Set ups and closers

[a700hitter]

Embry, Tomlin and Williamson were lights out that post season.

[seabeachfred]

You're actually trying to make a case that Grady didn't f*** up. This may be the dumbest thing you've ever said on here. I'm sorry.

 

With all due respect mvp you should be sorry because you either wanted to get in a dig at me or you can't interpret what is written to save your damn life. Look at the last short paragraph. Read what it said. Do you still think I'm saying Grady was right in keeping Pedro in? What does PEDRO'S ASS SHOULD

HAVE BEEN IN THE SHOWERS THAT EIGHTH INNING IN THE FIRST PLACE? Come on, you're not that dense.

Edited December 30, 2014 by seabeachfred

[cp176]

Pedro already thought he waa done when he got to the dugout after the 7th. The "who here could tell Pedro he was coming out" nonsense is a total strawman. I hate saying that word as it is overused, but it applies here.

 

I can't see that anyone is supporting or defending Grady Little here. I thought he was done after 7. He came back out. The rest I am sure everyone can remember. If Pedro Martinez was asked in that dugout if he had anything left, what do you suppose his response was. Could we agree that before he got fat he was the most dominant pitcher in the game? Mega millionaire with an ego the size of the city. A first ballot hall of famerI hope. I wonder if you have or are a coach. If you are or have been I don't have to tell you what it's like to work with someone who thinks they are and may in fact be a star. How do think Francona did with Manny? You think he was able to get through to him. What I am saying is that unless you have been in a similar situation, you have no idea of the amount of nuts it takes to get what you want from a player of that status. Talk is cheap. I don't feel bad for Grady Little - he made a mistake. My guess, the majority of the coaches in the game - Pedro wants in- he stays in. Sad but true.

[Dojji]

you're forgetting something cp. Pedro had an "I'm done" ritual when he thought his work was finished and it was time for him to come out of the game, where he points to the sky as he walks off.

 

 

Lot of starters have tells like that when they finish an inning and think they're done. Schill I know used to point to Tek (or whoever was the catcher, but it was usually Tek) and say "good job Tek!" or something along those lines Plenty of other examples.

 

Pedro performed that ritual "tell" going to the dugout after the bottom of the 7th inning. That's his sign that he thinks he's done and it's the pen's job to take it from there. Gump had no excuse not to know that, all the fans did. That's how we're so sure it was Gump leaving him in rather than just Pedro getting tired. Pedro had given his "tell," he was tired and thought he was not going to be asked to pitch the 8th, and Gump either didn't notice, or thought he knew better.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Dojji

[cp176]

you're forgetting something cp. Pedro had an "I'm done" ritual when he thought his work was finished and it was time for him to come out of the game, where he points to the sky as he walks off.

 

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Lot of starters have tells like that when they finish an inning and think they're done. Schill I know used to point to Tek (or whoever was the catcher, but it was usually Tek) and say "good job Tek!" or something along those lines Plenty of other examples.

 

Pedro performed that ritual "tell" going to the dugout after the bottom of the 7th inning. That's his sign that he thinks he's done and it's the pen's job to take it from there. Gump had no excuse not to know that, all the fans did. That's how we're so sure it was Gump leaving him in rather than just Pedro getting tired. Pedro had given his "tell," he was tired and thought he was not going to be asked to pitch the 8th, and Gump either didn't notice, or thought he knew better.

 

Hey Dojji - That is a post I like. I am not sure I buy into what you are saying, but I do like the post. With all the pointing skyward in the game today, who knew - not me. I certainly agree with you that he shouldn't have left the dugout to start the next inning. I remember Pedro pointing upward many times. I miss that truly powerful arm on the mound.

[cp176]

Hey Dojji - That is a post I like. I am not sure I buy into what you are saying, but I do like the post. With all the pointing skyward in the game today, who knew - not me. I certainly agree with you that he shouldn't have left the dugout to start the next inning. I remember Pedro pointing upward many times. I miss that truly powerful arm on the mound.

 

I am also not sure I want to play poker with you!

[mvp 78]

With all due respect mvp you should be sorry because you either wanted to get in a dig at me or you can't interpret what is written to save your damn life. Look at the last short paragraph. Read what it said. Do you still think I'm saying Grady was right in keeping Pedro in? What does PEDRO'S ASS SHOULD

HAVE BEEN IN THE SHOWERS THAT EIGHTH INNING IN THE FIRST PLACE? Come on, you're not that dense.

 

You spent a whole paragraph bloviating about how going to Pedro wasn't a bad move. So were you just wasting all of our times with that nonsense?

 

There is no defending what Grady did, but you seemed to be making a case for it.

