The rebuild thread.

[Spudboy]

Also, I am wondering what the Sox payroll looks like for next year.

[sk7326]

Watching ESPN's roundup and Keith Law and Manny Acta talking about it. What has been interesting is that Boston's trades have been made specifically with improving the 2015 club in mind. They are clearly loading up for next season - and not worrying about the prospect inventory (which is considerable already). I am not sure I agree with the strategy but it makes sense, particularly if they do re-sign Lester (I put odds at less than 50-50, but not insane).

[jd98]

Also, I am wondering what the Sox payroll looks like for next year.

 

Compared to this year, assuming they are going to offer Koji a qualifying offer which he would surely accept, I think they would still have around $40-45 million left to spend on next year.

[crc2120]

Stephen Drew traded to Yankees...

[Palodios]

Lineup:

 

Holt

Pedroia

Ortiz

Napoli

Cespedes

Craig/Nava

Bradley/Victorino

Xander

Vazquez

 

Rotation:

Buchholz

Rubby De La Rosa

Workman

Webster

Ranaudo

 

 

Well s***.

[gojohn99]

Dont' forget Joe Kelly, the key to this WHOLE day...

[d-money]

Are the sox really improving for 2015? They have traded their two best proven pitchers.I have doubts they will resign lester in the offseason.Idk if they have gotten better for 2015

[Station 13]

We traded 2 stud SP for meh at best guys.

[sk7326]

Are the sox really improving for 2015? They have traded their two best proven pitchers.I have doubts they will resign lester in the offseason.Idk if they have gotten better for 2015

 

It is the theory that makes sense. Once you figure the blue chippers are not available, door #2 is how can we get better for next year? They have a lot to do with the rotation, but they solved their near term corner outfield disaster zone. The pitching is wait and see - they do have the prospect inventory to make a move on that front.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Overall, a bad day, in my opinion. We'll see how it plays out in the off season as the rest of this season will be unwatchable.

[Palodios]

So in total....

 

Outbound: Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront, Miller, Gomes, Drew, AJ.

 

Inbound: Cespedes, Craig, Johnson, two top 100 mlb pitching prospects, money.

 

Meanwhile, Carp is fuming.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Palodios

[Spudboy]

So in total....

 

Outbound: Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Doubront, Miller, Gomes, Drew, AJ.

 

Inbound: Cespedes, Craig, Johnson, two top 100 mlb pitching prospects, money.

 

Meanwhile, Carp is fuming.

 

Carp can be let go in the waiver period. Somebody will want him.

[RedSoxNC84]

Lineup:

 

Holt

Pedroia

Ortiz

Napoli

Cespedes

Craig/Nava

Bradley/Victorino

Xander

Vazquez

 

Rotation:

Buchholz

Rubby De La Rosa

Workman

Webster

Ranaudo

 

 

Well s***.

 

Buchholz shouldn't even be up there at this point. I'd rather start f***ing Joe Kelly.

[Northern Star]

That was one huge f***ing firesale. I've never seen a team trade away so much of it's rotation before. Let me know of any comparisons out there.

 

Really disappointed with the return, disappointed with the lack of Moneyball type players. Really questioning the plan for 2015 - they must be hoping for something in FA because what we got today is relative crap as far as building a winning team is. If that's the intention - buy a quick winner - then they are going in the opposite direction than I want - acquire good prospects and build a young controllable core.

[Behindenemylines]

I'm thinking today was the first step in the rebuild for 2015. They can take an inventory of their young arms the remaining part of 2014. They can see how Cespedes and Craig adjust to Fenway. By the end of the season they will know what they have and what they need. I don't know how some of you are posting starting lineups and staffs for 2015. It is way to early to be doing that. If BC goes into the spring with rosters like that he should be fired. The Sox have cleared a lot of $$$$$$ to be used this winter.

[reYoukilis]

Sounds like Cespedes is only here to appease the demanding Red Sox fans. The real change is coming in the offseason.

[seabeachfred]

I'm thinking today was the first step in the rebuild for 2015. They can take an inventory of their young arms the remaining part of 2014. They can see how Cespedes and Craig adjust to Fenway. By the end of the season they will know what they have and what they need. I don't know how some of you are posting starting lineups and staffs for 2015. It is way to early to be doing that. If BC goes into the spring with rosters like that he should be fired. The Sox have cleared a lot of $$$$$$ to be used this winter.

 

Without two standout pitchers, not one but two, this team is headed for the outhouse again next season. To me this is all so simple. Luchintsyino, the real GM, does not want to pay the going rate for players. They want to win on the cheap and Prune Face is once again allowing Larry the Louse to meddle and screw up what was a team that had a great future.

[sk7326]

That was one huge f***ing firesale. I've never seen a team trade away so much of it's rotation before. Let me know of any comparisons out there.

