything against him. I really like him and think he will be a very good pitcher for us. That being said, he is still developing, and starting the season in AAA is not necessarily a bad idea, depending on how the rest of the rotation pans out.

 

Personally, I think it would be a big mistake to start both Eduardo and Owens in the rotation.

 

I agree with you. If you have 2 rookies in the rotation that would be another year of rebuilding and pitching failure. I think we should let the kids fight it out for one of the spots. The others should go back to AAA hone their craft and be ready if needed.

[cp176]

I agree with you. If you have 2 rookies in the rotation that would be another year of rebuilding and pitching failure. I think we should let the kids fight it out for one of the spots. The others should go back to AAA hone their craft and be ready if needed.

 

I agree as well as long as a couple of other things happen-

 

Buccholtz - Porcello - Miley - Kelly - Rodriguez

 

If that is the starting rotation going in to next year, it won't make any difference at all where Owens, Johnson , or anybody else winds up. Sad song that we have heard all year.

 

I would hope and doubt that that will be the case. Truly expect there to be 2 additions to the rotation.

[a700hitter]

Anyone who thinks that Ben's plan is about to bear fruit is seriously mistaken-- at least with regard to the pitching. I am not sure that he had any specific pitching plan or strategy except to collect mediocre garbage. From today's Herald:

 

Since 2004, the team that finished last in the AL in starters’ ERA has averaged just 70 wins the next season.

 

This year, six of the eight best starting rotations belong to teams expected to be playing in the postseason. No team with a bottom-third rotation is even sniffing playoff contention.

 

DD has his work cut out for him.

Edited September 4, 2015 by a700hitter

[cp176]

He does have his work cut out for him but i do think that we will see some additions and/or changes that at least will look like they make sense. We will have at least one starter who has a successful track record to go with Porcello and E-Rod. After that - who knows. Miley- Buccholtz-Kelly- Owens-Johnson-Wright. I still think that he will add two.