[mvp 78]

I can't see that anyone is supporting or defending Grady Little here. I thought he was done after 7. He came back out. The rest I am sure everyone can remember. If Pedro Martinez was asked in that dugout if he had anything left, what do you suppose his response was. Could we agree that before he got fat he was the most dominant pitcher in the game? Mega millionaire with an ego the size of the city. A first ballot hall of famerI hope. I wonder if you have or are a coach. If you are or have been I don't have to tell you what it's like to work with someone who thinks they are and may in fact be a star. How do think Francona did with Manny? You think he was able to get through to him. What I am saying is that unless you have been in a similar situation, you have no idea of the amount of nuts it takes to get what you want from a player of that status. Talk is cheap. I don't feel bad for Grady Little - he made a mistake. My guess, the majority of the coaches in the game - Pedro wants in- he stays in. Sad but true.

This doesn't remotely respond to the issue I had with your post. You said that no one here would have the testicular fortitude to take the ball from Pedro. When Pedro was in the dugout, he didn't think he was coming back in for the 8th. Grady put him in that position. You created a strawman for seemingly no reason.

[Spudboy]

You may need to explain what a strawman is to cp176.

[cp176]

You may need to explain what a strawman is to cp176.

 

You two meatballs just keep sticking together. You are right and everybody else is wrong. I realize when I am up against it. Your superior intellect is driving me right off the board. Hide behind your collected data, I have some golf to play. Oh - also - being the numbskull that I am, I have to go check the stock market. Looks like another good day for me. Are you really Red Sox fans? Come on - you aren't right.

[mvp 78]

You two meatballs just keep sticking together. You are right and everybody else is wrong. I realize when I am up against it. Your superior intellect is driving me right off the board. Hide behind your collected data, I have some golf to play. Oh - also - being the numbskull that I am, I have to go check the stock market. Looks like another good day for me. Are you really Red Sox fans? Come on - you aren't right.

 

Wow. You are such an *******. Get this out of your system before the mods reappear in April.

[iortiz]

Seems like Papelbon is still driving on Mo's highway LOL. Hadn't checked his numbers but last year he posted a 2.04 ERA, 39 SV, 66 IP, 8.5 SO/9, 2.8 WAR. Just like the good wines. His contract has worth every penny thus far. Edited December 31, 2014 by iortiz

[Spudboy]

You two meatballs just keep sticking together. You are right and everybody else is wrong. I realize when I am up against it. Your superior intellect is driving me right off the board. Hide behind your collected data, I have some golf to play. Oh - also - being the numbskull that I am, I have to go check the stock market. Looks like another good day for me. Are you really Red Sox fans? Come on - you aren't right.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. I was the one that pointed you towards fangraphs when you asked what some new metrics meant. I was and am only attempting to help you. However, if you feel that I am picking on you it will be a talksox first since I am usually not involved in such things and in this case it is clear that I am not.

 

Whatever dude.

 

At least you appear correct with regard to superior intellect.

[Spudboy]

Seems like Papelbon is still driving on Mo's highway LOL. Hadn't checked his numbers but last year he posted a 2.04 ERA, 39 SV, 66 IP, 8.5 SO/9, 2.8 WAR. Just like the good wines. His contract has worth every penny thus far.

 

Not to the Phillies. They have no need for an expensive closer now. But they seem to be stuck with him now.

[iortiz]

Not to the Phillies. They have no need for an expensive closer now. But they seem to be stuck with him now.

 

Yeah.. but it is not his fault, he is getting the job done, it's kind of the point.

[iortiz]

IMO Detroit should have done everything in their hands to get this guy last year.

[User Name]

Yeah.. but it is not his fault, he is getting the job done, it's kind of the point.

 

Yeah, like a lot of other closers on s***** teams. There's a reason why all of the other playoff-bound teams (including Detroit) with question marks on their BP didn't make the effort to go after him in a trade even though he was clearly available. You may want to let go of Papelbon's jockstrap as soon as possible. He's not that good.

[iortiz]

Not that good? hahaha He's been one of the best closers in the last 10 years, period, like it or not, his numbers speak by itself. His name means pure consistency an durability, very rare on relief arms. He is different, I've been saying since his departure.

 

Plus, You said that he was on a decline LOL!, you were death wrong. Thinking in a retrospective way and yet haven't made the numbers, we could have saved a lot money and wins with all the busts signed in the recent years.

Edited December 31, 2014 by iortiz

[User Name]

Let me put it this way: You think you know better than people throughout the industry, but you don't.

[iortiz]

Well, it seems so LOL, me and few others here and there projected that he was going to be ok... and well... he is.

 

I make my opinions based on what I see, probably I could help the industry as you say LOL...

 

He is pretty much the best closer behind Mo in the last 10 years in terms of consistency and durability.

 

Let me put it this way, he is a guaranteed bet, son.

