Hanrahan's Injury

[Thunder]

I feel like threads like these exemplify that it's really hard to win as a GM because fans will come at you sideways regardless of what decisions you do or don't make.

 

You can't prevent injuries, they just happen. If a player a GM signs gets hurt and misses his potential, that's not necessarily the GM's fault.

[italstallianion]

Not to mention what players do in other places that they just didn't do here.

[mvp 78]

Absolutely. An experiment worth trying but definitely an experiment.

 

Hard to call a player with multiple years experience at the position you're trying him at, an experiment.

 

Other than Maybe Uehara, I don't see your point. Especially since besides Uehara you're trying to compare relief to everyday starters, which is dubious to begin with.

 

Whoosh

[User Name]

All of them are/were/will/would have been experiments. All.

 

I don't quite think you understand that Papelbon is good, but not one-of-a-kind. I get it, you like him, but come on.

[User Name]

No they were not. Both players were mid to low cost proven closers who were brought in because they had a track record of success in the closer's role in other divisions.

 

Exactly the kind of guy you want us to keep bringing in.

 

In the aftermath when they fail it's easy to dismiss these guys as not really up to the task, but that's not fair to them and it's not a truthful reflection of the real situation. The real situation is that it's danged hard to close in the AL East. letting someone who'd proven he could get it done on a consistent basis, walk to Philly, has NOT helped us, a team that prides itself on its ability to win consistently, to win consistently.

 

Hanrahan had one good year as a closer, Bailey had hit the DL twice every year since his rookie year. Your point is dead wrong.

[User Name]

Exactly. You put it in a better way than me

 

He's wrong, and so are you.

 

By your definition of "experiment", Papelbon to the Phillies was also an experiment. I want you to think about that for a second.

[Orange Juiced]

Hanrahan had one good year as a closer, Bailey had hit the DL twice every year since his rookie year. Your point is dead wrong.

 

Hanrahan had TWO good years as a closer, 2011 and 2012.

 

Rafael Soriano, who you cite as a "proven closer" ™, had two and a half good years as a closer. I'm hoping you're not suggesting that that extra half year makes your case for you.

 

And as I've already explained, Nathan came with serious risks. That he's worked out doesn't change the fact that, at the time, they were still major risks.

[User Name]

Hanrahan had TWO good years as a closer, 2011 and 2012.

 

Rafael Soriano, who you cite as a "proven closer" ™, had two and a half good years as a closer. I'm hoping you're not suggesting that that extra half year makes our case for you.

 

And as I've already explained, Nathan came with serious risks. That he's worked out doesn't change the fact that, at the time, they were still major risks.

 

Remember that Soriano also had several good years as an elite setup man BEFORE becoming a closer, and Hanrahan got rocked the second half of last year, walking everyone.

 

The problem here is that every relief pitcher is a major risk. Remember BJ Ryan? He had a very good pedigree, signed a huge FA contract, and bombed. Remember Brad Lidge? K-Rod? Francisco Cordero?

 

All of those guys had good track records and succumbed to injuries/ineffectiveness throughout the life of their contracts.

 

That is why giving that contract to Papelbon was riskier than any other move the Red Sox could have pulled off during that off-season. People with no foresight refuse to see it that way, but Papelbon is just another pitcher who could get injured at any time like any other.

 

For the record, so far this season Papelbon has exhibited the lowest fastball velocity (92.2) and K rate (5.54 K/9) of his career. Let's see how that contract looks next year.

 

Nathan, had he bombed, would have been gone after the season, just like Hanrahan and Bailey will be if they don't get their s*** together. Soriano would've probably signed a two-year deal had the Sox been aggressive, so he wouldn't have been a long-term commitment either.

[iortiz]

I don't quite think you understand that Papelbon is good, but not one-of-a-kind. I get it, you like him, but come on.

 

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

 

I'm waiting.

[iortiz]

He's wrong, and so are you.

 

By your definition of "experiment", Papelbon to the Phillies was also an experiment. I want you to think about that for a second.

 

No, you are the one who is wrong here.

 

Yup, Pap was an experiment for them, but is working out. They made a case and thought that he worth that contract. They haven't been wrong thus far.

 

On the other hand we keep making experiments while taxing us collateral damage.

[iortiz]

Napoli at 1st - experiment

Ross as backup - experiment

Vic in RF - experiment

Dempster at SP - experiment

Uehara - experiment

 

This game is fun!

 

Not sure what is your point, but yeah, this game is fun.

[User Name]

No, you are the one who is wrong here.

 

Yup, Pap was an experiment for them, but is working out. They made a case and thought that he worth that contract. They haven't been wrong thus far.

 

On the other hand we keep making experiments while taxing us collateral damage.

 

You just admitted to being wrong, then said i was the one who was wrong. My head may just explode.