 

Really disappointed with the return, disappointed with the lack of Moneyball type players. Really questioning the plan for 2015 - they must be hoping for something in FA because what we got today is relative crap as far as building a winning team is. If that's the intention - buy a quick winner - then they are going in the opposite direction than I want - acquire good prospects and build a young controllable core.

 

I think the idea was that they HAVE a young controllable core, but they needed to fill in gaps. Their return does improve horrible positions for 2015. I agree, I wish they got more prospects out of this - at the same time when you see how little Tampa got for David Price, it is possible the market was not as hot as it seemed. They do have a lot of money available and a ton of prospect inventory - so the path to getting better, and the assets to do so, are there. The depth of rotation caliber starters in the organization is staggering. What the org was missing was some pop, so they fixed that here a little bit. After having some time to calm down, I see the approach here. Key for the final 2 months is to see whether the kids are going to be alright - I suspect they will. As I noted, the problem with the Sox this season was dithering and a lack of commitment to the kids who they decided were good enough to play. Wasted valuable PAs for no good reason - soaking them up with useless reclaimation projects. There is a lot of work to do for 2015, but definitely a way to get there.

[sk7326]

Without two standout pitchers, not one but two, this team is headed for the outhouse again next season. To me this is all so simple. Luchintsyino, the real GM, does not want to pay the going rate for players. They want to win on the cheap and Prune Face is once again allowing Larry the Louse to meddle and screw up what was a team that had a great future.

 

Only one part of the "great future" left - that is the saving grace here. All the components of the "great future" are still here.

[Mr Tibbs]

I feel like today is a sad day in Red Sox Nation. Not just for the fact that we got taken in the trades, but the way we treated one of our home grown players. IMO Lester deserved better treatment from the FO, and to be fair maybe behind closed doors he was. If just feels wrong the way they treated him like a chess piece in the public eye. I hope to see him back, but I have serious doubts.

 

Overall I'm kind of ok with throwing away the rest of this season and rebuilding, but FFS at least get some prospects for the rebuild!!

[SoxFanForsyth]

If we got prospects in our trades, we would be 3-5 years out from competing.

 

The point of this deadline was to compete in 2015, and that's exactly what they did. This offense is set for 2015. Maybe they go make a huge deal for Tulo, who knows, but for right now, this offense is good enough to win the division.

 

Go work on the starting pitching this offseason, and you're in good shape. Throw some dollars at Lester and Shields or Scherzer and Shields or, hell, go throw money at Scherzer and Lester and win the whole thing in 2015.

[a700hitter]

If we got prospects in our trades, we would be 3-5 years out from competing.

 

The point of this deadline was to compete in 2015, and that's exactly what they did. This offense is set for 2015. Maybe they go make a huge deal for Tulo, who knows, but for right now, this offense is good enough to win the division.

 

Go work on the starting pitching this offseason, and you're in good shape. Throw some dollars at Lester and Shields or Scherzer and Shields or, hell, go throw money at Scherzer and Lester and win the whole thing in 2015.

I am sure that Ben would have gotten a top prospect like pederson, taveras etc. if one was available. Obviously, no one was offering top tier prospects for 2 months of lester. Those type of guys are more valuable to small and medium market teams than they are to us. With his choice being between second tier prospects and current pieces, he opted for current pieces. Regardless of all the desire to rebuild from the ground up, I don't think a sub .500 team for a 3 rd year out of 4 was something they could stomach. They were going to seek to build a competitive .500 team for 2015 whether they did it now or in the offseason. Ben got part of his off season work done. We needed an outfielder or 2. What we have now is pathetic. He obtained 2 guys for next year's OF. Craig has been a good hitter so they must be banking on this being an off year for him. I don't know Kelly, but I would guess that he will move right into the rotation. Edited August 1, 2014 by a700hitter

[Spudboy]

I'm thinking today was the first step in the rebuild for 2015. They can take an inventory of their young arms the remaining part of 2014. They can see how Cespedes and Craig adjust to Fenway. By the end of the season they will know what they have and what they need. I don't know how some of you are posting starting lineups and staffs for 2015. It is way to early to be doing that. If BC goes into the spring with rosters like that he should be fired. The Sox have cleared a lot of $$$$$$ to be used this winter.

 

Too much common sense and fact in this post.

 

Quit it!!!

[KCBRUIN]

If we got prospects in our trades, we would be 3-5 years out from competing.

 

The point of this deadline was to compete in 2015, and that's exactly what they did. This offense is set for 2015. Maybe they go make a huge deal for Tulo, who knows, but for right now, this offense is good enough to win the division.

 

Go work on the starting pitching this offseason, and you're in good shape. Throw some dollars at Lester and Shields or Scherzer and Shields or, hell, go throw money at Scherzer and Lester and win the whole thing in 2015.

