Should we resign Jacoby Ellsbury?

[marklmw]

Lester needs a new deal and will get a big payday.

Peavy's contract will be off the books and they can sign Lester and have a savings at the same time. Lester should be a priority.

Not to say that Peavy will not wish to stay on for less money in 2015

[marklmw]

Catcher is about as much a need as shortstop -- we're only going after a veteran if people don't trust any of our rookies (Butler, Lavarnway, Vazquez) to get the job done alongside David Ross.

 

First base is a legitimate need, but it's our only major need. And we're clearing several large contracts not counting the obvious move you hope to do in clearing Dempster. I just don't see the need to be penny-wise with Ellsbury when it might be pound foolish.

 

Dojji ... I think you are viewing everything in a short-term sort of way. Ownership has to be looking past 2014 when they make decisions. The Sox are in a great position, they are loaded with talent and they will be restocking in the draft as well.

they do not have to spend 170M just because they can.

[SoxSport]

The Boras twins, Ells and Drew, are undoubtedly gone. Boras can get blood out of a turnip, and he will get some team to overpay beyond what the Red Sox will pay--for two replaceable guys. Most likely, he will get them multi year deals which won't make sense for the Red Sox.

 

Besides, the Red Sox have won their championship--no team ever repeats--the cards have to fall in place just right, and that never happens two years in a row. The exception were the mercenary Yankee teams of the late 90s, when they were outspending everybody by an even larger margin than today. Plus they had some excellent homegrowns like Jeter, Posada,Rivera, etc., they don't have today.

 

I think the Red Sox have the luxury of not feeling desperate to sign free agents. They should, however, retain the chemistry that fell into their laps this year. That means they should know who the key players were: I would say Vic, Lackey, Lester, Koji, Nap, Gomes, Ortiz, Pedey--maybe Buchholz, Ross, Nava, Carp. They have the luxury of putting a Bradley in CF and Bogaerts at SS, Middlebrooks at 3B, and let them develop.

 

One thing Cherington needs to do is to define the core chemistry and keep it. His first mistake will be to change it, or upset it. Successful GMs make that mistake all the time. The Yankees never make that mistake.

Edited November 15, 2013 by SoxSport

[Bellhorn04]

Catcher is about as much a need as shortstop -- we're only going after a veteran if people don't trust any of our rookies (Butler, Lavarnway, Vazquez) to get the job done alongside David Ross.

 

First base is a legitimate need, but it's our only major need. And we're clearing several large contracts not counting the obvious move you hope to do in clearing Dempster. I just don't see the need to be penny-wise with Ellsbury when it might be pound foolish.

 

Not giving Ellsbury 120 million or more is not what I would call being penny-wise.

[mvp 78]

In terms of chemistry, Salty played a huge role last year. I think he should come back on a short term deal, but if he leaves it's not the end of the world. I just wonder how much Ross will be able to play next year.

[User Name]

Catcher is about as much a need as shortstop -- we're only going after a veteran if people don't trust any of our rookies (Butler, Lavarnway, Vazquez) to get the job done alongside David Ross.

 

First base is a legitimate need, but it's our only major need. And we're clearing several large contracts not counting the obvious move you hope to do in clearing Dempster. I just don't see the need to be penny-wise with Ellsbury when it might be pound foolish.

 

So this justifies overpaying for a player whose skillset has been historically proven to quickly erode, and said player is also fragile to boot? The Sox will also have to spend money locking up some of its young talent, give Lester his new deal, and deal with new contracts/departing players by the boatload after the end of next season. Your reasons to justify the idea of the Sox blowing a wad of cash on Ellsbury are indefensible. Please stop.

[mvp 78]

So this justifies overpaying for a player whose skillset has been historically proven to quickly erode, and said player is also fragile to boot? The Sox will also have to spend money locking up some of its young talent, give Lester his new deal, and deal with new contracts/departing players by the boatload after the end of next season. Your reasons to justify the idea of the Sox blowing a wad of cash on Ellsbury are indefensible. Please stop.

 

It's only because he hates JBJ, right?

[sk7326]

The Boras twins, Ells and Drew, are undoubtedly gone. Boras can get blood out of a turnip, and he will get some team to overpay beyond what the Red Sox will pay--for two replaceable guys. Most likely, he will get them multi year deals which won't make sense for the Red Sox.

