2013 Spring Training

[Dojji]

Also Dojji, isn't it kind of ironic you're talking about wanting to keep Beltre after you were his biggest hater on the board?

 

True. I was wrong. I'm man enough to admit that.

[User Name]

No, I said he has been a shaky LF. JBJ is an athletic outfielder and and those athletic qualities are simply not very valuable in LF. He does not have experience nor has he so far exhibited good judgement in LF and has twice even in the short stints he has had in LF made poor judgements on hit baseballs.

 

All of the comments in that piece are about JBJ's play in CF and I think he is/will be a terrific CF. Probably better than Ells cause Ells can run but can't throw. Speed is still the first order of business for a CF but an arm is next. Ells has the speed but no arm at all. Can't out-throw my 11 year old daughter.

 

As I have stated several times, LF is less about athletic ability and more about judgement and experience.

 

JBJ is not as yet a LFer and if he starts the year there as is, his lack of experience and judgement in LF will likely hurt him. Nava is just about the only experienced LF this team has got, maybe followed by Victorino and maybe Kalish once and or maybe if he gets back. Gomes is a mess.

 

jung, this is all speculation at best. Are you basing this argument on a couple of ST games? If you are, then it holds little water.

[Dojji]

Just because our LF is small doesn't mean athleticism is useless there. You're trying to make out like it's all one way or all the other.

 

Sure our LF is small which allows a relatively unathletic big bat to hide there, but that doesn't mean good D in left is useless either.

[a700hitter]

True. I was wrong. I'm man enough to admit that.

It's also ridiculous to be comparing Drew and Beltre under any circumstances. You should admit that too.

[User Name]

Just because our LF is small doesn't mean athleticism is useless there. You're trying to make out like it's all one way or all the other.

 

Sure our LF is small which allows a relatively unathletic big bat to hide there, but that doesn't mean good D in left is useless either.

 

I mean i have said myself the impact is diminished because of Fenway, but come on. In more spacious parks, having LBJ in LF instead of a lumbering ox like Gomes would be a blessing.

[a700hitter]

I mean i have said myself the impact is diminished because of Fenway, but come on. In more spacious parks, having LBJ in LF instead of a lumbering ox like Gomes would be a blessing.

Gomes will lumber in LF at Fenway too.

[jung]

and Manny was a terrific LFer. At least with Manny you knew EXACTLY what you were getting against ML pitching as a trade off for his fielding.

 

As Schill said today, nobody sees ML pitching in ST. You don't see real deal ML pitching until opening day. Schill also commented as many have here that a super ST at the plate is nothing new and nothing to get all excited about. As might guess, Schill thinks JBJ should start the season at AAA.

[User Name]

What does what Schilling think about ST hitting have to do with your assesment of his fielding?

[mvp 78]

Not sure what Pedroia has to do with being able to pick up pitchers in free agency.

 

That poll is asking for who is the superlative to "biggest mess in baseball". Even if the Red Sox comes in third, there definitely would be a big incentive for players to avoid signing with them in free agency. Especially pitchers who don't necessarily want to pitch in the AL East to begin with.

 

The poll could be biased. You listed an incorrect %. In baseball, players typically go where the money is, it wouldn't prevent a FA signing.

[User Name]

Edwin Jackson sure gave up his demands to play for a contender when the Cubs flashed all that green.

[mvp 78]

Edwin Jackson sure gave up his demands to play for a contender when the Cubs flashed all that green.

 

Clearly the Cubs aren't a mess. Didn't you see the ESPN players' poll?!? What a great organization. A real commitment to winning!

[jung]

What does what Schilling think about ST hitting have to do with your assesment of his fielding?

 

Nothing. I did not want to use a separate post on Schilling's comments. His comments are only relevant to the discussion of whether JBJ should start the season in Boston or Pawtucket. I am mostly down in the wood shop today so just posting in between working there.

 

That said proponents of the "we need JBJ on day 1" argument have used his potential in LF as part of the justification for having him up here and I just think that argument is specious. Nava is the best LF on this team at the moment. Maybe Victorino is second but his talents are better suited to RF or CF.

