9/2 v Detroit

[Palodios]

The Red Sox have been shutout 6 times this year... when Lackey is on the mound. Wow.

[rjortiz]

I'm curious to see what the odds are tomorrow. I'm guessing that it's anywhere from +110 to -110 for the Sox.

[Navafan29]

I'd rather lose to the Tigers now than in the ALCS.

[rjortiz]

I'd rather lose to the Tigers now than in the ALCS.

 

Obviously

[User Name]

It is not so much that they can't hit curve balls...they can't seem to foul off curve balls. They are stricken paralyzed by them. I just hope the league has not found the real achilles heel of this offense. They are not free swingers but that is the core of their offensive process. They don't seem to have an answer for a pitcher that can throw breaking balls for strikes which is not the same thing as getting hitters to chase breaking balls out of the zone.

 

jung, what evidence do you have regarding the notion that the Red Sox, as a team, have trouble hitting curveballs?

[User Name]

According to Fangraphs, the Red Sox' second runs wRC against any pitch is the curveball, and the worst is the changeup. I don't know where you came up with this jung.

[sk7326]

This team, more than any other team I've seen, has the ability to look like absolute world beaters one day and then look like a team that couldn't take 1/3 from the Astros the next.

 

The lineup is incredibly pitchable. That's the 11th shut out of the season. Nearly 10% of their games they're shut out.

 

Just throw strikes and you can get out with 2 or fewer runs

 

... this is a very hard lineup to pitch to because there are no real soft spots now that Middlebrooks resembles a major league hitter again.

 

Their approach still paid dividends today! They did not get the hits when they needed them - and some bad luck with the DPs ... but there was no shortage of chances here. We knew this was not going to be an unbeaten finish.

[SoxFanForsyth]

According to Fangraphs, the Red Sox' second runs wRC against any pitch is the curveball, and the worst is the changeup. I don't know where you came up with this jung.

 

Yah the change up absolutely eats the Sox alive. And it has for a few years now.

[sk7326]

Yah the change up absolutely eats the Sox alive. And it has for a few years now.

 

Life with a lot of lefties - just get thrown a lot of changeups. Team's going to be ok - today was just one of those days.

[SoxFanForsyth]

... this is a very hard lineup to pitch to because there are no real soft spots now that Middlebrooks resembles a major league hitter again.

 

Their approach still paid dividends today! They did not get the hits when they needed them - and some bad luck with the DPs ... but there was no shortage of chances here. We knew this was not going to be an unbeaten finish.

 

The approach that they have is to grind out at bats, get to the middle relievers which is always the soft underbelly of any team, and make their move there.

 

The problem is that when pitchers throw a lot of strikes, they don't increase their aggressiveness and are consistently falling behind in the count and having to swing at the pitchers pitch. That's where this team struggles, when a pitcher has the ability to throw strikes consistently.

[User Name]

BB-Ref has a category for those pitchers who barely walk anyone and have around average K-rates like Fister, labeling them finesse pitchers, who the Red Sox have wrecked to the tune of a .847 OPS this season.

 

Other than power (or really soft-tossing) lefties with good changeups, the Sox have had little trouble against finesse righties, or righties in general. What you say is just not true SFF.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

The wave? Seriously?? Just stay home if you're going to do that s***

 

I almost lost my s*** when they were doing the wave when we were losing a game to the Yankees. I said out loud "We're losing and we're doing the wave? Are you f***ing serious?" Got a couple dirty looks, but I really get into live games. I understand people are trying to have a good time, but that's something that should be done when we're winning only.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

I have had about enough of the Chevy truck commercial on MLB.tv. Stop it!!!

 

Keep on preaching.

[Thunder]

RSFFL, your mojo starts tomorrow.

[Station 13]

RSFFL, your mojo starts tomorrow.

 

you're in no position to make demands.

[mvp 78]

I almost lost my s*** when they were doing the wave when we were losing a game to the Yankees. I said out loud "We're losing and we're doing the wave? Are you f***ing serious?" Got a couple dirty looks, but I really get into live games. I understand people are trying to have a good time, but that's something that should be done when we're winning only.

 

The wave sucks, Sweet Caroline sucks, beach balls suck, guys who go up and down the rows during an AB suck, annoying drunk college kids suck, pink hats suck, cotton candy sucks, overpriced beer sucks, the dude that gets stuck selling the penants sucks and scalpers also suck.

[sk7326]

The approach that they have is to grind out at bats, get to the middle relievers which is always the soft underbelly of any team, and make their move there.

 

The problem is that when pitchers throw a lot of strikes, they don't increase their aggressiveness and are consistently falling behind in the count and having to swing at the pitchers pitch. That's where this team struggles, when a pitcher has the ability to throw strikes consistently.