 

Besides, the Red Sox have won their championship--no team ever repeats--the cards have to fall in place just right, and that never happens two years in a row. The exception were the mercenary Yankee teams of the late 90s, when they were outspending everybody by an even larger margin than today. Plus they had some excellent homegrowns like Jeter, Posada,Rivera, etc., they don't have today.

 

I think the Red Sox have the luxury of not feeling desperate to sign free agents. They should, however, retain the chemistry that fell into their laps this year. That means they should know who the key players were: I would say Vic, Lackey, Lester, Koji, Nap, Gomes, Pedey--maybe Buchholz, Ross, Nava, Carp. They have the luxury of putting a Bradley in CF and Bogaerts at SS, Middlebrooks at 3B, and let them develop.

 

One thing Cherington needs to do is to define the core chemistry and keep it. His first mistake will be to change it, or upset it. Successful GMs make that mistake all the time. The Yankees never make that mistake.

 

The Yankees had great players - they kept that. Chemistry forms as teams win - not the other way around. The 1996-2000 Yankees were largely home grown with a few key veterans, so that is a pretty poor example of mercenary. They outspent, but to keep their guys. And considering how much they charge their public, they damn well ought to have.

[marklmw]

The Yankees had great players - they kept that. Chemistry forms as teams win - not the other way around. The 1996-2000 Yankees were largely home grown with a few key veterans, so that is a pretty poor example of mercenary. They outspent, but to keep their guys. And considering how much they charge their public, they damn well ought to have.

 

Yankees Jeter = Red Sox Pedroia. Doesn't get any better than this.

[marklmw]

In terms of chemistry, Salty played a huge role last year. I think he should come back on a short term deal, but if he leaves it's not the end of the world. I just wonder how much Ross will be able to play next year.

I think that Ross will be up for whatever the team throws at him knowing it is his last dance.

[mvp 78]

I think that Ross will be up for whatever the team throws at him knowing it is his last dance.

 

Mentally he could be up for whatever, but it's hard to say what his body will think of 100+ starts.

[Bellhorn04]

I can't see them starting Ross more than 50 or 60.

[marklmw]

I can't see them starting Ross more than 50 or 60.

Sure ... I see Ross going 1 of 3 games.

[seabeachfred]

The Boras twins, Ells and Drew, are undoubtedly gone. Boras can get blood out of a turnip, and he will get some team to overpay beyond what the Red Sox will pay--for two replaceable guys. Most likely, he will get them multi year deals which won't make sense for the Red Sox.

 

Besides, the Red Sox have won their championship--no team ever repeats--the cards have to fall in place just right, and that never happens two years in a row. The exception were the mercenary Yankee teams of the late 90s, when they were outspending everybody by an even larger margin than today. Plus they had some excellent homegrowns like Jeter, Posada,Rivera, etc., they don't have today.

 

I think the Red Sox have the luxury of not feeling desperate to sign free agents. They should, however, retain the chemistry that fell into their laps this year. That means they should know who the key players were: I would say Vic, Lackey, Lester, Koji, Nap, Gomes, Pedey--maybe Buchholz, Ross, Nava, Carp. They have the luxury of putting a Bradley in CF and Bogaerts at SS, Middlebrooks at 3B, and let them develop.

 

One thing Cherington needs to do is to define the core chemistry and keep it. His first mistake will be to change it, or upset it. Successful GMs make that mistake all the time. The Yankees never make that mistake.

 

Core chemistry is right SoxSport and unfortunately, too often teams start moving away from that much to their chagrin later on. Cherington did a bang-up job in getting the right people last winter; he must not undo that by letting people like Mike and Jarrod get away and sign guys who are not a good fit for the Red Sox.

[SoxSport]

Core chemistry is right SoxSport and unfortunately, too often teams start moving away from that much to their chagrin later on. Cherington did a bang-up job in getting the right people last winter; he must not undo that by letting people like Mike and Jarrod get away and sign guys who are not a good fit for the Red Sox.

 

I wouldn't include Salty--great kid, improving hitter, but his catching leaves something to be desired. Ross was much better in the playoffs, and the contrast was striking. Salty got exposed, and I suspect they would like more defense in a #1 catcher.

[marklmw]

I wouldn't include Salty--great kid, improving hitter, but his catching leaves something to be desired. Ross was much better in the playoffs, and the contrast was striking. Salty got exposed, and I suspect they would like more defense in a #1 catcher.