 

In truth any ballplayer is a combination of his various talents. Uttering JBJ's name in the same breadth with Manny, (not that you did UN) one of the acknowledged greatest hitters of all time who already was one of the greatest hitters of all time when he came to Boston is laughable. Manny by the way turned himself into a decent LFer in time. He was terrible at the start. But as a trade off to that, you had a staggeringly good, proven ML hitter right smack in the middle of your lineup and the rest was history.

 

We want to compare that to a kid who on the hitting side of the equation has never hit ML pitching and would likely bat 7th or 8th in an opening day lineup were he here. So the JBJ combination is to me, a shaky LFer combined with what....a big question mark relative to ML pitching vs Manny who came here as a terrible LFer but who was already on track and in the discussion for the best hitter of all time and who is without question one of the top 10 best ML hitters of all time.

 

As I said previously, I would start JBJ in Pawtucket but send a coach with him and work his ass off in LF. He gets a chance to continue to hone his skills at the plate and at least get comfortable in LF which he does not appear to be now and at least partially familiar with LF which he appears to not be at present. Then at some point after April 12, if they want to bring him up and put him in LF at least they will have given him an opportunity to get his bearings. Frankly on balance he is likely to see better pitching at AAA than he has seen in ST. Also, who knows, by then Ells could well be nursing his first injury of the season and the kid can go right to CF where he belongs.

 

Back to the wood shop.

[Palodios]

Edwin Jackson sure gave up his demands to play for a contender when the Cubs flashed all that green.

Clearly the Cubs aren't a mess. Didn't you see the ESPN players' poll?!? What a great organization. A real commitment to winning!

 

Generally, long term contracts are more dependent on money than short term contracts. We see it all the time-- the big fish go for the big money. However, players on short term contracts are looking for where they are going to have a good year to rebuild value and try for an expensive contract after. In recent years, the Red Sox usually see good RH hitters come in at bargain prices, namely Beltre and Ross. Most of the pitchers the Red Sox were looking at were 1-2 year guys, which is why this is relative.

 

The team sucked last year, there has been tremendous turnover in the coaching staff, the media is incredibly hostile and any mistake you make will be national news. Not to mention the competitive disadvantage of playing against the Yankees, and the tough pitcher's stadiums. Pitchers don't want to come here for a variety of reasons, and losing is definitely on the list.

[mvp 78]

Please provide an example for a short term guy taking a lesser paycheck to play somewhere to increase his value and gave up a substantially larger payday elsewhere.

[mvp 78]

If you think I was comparing JBJ to Manny, I think you've been sniffing too much turpentine in the woodshop...

 

You just keep saying that a LF at Fenway needs experience. Manny had none before coming here. Why not leave him in RF? Because RF is much tougher at Fenway and it's easier to hide a bad fielder there.

 

Manny was not a good LF, though you posit otherwise. JBJ would be fine.

[User Name]

I'll argue that Manny was decent at Fenway, but not on the road.

[Dojji]

Please provide an example for a short term guy taking a lesser paycheck to play somewhere to increase his value and gave up a substantially larger payday elsewhere.

 

Interesting question. Do you think Adrian Beltre could have technically done better over multiple years than he did in one year in Boston the year he signed here? Maybe a 3/21 deal with someone based on his then-current numbers and impressive D, which would have turned into highway robbery once he was out of Seattle?

[Palodios]

Please provide an example for a short term guy taking a lesser paycheck to play somewhere to increase his value and gave up a substantially larger payday elsewhere.

 

This is a trap. There is never solid evidence of what offers are on the table, so if I give you examples, you'll call it speculation. There was a report that Dan Haren turned down a better offer from Boston to go to DC. Ross and Beltre reportedly gave up better contracts to be in Boston, so did Victorino. Cliff Lee reportedly gave up 20-30 million to return to the Phillies. Cook and Padilla both said something about turning down better contracts, but who knows the truth of it.

[User Name]

Cliff Lee's the exception that strengthens the rule.

[Dojji]

There is no rule. A player will sign a 1 year deal if it looks to be in their best interest, they'll sign a multiyear deal on the same terms.

