2014 MLB Playoff

[a700hitter]

 

For that matter, we could probably appreciate having Anthony Rizzo on the team, the man seems to have come into his own this year and actually outperformed the guy he was traded for -- and of course, now we have neither of them.

But those trades did net us Alex Webster and Rubby for Rizzo.

[Bellhorn04]

But those trades did net us Alex Webster and Rubby for Rizzo.

 

Oh well, we also got a major addition by subtraction on Crawford & Beckett.

[a700hitter]

Oh well, we also got a major addition by subtraction on Crawford & Beckett.

so we got Webster and rubby and $ for Rizzo. Terrible move.

[Bellhorn04]

so we got Webster and rubby and $ for Rizzo. Terrible move.

 

I thought you were an advocate of trading unproven prospects for proven talent.

[a700hitter]

I thought you were an advocate of trading unproven prospects for proven talent.

I'm an advocate of smart management. In the end, they didn't trade an unproven prospect for proven talent. In the end,they swapped a blue chip prospect for 2 busted prospects and $. Keep on trying Bell. I can do this all day long.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm an advocate of smart management. In the end, they didn't trade an unproven prospect for proven talent. In the end,they swapped a blue chip prospect for 2 busted prospects and $. Keep on trying Bell. I can do this all day long.

 

Ted, when the Sox traded for Gonzalez, you were pumped that the Sox traded for him and didn't care about the prospects. In fact, you were still dogging the FO because you said that Boggs (AGon's agent) ran circles around the Sox FO and they were going to have to pay an enormous price for him (his FA deal was very reasonable).

 

You just hate the FO regardless of what they do!

[Bellhorn04]

I'm an advocate of smart management. In the end, they didn't trade an unproven prospect for proven talent. In the end,they swapped a blue chip prospect for 2 busted prospects and $. Keep on trying Bell. I can do this all day long.

 

Yes, I know exactly what you can do, believe me LOL. But 'in the end, they didn't trade an unproven prospect for proven talent'? You can do a lot better than that.

[seabeachfred]

But those trades did net us Alex Webster and Rubby for Rizzo.

 

For that I feel so damn happy I could s***!!!!!

[seabeachfred]

I thought you were an advocate of trading unproven prospects for proven talent.

 

Come on Bell---how can you even try to argue that point. We lost Rizzo who is now an authentic slugging first baseman with a great career ahead of him and in return after all was said and done were two miserably inconsistent pitchers who can give you one good game and three or four bad ones. Of course, I warned everyone who would listen that De La Rosa was a pack of Confederate quarters who you couldn't depend on except on rare occasions and Webster was even worse. You think we can win with those two cruds in our rotation? No Way Jose!!!!!!!!!

[Northern Star]

But those trades did net us Alex Webster and Rubby for Rizzo.

 

Who's Alex Webster, and is he any better than Allen Webster?

[a700hitter]

Yes, I know exactly what you can do, believe me LOL. But 'in the end, they didn't trade an unproven prospect for proven talent'? You can do a lot better than that.

The trade nets out as Webster and Rubby and $ for Rizzo. Try to tell me how that was a good thing. Right now you are just blustering nonsense in an attempt to bust chops. I can do this all day. If you are trying to get under my skin, you should know better than that after all this time. All my ballbuster friends are gone. I miss some of them. I enjoy an argumentative beat down.

[a700hitter]

Who's Alex Webster, and is he any better than Allen Webster?

 

 

My apologies to the late great Alex Webster - Hall of Fame football player, gambler and actor. Allan Webster should never be confused for Alex Webster.

[Bellhorn04]

The trade nets out as Webster and Rubby and $ for Rizzo. Try to tell me how that was a good thing. Right now you are just blustering nonsense in an attempt to bust chops. I can do this all day. If you are trying to get under my skin, you should know better than that after all this time. All my ballbuster friends are gone. I miss some of them. I enjoy an argumentative beat down.

 

You're not getting under my skin at all, trust me. It's called disagreeing.

 

We freed up a ton of money with that deal, and we won a World Series with guys that were signed with some of the money. That's a pretty big positive right there that you seem to be completely dismissing.

 

Most Sox fans feel the AGon trade was a huge benefit for the team. Your position is in the minority.

[Northern Star]

It's called disagreeing.

 

No it isn't.

[Northern Star]

My apologies to the late great Alex Webster - Hall of Fame football player, gambler and actor. Allan Webster should never be confused for Alex Webster.