 

Watching Molina catch in the WS was a treat. He probably is responsible for lowering the era of each game he catches by .5

[Dojji]

Yadi's an elite catcher. Not very many like him. And then he learned to hit too.

 

He's already the best of the Flying Molina Brothers as it is, one of the best if not THE best catcher in the majors right now, and he still has several years to go to add to his legacy.

 

Just kinda saying, holding salty or any other catcher up to that standard is kind of unfair to them. We're not really asking the catching position to play the kind of role in carrying the team the Cardinals ask of Molina.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Dojji

[Dojji]

The Yankees had great players - they kept that. Chemistry forms as teams win - not the other way around.

 

I've seen it work both ways, and so have you if you stop to think about it.

 

Chemistry doesn't so much help the team win, as it does help them avoid the mental ruts that lead to a team playing below their talent level for extended periods of time. That's just as valuable as boosting the actual talent level -- sometimes much more so.

[sk7326]

I've seen it work both ways, and so have you if you stop to think about it.

 

Chemistry doesn't so much help the team win, as it does help them avoid the mental ruts that lead to a team playing below their talent level for extended periods of time. That's just as valuable as boosting the actual talent level -- sometimes much more so.

 

Oh I don't know. There have not really been that many talented teams who failed - without some sort of more mundane explanation than they didn't get along. (they were old - everybody was hurt, which is our 2012 basically) I don't argue that chemistry matters, but a lot of that just comes from being successful together - and assembling a good team is your best percentage play there. I guess I lean towards, get the players, the chemistry will figure itself out. Evaluating the chemistry (especially since it changes so frequently) is a much dicier thing. Personally, I think some turnover is healthy - because you can't get back 2013's mojo. There is too much luck involved for that to happen.

[Bellhorn04]

Chemistry is an intangible and therefore impossible to measure. Certainly hardly anyone will dispute that generally speaking players who are focused, motivated and confident will perform at their highest level. But chemistry is an abstract concept.

[Dojji]

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because you can't measure character, you can't identify it.

[User Name]

No one here has even hinted at the idea that character can't be identified. They simply said it can't be measured, which is absolutely true. Seriously, why do you keep making these logical leaps of faith to reach such unexplainable conclusions?

[seabeachfred]

Oh I don't know. There have not really been that many talented teams who failed - without some sort of more mundane explanation than they didn't get along. (they were old - everybody was hurt, which is our 2012 basically) I don't argue that chemistry matters, but a lot of that just comes from being successful together - and assembling a good team is your best percentage play there. I guess I lean towards, get the players, the chemistry will figure itself out. Evaluating the chemistry (especially since it changes so frequently) is a much dicier thing. Personally, I think some turnover is healthy - because you can't get back 2013's mojo. There is too much luck involved for that to happen.

 

Normally I would totally agree with you on what you said SK, especially your take that chemistry will figure itself out. However, in the case of the 2013 Red Sox we may have a total exception to that rule. Almost to a man they all have said they knew they had something special the first day of Spring Training when they all seemed to come together and believed they could be a team of destiny. That beard growing caper was first suggested by Jonny Gomes who already was sporting one---and before you knew it they were all letting their whiskers grow. This time the players and chemistry were interchangeable and I don't know if I will see quite an ensemble of characters again fusing together as our team did this year. I still can't get over how they over-achieved and wound up as the class of baseball. Thank God we're all Red Sox fans on this board save a couple of our misguided pals.

[marklmw]

Normally I would totally agree with you on what you said SK, especially your take that chemistry will figure itself out. However, in the case of the 2013 Red Sox we may have a total exception to that rule. Almost to a man they all have said they knew they had something special the first day of Spring Training when they all seemed to come together and believed they could be a team of destiny. That beard growing caper was first suggested by Jonny Gomes who already was sporting one---and before you knew it they were all letting their whiskers grow. This time the players and chemistry were interchangeable and I don't know if I will see quite an ensemble of characters again fusing together as our team did this year. I still can't get over how they over-achieved and wound up as the class of baseball. Thank God we're all Red Sox fans on this board save a couple of our misguided pals.

And although not every player immediately grew facial hair by the end of the season and against the wishes of wifes and girlfriends they all had their version of a beard. Very cool.