 

A short term deal for a player in his early 30's is a gamble that the player sometimes wins, if it sets them up to make the big money until near retirement age. Beltre's deal is an archetype of this. It sometimes backfires, but if a player is confident he can put up a great year it frequently doesn't. The gamble works if the 1 year deal is fairly remunerative, and fetches the player an extension worth more at the end years than the contract he would have signed this offseason would make him over the same years. Beltre's situation is a classic example of this. I suspect Shaun Marcum is thinking along similar lines this year.

 

Heck, CC Sabathia's opt out years served a similar role, wrenching an renegotiated out of NYY halfway into the extension he signed.

[User Name]

So you're saying that players don't usually go to the place where the most money is offered?

 

If you are, i have a bridge i need to sell.....

 

On the other hand, your response has very little to do with my point, so i suggest you re-read the posts that lead to this one.

[SoxSport]

The latest tweet is Carp, Sweeney, Bradley are taking IF/OF practice. It's down to keeping 2 of the 3.

No decision yet!

 

Probably the guy who drops the first OF fly is odd man out. Little League all over again. That's the Red Sox.

[User Name]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

[a700hitter]

The latest tweet is Carp, Sweeney, Bradley are taking IF/OF practice. It's down to keeping 2 of the 3.

No decision yet!

 

Probably the guy who drops the first OF fly is odd man out. Little League all over again. That's the Red Sox.

A well run organization, but what do we know.

[kapsis21]

The latest tweet is Carp, Sweeney, Bradley are taking IF/OF practice. It's down to keeping 2 of the 3.

No decision yet!

 

Probably the guy who drops the first OF fly is odd man out. Little League all over again. That's the Red Sox.

 

:lol: i hope you are kidding

[SoxSport]

:lol: i hope you are kidding

 

nope.

[Bellhorn04]

If you think I was comparing JBJ to Manny, I think you've been sniffing too much turpentine in the woodshop...

 

You just keep saying that a LF at Fenway needs experience. Manny had none before coming here. Why not leave him in RF? Because RF is much tougher at Fenway and it's easier to hide a bad fielder there.

 

Manny was not a good LF, though you posit otherwise. JBJ would be fine.

 

Don't you think it takes a little time to adapt to playing balls off the Monster? Maybe it would be more accurate to say that experience helps.

[SoxSport]

Bard to AA Portland; Holt, Gomez to AAA, Drew 7 day concussion DL. Ortiz running in the OF. He can't be ready opening day, so he'll be DLed.

They have until midnite on Sweeney, but why wait. Maybe more Yankee fodder.

 

Their immediate concern should be that opening series in NY. The Yankees are vulnerable right now, and they should be going in aiming to sweep with their best lineup.

 

Farrell sounds like he would like Bradley, but he isn't the final word.

[Elktonnick]

Bard to AA Portland; Holt, Gomez to AAA, Drew 7 day concussion DL. Ortiz running in the OF. He can't be ready opening day, so he'll be DLed.

They have until midnite on Sweeney, but why wait. Maybe more Yankee fodder.

 

Their immediate concern should be that opening series in NY. The Yankees are vulnerable right now, and they should be going in aiming to sweep with their best lineup.

 

Farrell sounds like he would like Bradley, but he isn't the final word.

 

 

My guess is this is Bard's last best chance. I think he has only one option left. If he can't make it back and stick with the big club he'll be gone. What a shame!

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bard to AA Portland; Holt, Gomez to AAA, Drew 7 day concussion DL. Ortiz running in the OF. He can't be ready opening day, so he'll be DLed.

They have until midnite on Sweeney, but why wait. Maybe more Yankee fodder.

 

Their immediate concern should be that opening series in NY. The Yankees are vulnerable right now, and they should be going in aiming to sweep with their best lineup.

 

Farrell sounds like he would like Bradley, but he isn't the final word.

 

They'll almost certainly take Bradley north. Along with, I suspect, Carp.

 

Bummed that Bard wasn't good enough to break camp, but hopefully he'll be back up in mid season.

 

Both Morales and Breslow both set to throw off a mound on Saturday and Monday, respectively. Big step. Mortenson obviously the first to get demoted. Wonder if they'll carry 3 lefties when both are ready? Not a bad option, especially when Breslow has success against RHH (.683 OPS against vs RHH last year, .654 for his career).