 

This... So much this.

[example1]

If they wanted to make a splash to secure a young, cost-controlled ace they probably have enough pieces to get Chris Sale from Chicago. The White Sox would be really hard pressed to turn down a package like Owens, Escobar, Betts and Devers for Sale. Chicago has been part of a number of big trades over the past decade, which makes me think they'd be willing to capitalize on a huge prospect overpay. It might cost Bogaerts. That would be tough (and couldn't include all those other pieces) but if you look at Sale's performance by age he's among the game's best and a better bet to be dominant over the next 5 years than Lester is.

[Palodios]

If they wanted to make a splash to secure a young, cost-controlled ace they probably have enough pieces to get Chris Sale from Chicago. The White Sox would be really hard pressed to turn down a package like Owens, Escobar, Betts and Devers for Sale. Chicago has been part of a number of big trades over the past decade, which makes me think they'd be willing to capitalize on a huge prospect overpay. It might cost Bogaerts. That would be tough (and couldn't include all those other pieces) but if you look at Sale's performance by age he's among the game's best and a better bet to be dominant over the next 5 years than Lester is.

 

There are plenty of very good pitchers who are going to free agency in 2016. The Reds have Mat Latos, Johnny Cueto and Mike Leake all hitting free agency after next season. The Nationals have Zimmerman and Fister (followed by Stasburg and Gio the following year). The Red Sox could hang some of the second tier guys like Eduardo and Eduardo and still get a very solid #2/3 type pitcher.

[SoxFanForsyth]

There are plenty of very good pitchers who are going to free agency in 2016. The Reds have Mat Latos, Johnny Cueto and Mike Leake all hitting free agency after next season. The Nationals have Zimmerman and Fister (followed by Stasburg and Gio the following year). The Red Sox could hang some of the second tier guys like Eduardo and Eduardo and still get a very solid #2/3 type pitcher.

 

They could go after a Zimmerman or a Fister, sure.

 

But, if they have a chance to go after a guy like Chris Sale and have Lester in the rotation? You chase that dream 100% of the time.

 

As we've seen, prospects are no guarantees. If you can turn a few of those into an elite starter, you do it. Think about it - Vazquez is going to be a very good catcher, particularly defensively. Swihart is going to be a beast, but if you can go with Vazquez, you're can afford to dish Swihart. If you are trading for Sale, you can afford to dish Owens. Betts probably has to go in this deal too, which would hurt, but if the Sox really believe in JBJ, Betts is blocked. Maybe you can get away with sending over one of the Eduardos along with Owens and Swihart, since they're top 60 guys.

 

So Owens, Betts/Eduardo, and Swihart for Sale? That's 2-3 top 15 prospects. That's a deal thats tough to turn down. Who knows, maybe Sale isn't available. I just think Cherrington is going to be extremely aggressive in finding top talent via the trade market, particularly top starting pitching.

[Behindenemylines]

I think BCs number one task this winter is to find a new ace. Whether that is bringing Lester back, or trading for someone like Sale (or a young #1), it needs to get done. You sign another FA starter, hope Buchholtz finds himself, and then from the bunch of young arms you would expect two to be ready. You save some $$$$$ if you have to go for another starter during the 2015 season.

[Palodios]

But, if they have a chance to go after a guy like Chris Sale and have Lester in the rotation? You chase that dream 100% of the time.

 

Chris Sale is a pipe dream. He is cost controlled for the rest of his career, and isn't going anywhere unless the Red Sox overpay or if he is damaged goods. If your team is only one or two pieces from another championship, you make that trade, but not now.

 

Cueto might actually be available. He has a 2.05 ERA (3.39 career) and 0.92 WHIP. He is currently leading the NL with 162 innings and a 5.9 H/9, with an outside shot of a CY Young. After the lowball David Price deal, maybe he won't cost nearly as much as we're used to seeing these guys go for.

[example1]

Chris Sale is a pipe dream. He is cost controlled for the rest of his career, and isn't going anywhere unless the Red Sox overpay or if he is damaged goods. If your team is only one or two pieces from another championship, you make that trade, but not now.

 

I think the bold part is what we're saying here. They might be able to afford to overpay in talent to get the best possible player at the most critical position. The stats put Sale among the elite.

 

If they are willing to go all in on Stanton I would think Sale would get some consideration too. You said it would make sense if they were one or two pieces away... that's my stance too, except in situations where you can be picking up a centerpiece in his early prime. He's 5th in WAR among starting pitchers from 2012-present, just behind Verlander and just ahead of Wainwright and Darvish. But Verlander is 30, Wainwright is 31 and Darvish is 26. Sale is 24. The other players who are nearly that young on the list are Kershaw (25) and Strasburg (24), neither of whom I imagine would be available. The Chi Sox are further from competing now than those teams are.