[sk7326]

Normally I would totally agree with you on what you said SK, especially your take that chemistry will figure itself out. However, in the case of the 2013 Red Sox we may have a total exception to that rule. Almost to a man they all have said they knew they had something special the first day of Spring Training when they all seemed to come together and believed they could be a team of destiny. That beard growing caper was first suggested by Jonny Gomes who already was sporting one---and before you knew it they were all letting their whiskers grow. This time the players and chemistry were interchangeable and I don't know if I will see quite an ensemble of characters again fusing together as our team did this year. I still can't get over how they over-achieved and wound up as the class of baseball. Thank God we're all Red Sox fans on this board save a couple of our misguided pals.

 

Their best players stayed healthy - they let their whiskers grow, but they were able to do it on the field and not on the training table ... that was the biggest key, more than anything else that separated 2013 from 2011-12.

[User Name]

Their best players stayed healthy - they let their whiskers grow, but they were able to do it on the field and not on the training table ... that was the biggest key, more than anything else that separated 2013 from 2011-12.

 

I think you should give a little more credit to the fact that they weren't divided into factions or engaged in a cold war against their own manager. That's also a major difference between the '12 and '13 versions of the Red Sox.

[sk7326]

I think you should give a little more credit to the fact that they weren't divided into factions or engaged in a cold war against their own manager. That's also a major difference between the '12 and '13 versions of the Red Sox.

 

Those factions had a nonzero impact, but a lot of that is theatre for sports radio. Among position players, 20 extra games of Pedroia, nearly 40 extra games of Ortiz (going off the top of my head here), and over 60 extra games of Jacoby Ellsbury mattered - that is 120 games or so from their best players. 144 of the 162 games were started by Lester, Doubront, Buchholz, Peavy, Dempster or Lackey. Every season is a test with adversity to battle etc. But this team had remarkable fortune on the injury front compared to 2012 and the 2nd half of 2011. It is the one thing you can't control for - and you just hope works out, and it did. The team has had contender talent even last year, but just never had the opportunity to field that lineup often enough to make a great go of it.

 

Bobby was simultaneously dealt a crappy hand and played it poorly. It's not an either/or thing here.

[Bellhorn04]

The team has had contender talent even last year, but just never had the opportunity to field that lineup often enough to make a great go of it.

 

Bobby was simultaneously dealt a crappy hand and played it poorly. It's not an either/or thing here.

 

What's missing here, though, is the remarkable improvement in the starting pitching. I think some of the credit has to go to Farrell and Nieves for this.

[User Name]

Those factions had a nonzero impact, but a lot of that is theatre for sports radio. Among position players, 20 extra games of Pedroia, nearly 40 extra games of Ortiz (going off the top of my head here), and over 60 extra games of Jacoby Ellsbury mattered - that is 120 games or so from their best players. 144 of the 162 games were started by Lester, Doubront, Buchholz, Peavy, Dempster or Lackey. Every season is a test with adversity to battle etc. But this team had remarkable fortune on the injury front compared to 2012 and the 2nd half of 2011. It is the one thing you can't control for - and you just hope works out, and it did. The team has had contender talent even last year, but just never had the opportunity to field that lineup often enough to make a great go of it.

 

Bobby was simultaneously dealt a crappy hand and played it poorly. It's not an either/or thing here.

 

If you really think all of the drama and the poisonous atmosphere doesn't affect overall performance, that's up to you, but that's not how things work in any labor scenario. Sure, injuries played a big hand in the s***-show that was 2012, but so did the circus act.

[sk7326]

If you really think all of the drama and the poisonous atmosphere doesn't affect overall performance, that's up to you, but that's not how things work in any labor scenario. Sure, injuries played a big hand in the s***-show that was 2012, but so did the circus act.

 

It's not an either/or thing. There was a lot of drama - but as of June 29, the team was 1.5 games out of a playoff spot with the 2nd best run differential in the AL. With all the adversity they were muddling through - but the injuries (especially the Middlebrooks one) were too much to overcome (and then THIS is where the manager's idiocy came in) and no leadership to pull the car out of the ditch. (if it were possible with the Pedro Ciriaco show playing). After the trade, it was just a AAA team being thrown out there. There is a lot of character and toughness and makeup in our leaders, but (as in any labor scenario), you can't be an example when you are not able to show up for work. That is where the manager can pick up some of the slack - like Tito was able to in 2010, and like Bobby failed at thoroughly 2 years later.