 

Kinda sorta ... a dude with fringy stuff is still getting hit ... even today, Fister had a good stretch, but there was a lot of good contact, poor results. Moore, Price - they can do that to anyone.

[jung]

jung, what evidence do you have regarding the notion that the Red Sox, as a team, have trouble hitting curveballs?

 

As usual total numbers can be deceiving. Just like the total runs tally is deceiving. The Sox do score a lotta' runs but they do not score them in the traditional wall banging fashion of the Tigers and it does not prevent them from being dominated by certain kinds of pitchers, particularly pitchers the rely on their breaking pitches. The fact that the Sox can hit a breaking ball does not mean much since there are pitchers out there that throw pretty mediocre breaking balls. I am more concerned with the games where they are dominated by pitchers with good breaking balls or games where they are dominated generally. So looking at the shut outs:

 

Johnson April 5th…threw more curves and sliders than FB's and Change ups combined and threw them for a high strike rate, especially curves. Does not even have much of a FB any longer and his change is not a pitch he relies on. Still has a decent Sinker but is no longer a power pitcher.

 

Colon April 23… threw more sinkers than any other pitch. This was a dominating performance from a power pitcher as I consider a pitching performance that included that many Sinkers thrown for strikes to be a power pitching exhibition.

 

Holland May 3…Holland is not the same kind of power pitcher as Colon or Moore but I still consider this a traditional power pitcher showing. Threw mostly FB's and Sinkers with the Change his most important other pitch. That is now one of the hallmarks of starters that are power pitchers. The change is an important pitch for the power pitcher.

 

Tillman June 14….Fairly even mix of pitches, threw 20 Curve balls only half for strikes. Does not have an overpowering FB and does not depend on his Change up

 

Weaver July 7….. Another guy like Fitzer, no longer really even has a FB worth talking about

 

Moore July 22…traditional power pitcher's game was overpowering and again as is the case with the other two power pitchers in this grouping, depends on a good Change

 

Tillman July 26….Fairly even mix of pitches again did not have overpowering stuff and threw 22 Curves with a much higher strike count than July 14. Again did not rely on a Change for anything

 

Oberholtzer, Aug 5….Fairly even mix of pitches…threw more Curves than any other pitch than the FB, threw half of them for strikes and again does not posses an overpowering FB nor depend on his Change.

Nolasco, Aug 23….29 sliders, 14 curves, 32 FB's again not overpowering. Threw the breaking balls for a higher strike count than any other pitch. Does not depend on a Change for anything

Fitzer today, don't have the count as yet but Fitzer threw a ton of Curves for strikes in many cases leaving the Sox with their bats on their shoulders.

 

I am only concerned here with the kinds of pitching exhibitions that stop the Sox in their tracks. Looking at this year's shut outs, there is a far higher number generated from breaking ball pitchers that neither have overpowering stuff nor rely on a Change for anything than there are from power pitchers with good FB's or Sinkers relying on a Change as their most important secondary pitch.

 

The only three shut out games thrown by power pitchers were the Holland, Moore and Colon games. Colon threw far more Sinkers than FB's but I consider the Sinker a power pitchers pitch especially when thrown with the strike consistency that Colon had. So his game goes into the power pitcher category as does Moores. Moore's shutout was truly a power pitching exhibition and he was overpowering. You could almost argue Holland either way but I am comfortable putting his game in the power pitcher's category

 

The rest are a collection of breaking ball/curve masters, some with hardly a FB that they can throw for a strike without being hurt. All of them threw curves and sliders for high strike counts and none relied on a Change for anything. That makes seven shut outs from curve/slider breaking ball masters all throwing them for high strike counts and only three from traditional power pitchers depending on a Change as an important secondary pitch.

[User Name]

jung, you said the Sox can't hit curveballs. The overall numbers suggest you were wrong. And saying "they can be deceiving" and picking apart a couple of starts from either pitchers having great seasons (Tillman, Weaver, Colon) or complete unknowns (Oberholtzer) proves very little.

 

Your initial point was that a pitcher with a decent curveball can shut the Sox down, and that's just not true. And funny that you mention JJ, who the Sox shelled several times this season.

[Bellhorn04]

It's tunnel vision, which you get from watching all your team's games and focussing on them. Every other team has weaknesses too, or at least games when they get shut down. The Tigers got shut out yesterday and that was the 9th time for them.

[User Name]

Pitching numbers are way up this season. Every one of the top offensive teams has been shut out or has scored one run in a significant number of games. No need trying to turn that into a "weakness in approach" that the team just doesn't have.

 

The Sox' one identifiable problem this season has been hitting lefties, which has been a consistent problem all year. The rest is selective memory.

[mvp 78]

All the post-9/11/01 changes suck too: singing of God Bless America in 7th inning and no bags allowed.