 

Allen Webster should not be confused for a major league pitcher. He's s***.

[a700hitter]

You're not getting under my skin at all, trust me. It's called disagreeing.

 

We freed up a ton of money with that deal, and we won a World Series with guys that were signed with some of the money. That's a pretty big positive right there that you seem to be completely dismissing.

 

Most Sox fans feel the AGon trade was a huge benefit for the team. Your position is in the minority.

I am not dismissing anything. Sure trading AGon was a huge benefit from that point on, but it can't be separated from the transaction obtaining AGon that cost us probably the best hitting prospect that the organization produced since Ellsbury. Giving them credit for trading AGon after giving up Rizzo for him would be like giving someone credit for climbing out of a hole that they dug for themselves.

Edited November 2, 2014 by a700hitter

[seabeachfred]

Allen Webster should not be confused for a major league pitcher. He's s***.

 

NS---Once again you pull no punches and get right down in the trench. I love it. You're a tough bastard. And Webster does suck muddy canal water.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Did Allen Webster suck in the MLB thus far? Absolutely.

 

Do I think Webster takes the #5 slot of the rotation out of spring training? Yup.

 

He showed some improvements in September (2.63 ERA), and though usually that's garbage time pitching, he did face the Royals and Orioles, both of whom had something to play for at the time. I think he showed juuuust enough to keep the Red Sox intrigued with his potential as a starter.

 

My thoughts? Put him in the bullpen. His stuff will play better there. Let's not get confused about this, Allen Webster's stuff is incredible, he just refuses to attack the zone. There are a lot of guys like this who turned into relievers (Dellin Betances and Wade Davis come to mind). I think that's where Webster ends up, as a late inning reliever. And a really good one at that. Same with RDLR and Workman (though Workman's ceiling is probably a 7th inning guy whereas RDLR and Webster's ceilings are more of 8th inning/closer)

[Dojji]

I am not dismissing anything. Sure trading AGon was a huge benefit from that point on, but it can't be separated from the transaction obtaining AGon that cost us probably the best hitting prospect that the organization produced since Ellsbury. Giving them credit for trading AGon after giving up Rizzo for him would be like giving someone credit for climbing out of a hole that they dug for themselves.

 

I feel about the same. I think we make the playoffs in 2011 if we don't do the Adgon trade, and being able to simply slot Rizzo in when Youk started to break down was a smarter and a simpler play (both good things). Rizzo would have been good enough to give us the same chance to win Napoli does, although there's nothing wrong with Napoli as a big league 1Bman, it's just that Rizzo is still 25yo and Napoli is... well... not.

 

Sometimes the smartest, gutsiest play is to resist the temptation to overreact. They missed the boat on the initial Adgon trade and Crawford signing. Kudos to them for fixing their own mess, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they made the mess in the first place, and going back to the originaltopic, it doesn't mean they shouldn't think twice when a chance to make the same mistake of overpaying for someone else's breakout talent comes their way.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am not dismissing anything. Sure trading AGon was a huge benefit from that point on, but it can't be separated from the transaction obtaining AGon that cost us probably the best hitting prospect that the organization produced since Ellsbury. Giving them credit for trading AGon after giving up Rizzo for him would be like giving someone credit for climbing out of a hole that they dug for themselves.

 

When Rizzo was 21 and played his first MLB season, he hit .141/.281/.242. People here would have given up on him after that. He hit .103/.333/.103 w RISP.

 

The next season he hit .285/.342/.463, .338/.403/.559 w RISP.

 

Almost like players have to make adjustments once their weaknesses are exposed.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I feel about the same. I think we make the playoffs in 2011 if we don't do the Adgon trade, and being able to simply slot Rizzo in when Youk started to break down was a smarter and a simpler play (both good things). Rizzo would have been good enough to give us the same chance to win Napoli does, although there's nothing wrong with Napoli as a big league 1Bman, it's just that Rizzo is still 25yo and Napoli is... well... not.

 

Sometimes the smartest, gutsiest play is to resist the temptation to overreact. They missed the boat on the initial Adgon trade and Crawford signing. Kudos to them for fixing their own mess, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they made the mess in the first place, and going back to the originaltopic, it doesn't mean they shouldn't think twice when a chance to make the same mistake of overpaying for someone else's breakout talent comes their way.

 

Well, if we didn't trade for and pay AGon, we would have also resigned Beltre. He's been pretty ok since signing that deal with the rangers.