[User Name]

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

 

I'm waiting.

 

A track record is not a definitive indicator of future performance in baseball. Age, injury risk and projections are all important as well. This line of thinking is the reason people keep lending Donald Trump money.

[mvp 78]

Not sure what is your point, but yeah, this game is fun.

 

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

[iortiz]

You can't prevent injuries, they just happen. If a player a GM signs gets hurt and misses his potential, that's not necessarily the GM's fault.

 

Problem is that our great FO love to put tons of money in wounded old fat horses and invent the cold water with their experiments instead of keeping the solid durable proved players.

 

This is Pap case.

[iortiz]

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

 

You are taking this out of context.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Well, then show me a closer with his track record, no named Mo.

 

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era

Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era

Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era

Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

 

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

 

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era

Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era

Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era

Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

 

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

 

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

[User Name]

To you, every single move is an experiment. By extension, the Sox signing s long term contract with a closer would be an experiment.

 

Thank you

[User Name]

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era

Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era

Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era

Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

 

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

 

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era

Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era

Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era

Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

 

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

 

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

 

Damn you. I was just doing this.

[iortiz]

You just admitted to being wrong, then said i was the one who was wrong. My head may just explode.

 

admitted being wrong? on what?

 

your head is going to explode? as I said earlier, take a pill

[SoxFanForsyth]

Damn you. I was just doing this.

 

sorry man. I couldn't leave it alone. And those were just names off the top of my head. I didn't even mention (ear muffs) Bobby Jenks, who had good success from 06-10, and we all know how that ended.

[User Name]

admitted being wrong? on what?

 

your head is going to explode? as I said earlier, take a pill

 

First off, what does "take a pill" even mean?

 

Second off, the main point of contention between us is your insistence that Papelbon is a sure thing. We've discussed this over and over and over. By admitting that Papelbon's contract is an "experiment" for the Phillies, you are admitting to the inherent risk and possible failure of the contract, therefore invalidating your earlier arguments.

[iortiz]

Heath Bell: 2007-2011 - 134 saves, 2.53 era

Jose Valverde: 07-11 - 191 saves, 2.91 era

Francisco Cordero 07-11 - 194 saves, 2.97 era

Joakim Soria 07-10 - 132 saves, 2.01 era

 

Papelbon 07-11 - 184 saves, 2.40 era

 

Heath Bell 2012: 19 saves, 5.09 era

Jose Valverde 2012: 35 saves, 3.78 era

Francisco Cordero 2012: 2 saves, 7.55 era

Joakim Soria 2011: 28 saves, 4.03 era

 

All of these pitchers had solid track records of success reaching 4-5 years back with very solid ERA's and saves. And they all completely blew up a year later.

 

Relief pitchers, especially closers, are a complete crapshoot.

 

This is whata Im talking about.

 

None of them has Pap's record. None. As I said, Pap is driving in other highway.

[iortiz]

First off, what does "take a pill" even mean?

 

Second off, the main point of contention between us is your insistence that Papelbon is a sure thing. We've discussed this over and over and over. By admitting that Papelbon's contract is an "experiment" for the Phillies, you are admitting to the inherent risk and possible failure of the contract, therefore invalidating your earlier arguments.

 

1. Means that it could help u if your head is about to explode.

 

2. Nothing is for sure in this life but given the facts he would have been the best bet.

[User Name]

sorry man. I couldn't leave it alone. And those were just names off the top of my head. I didn't even mention (ear muffs) Bobby Jenks, who had good success from 06-10, and we all know how that ended.

 

Brad Lidge 2004-2008: 2.92 ERA, 163 saves

 

Francisco Rodriguez 2004-2008: 2.23 ERA, 206 SV

 

Francisco Cordero 2003-2007: 3.03 ERA, 167 SV

[User Name]

1. Means that it could help u if your head is about to explode. :lol

 

It's a figure of speech i use meaning that a person is presenting two arguments that contradict each other. Your (or anyone's for that matter) posts on a baseball website have no impact on my physical well being.

 

2. Nothing is for sure in this life but given the facts he would have been the best bet.

 

This is a far cry from your earlier stance, and the correctness of the statement is still circumstancial.

[User Name]

This is whata Im talking about.

 

None of them has Pap's record. None. As I said, Pap is driving in other highway.

 

Not sure if serious......

[iortiz]

Not sure if serious......

 

What are 2012-2013 Pap's numbers?

[iortiz]

Pap still a beast.

[User Name]

What are 2012-2013 Pap's numbers?

 

What ForSyth was trying to say is that Papelbon could very easily still explode during the life of his contract. Francisco Cordero was good for a part of his contract, so was K-Rod, and Brad Lidge.

 

His 2013 numbers are pretty, but his peripherals are declining. Wait and see.