[Spudboy]

Paps biggest problems is that he gets paid Starter money to pitch only 50-75 inning each year.

 

You have to be really spectacular to be worth what he makes.

 

Simply, he makes to much money for what he offers his team.

[iortiz]

When you post what he has posted, you can make that kind of money. Not even a handful have posted those numbers, reason why he is special and can not be treated like the others. Thing is, aside Mo nobody has posted those number consistently and with durability, and he has. Plus, these days, he is making in a year basis what he was making in 2011 which is a bargain considering the tons of money spent in fat busts signed in recent years while taxing us wins as well. Make the numbers you'll be surprised. Edited December 31, 2014 by iortiz

[iortiz]

Plus, the problem at the time was not the year basis since you were already paying him 12 M, but the commitment throughout the 4 year since looked like "risky". Time is speaking by itself and the contract has worth every penny. Edited December 31, 2014 by iortiz

[User Name]

Paps biggest problems is that he gets paid Starter money to pitch only 50-75 inning each year.

 

You have to be really spectacular to be worth what he makes.

 

Simply, he makes to much money for what he offers his team.

 

That's the main problem with him. Not only that, but even in a year in which he got extremely lucky (.247 BABIP/2.7% HR/FB) he was still 12th in the league in WAR, sandwiched between around 20 relievers who are either better or almost as good, for a fraction of the price. The "Rivera highway" bs is nonsense, and Papelbon's just not that good anymore.

[iortiz]

That's the main problem with him. Not only that, but even in a year in which he got extremely lucky (.247 BABIP/2.7% HR/FB) he was still 12th in the league in WAR, sandwiched between around 20 relievers who are either better or almost as good, for a fraction of the price. The "Rivera highway" bs is nonsense, and Papelbon's just not that good anymore.

 

10 years of service back him up. Zero lucky here. The main problem at the time was not the year basis but the long of the contract since people like you were saying that he was going to decline and tons of BS, and he isn't. These days his numbers are solid and still posting what he has posted in his career (even better).

 

No matter how much you want to rationalise this, no matter how much you hate him, no matter how much you want too make a fool of yourself, no matter how much you want to believe your own lies, THE GUY IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER CLOSERS... and yes... he is driving in Mo's highway hahaha.

Edited December 31, 2014 by iortiz

[a700hitter]

You two meatballs just keep sticking together. You are right and everybody else is wrong. I realize when I am up against it. Your superior intellect is driving me right off the board. Hide behind your collected data, I have some golf to play. Oh - also - being the numbskull that I am, I have to go check the stock market. Looks like another good day for me. Are you really Red Sox fans? Come on - you aren't right.

Do you live in Florida? I disgree with you about the Grady Little game 7. In fact, if I was within 100 yards of him at that time, the cops would have had to pull me off of him. That being said, it is all just opinion here. Some people here insist on capitulation-- not too many thankfully. Spud is definitely not one of them. Don't make a few nasty exchanges make you leave the board.

 

As for bullpens, their use has evolved throughout the years. I think they will continue to evolve. I don't think it is farfetched to think that multiple inning relievers like Goose Gossage will not emerge and then their success will be copied. Whitey Herzog had some interesting ideas that were and would still be considered radical that he never implemented. He felt strongly that the best use of pitchers was to change the pitcher every 3 innings and pitch guys more often. Of course, the players union would go nuts. That would tank the market for starters.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon has not been the Phillies problem. The rest of that team hasfallen apart and aged in dog years. Paps has earned his $. I'll never understand why some Sox fans hate him. He was a great comfort coming out of the pen, even when he was struggling. Koji had an all-time great season. It was incredible to watch, but it was just one season.

[a700hitter]

Wow. You are such an *******. Get this out of your system before the mods reappear in April.

LOL!! Lighten up. He called you a meatball. That is far more refined than what most of us have called each other at one time or another.

[iortiz]

Papelbon has not been the Phillies problem. The rest of that team hasfallen apart and aged in dog years. Paps has earned his $. I'll never understand why some Sox fans hate him. He was a great comfort coming out of the pen, even when he was struggling. Koji had an all-time great season. It was incredible to watch, but it was just one season.

 

Yup. That's pretty much my point.

 

I like Koji and all he did specially in the second half of 2013 and in POs, but he is way far to fill Pap's shoes. They are not comparable. I think no one is BOS' history at the closing spot.

[cp176]

Wow. You are such an *******. Get this out of your system before the mods reappear in April.

 

I am actually not an *******. I'm really a pretty nice guy. And Spudboy - not lumping you with this guy. And I am too sensitive to be involved in a forum like this. I really didn't know what I was getting into. This is new to me. You know old school guy right. It does look like an awful lot of cheap shots from behind the keyboard. Sorry - just can't get used to it. I am a face to face kind of guy. Have fun!