 

A 1B/3B combo of Rizzo and Beltre would have been nice.

[a700hitter]

Did Allen Webster suck in the MLB thus far? Absolutely.

 

Do I think Webster takes the #5 slot of the rotation out of spring training? Yup.

 

How many Rookies do you think will be in the 2015 rotation?

[a700hitter]

Ted, when the Sox traded for Gonzalez, you were pumped that the Sox traded for him and didn't care about the prospects. In fact, you were still dogging the FO because you said that Boggs (AGon's agent) ran circles around the Sox FO and they were going to have to pay an enormous price for him (his FA deal was very reasonable).

 

You just hate the FO regardless of what they do!

The highlighted statement is just silly and childish. I will always scrutinize the FO. They are the ones who are responsible for putting the team on the field. Scrutiny is not hate. Some moves are good some are bad. Their record speaks for itself, and it is very mixed with 2 last place finishes sandwiched around a World championship. Their record is almost schizophrenic. It is certainly not very consistent.

 

You are right that I did like the acquisition of AGon, but that doesn't change the result that it was a mistake in the final analysis. Just because I was also wrong about it doesn't make them right. The fact that I liked the AGon move when it happened disproves your assertion that I always hate the FO. It is pretty clear that the FO made a very bad move in the end getting Webster and Rubby and $ for Rizzo. It's just that simple.

[a700hitter]

Well, if we didn't trade for and pay AGon, we would have also resigned Beltre. He's been pretty ok since signing that deal with the rangers.

 

A 1B/3B combo of Rizzo and Beltre would have been nice.

Agreed.

[seabeachfred]

Did Allen Webster suck in the MLB thus far? Absolutely.

 

Do I think Webster takes the #5 slot of the rotation out of spring training? Yup.

 

He showed some improvements in September (2.63 ERA), and though usually that's garbage time pitching, he did face the Royals and Orioles, both of whom had something to play for at the time. I think he showed juuuust enough to keep the Red Sox intrigued with his potential as a starter.

 

My thoughts? Put him in the bullpen. His stuff will play better there. Let's not get confused about this, Allen Webster's stuff is incredible, he just refuses to attack the zone. There are a lot of guys like this who turned into relievers (Dellin Betances and Wade Davis come to mind). I think that's where Webster ends up, as a late inning reliever. And a really good one at that. Same with RDLR and Workman (though Workman's ceiling is probably a 7th inning guy whereas RDLR and Webster's ceilings are more of 8th inning/closer)

 

I think you might be right on that my friend. I'll tell you this SFF, Webster will never amount to a hill of cow puke unless he learns to attack the strike zone and stop pitching scared. A reliever who will not attack the zone is destined for utter failure, but if he pitches differently in a relief role I think he might turn out fine there. As for RLR, he blows so hot and cold as a starter that I wonder if we'd see the same type of inconsistent crap we saw from him as a starter. Again, though, I think both have the stuff to be top notch relievers if only they could screw their heads on right.

[seabeachfred]

I feel about the same. I think we make the playoffs in 2011 if we don't do the Adgon trade, and being able to simply slot Rizzo in when Youk started to break down was a smarter and a simpler play (both good things). Rizzo would have been good enough to give us the same chance to win Napoli does, although there's nothing wrong with Napoli as a big league 1Bman, it's just that Rizzo is still 25yo and Napoli is... well... not.

 

Sometimes the smartest, gutsiest play is to resist the temptation to overreact. They missed the boat on the initial Adgon trade and Crawford signing. Kudos to them for fixing their own mess, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they made the mess in the first place, and going back to the originaltopic, it doesn't mean they shouldn't think twice when a chance to make the same mistake of overpaying for someone else's breakout talent comes their way.

 

Doj---did you by any chance read Francona's book? In it he details all the BS that took place in those meetings about how to try and win, keep the fans coming into the park, and get top notch TV ratings. Werner was complicit in this farce with his emphasis on getting "sexy" players, what ever the hell that meant. He was more worried about TV rating than winning according to Tito. Many now believe Theo was forced into those signings because Larry wanted to win big NOW, Werner wanted those TV ratings, and Prune Face abrogated his responsibility when he didn't stand up to those two baboons and simply let Epstein run the show as he promised he would let him do after the gorilla incident after the 2005 season, and because by 2010 Lucchino once again had maneuvered his way into baseball operations. That was a place and is a place he is not qualified for and we keep seeing him do this time and again while the Prune looks the other way.