[jung]

I am not talking about other teams weaknesses nor stating that other teams do not have them. Looking at the actual game stats and the pitchers that pitched those games, the Sox have been dominated more often this year by curve ball/slider = breaking ball pitchers than they by have overpowering FB pitchers who use the Change as a key secondary pitch. You can argue about the rest all you want. That is and was the point.

 

Taking into account ALL Curve balls which means mediocre curve balls says nothing, proves nothing, means nothing.

 

Your initial point was that a pitcher with a decent curveball can shut the Sox down, and that's just not true. And funny that you mention JJ, who the Sox shelled several times this season.

 

And the comment I made that you quoted above is exactly true, not only based on the actual data but based on a working knowledge of the English language. In fact the comment above is indisputable.

[User Name]

Also, i just noticed that jung said Holland is "not a power pitcher". Dude throws smoke (93.5 MPH average fastball velocity) with an 8.3 K/9. jung, i don't mean it as an insult, but you don't know what you're talking about here.

[User Name]

I am not talking about other teams weaknesses nor stating that other teams do not have them. Looking at the actual game stats and the pitchers that pitched those games, the Sox have been dominated more often this year by curve ball/slider = breaking ball pitchers than they by have overpowering FB pitchers who use the Change as a key secondary pitch. You can argue about the rest all you want. That is and was the point.

 

Taking into account ALL Curve balls which means mediocre curve balls says nothing, proves nothing, means nothing.

 

 

 

And the comment I made that you quoted above is exactly true, not only based on the actual data but based on a working knowledge of the English language. In fact the comment above is indisputable.

 

jung, this makes no sense at all, and it absolutely strays away from your initial point. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts, but you're clearly wrong here.

[Palodios]

Pitching numbers are way up this season. Every one of the top offensive teams has been shut out or has scored one run in a significant number of games. No need trying to turn that into a "weakness in approach" that the team just doesn't have.

 

The Sox' one identifiable problem this season has been hitting lefties, which has been a consistent problem all year. The rest is selective memory.

 

I don't know if this is just anecdotal observation or a trend, but it seems to me that the Red Sox haven't done a very good job of using platoons.

 

Salty has hit very poorly against lefties this year, and yet he continues to get starts against lefties. Hopefully David Ross will do a good job of filling that hole.

 

There are three guys with a difference of .200 OPS in splits. Salty, Stephen Drew and Daniel Nava. These guys need to be platooned.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Palodios

[User Name]

I don't know if this is just anecdotal observation or a trend, but it seems to me that the Red Sox haven't done a very good job of using platoons.

 

Salty has hit very poorly against lefties this year, and yet he continues to get starts against lefties. Hopefully David Ross will do a good job of filling that hole.

 

There are three guys with a difference of .200 OPS in splits. Salty, Stephen Drew and Daniel Nava. These guys need to be platooned.

 

Not anecdotal evidence. It's an oft-discussed problem which even the sports talking heads have picked up on.

[Palodios]

Not anecdotal evidence. It's an oft-discussed problem which even the sports talking heads have picked up on.

 

Really? Haven't heard anyone talk about it much around here. That being said, the Sox have some good righthanded bats, they just haven't used them as much as they should.

[seabeachfred]

I almost lost my s*** when they were doing the wave when we were losing a game to the Yankees. I said out loud "We're losing and we're doing the wave? Are you f***ing serious?" Got a couple dirty looks, but I really get into live games. I understand people are trying to have a good time, but that's something that should be done when we're winning only.

 

Makes me wonder why you didn't get some backup from other fans who felt the same way you did 305----or did you? I guess there is still a residue of pink hats and hanger-oners who get freebees to games and go just to be seen and "have some fun." s*** on them; they should stay home and watch the game on television. They are not real diehard Red Sox fans and, moreover, chances are they couldn't tell you any of the scored from the 2004 and 2007 post season games. You did well bringing that to those dingbats' attention.

[seabeachfred]

I don't know if this is just anecdotal observation or a trend, but it seems to me that the Red Sox haven't done a very good job of using platoons.

 

Salty has hit very poorly against lefties this year, and yet he continues to get starts against lefties. Hopefully David Ross will do a good job of filling that hole.

 

There are three guys with a difference of .200 OPS in splits. Salty, Stephen Drew and Daniel Nava. These guys need to be platooned.

 

Let's be frank here Pal. Ross is a lousy hitter and always has been, save for a half-season with, was it the Braves? He was run out of LA because he couldn't hit and didn't hit well anywhere else that I recall. I still believe that for whatever reason, Lavarnway was never given a decent shot at the catcher's job. As for Drew it was clear almost from the get-go that he could not hit lefthanded pitching with anything resembling regularity. I even think he was hitting less than 200 against them. Might be a good idea if Farrell gets his h ead out of his pocket and tries Bogey at short when we face a southpaw and it wouldn't hurt to give Ryan a chance against them. Salty is much more potent against RH pitchers.