2013 Spring Training

[Bellhorn04]

Ortiz does make some comments that make him come off as whiny. But he also says a lot of good stuff that doesn't get as much attention...wonder why.

[User Name]

Because people are innately douchey and tend to focus on the negative so they can insult and put down others?

[VA Sox Fan]

Ortiz does make some comments that make him come off as whiny. But he also says a lot of good stuff that doesn't get as much attention...wonder why.

 

Because people are innately douchey and tend to focus on the negative so they can insult and put down others?

 

Exactly. The Boston media like a lot of posters out here tend to focus on the negative. Papi's done a lot more good for this team than bad. Remember 2004 anyone and all of his walk off wins through out the years?

[jung]

I guess tonight's game with the Orioles is also televised. Wonder if this game sees Lester and DLR pitching again. If last night is any indication, tonight's pitchers might be on a lengthier pitch out.

[Station 13]

Doubront is pitching tonight.

[BSN07]

Doobie looks like he is working on the secondary stuff tonight. His change up is looking good.

[SoxSport]

I understand via tweets that Ortiz' medical diagnosis is unchanged over last fall: There is no risk of further injury if he plays, it's still sore, but hasn't gotten worse. The MRI is probably to assure that it hasn't gotten worse. I still have my doubts as to whether it's a real achilles injury or in the arch (plantar).

I don't think you can play on a damaged achilles without risk of tearing it. Strained arches take forever to heal, but are manageable with an orthotic.

[seabeachfred]

Well SBF, I kinda' think it would be unrealistic to have expected Ortiz to go for surgery at the end of the 2012 season. He did not have a contract at that point. At his age given the average recovery time, it would be very easy to envision Ortiz unable to sign a next contract on the other side of recovery from surgery. Certainly, two years would have been completely out of the question at that point and he very likely would have been looking at light money even for a one year deal.

 

Now the shoe is on the other foot. While I think it is much easier for Ortiz to accept the idea of surgery at this point if that is what is presented to him, we won't be too happy about seeing Ortiz go off to surgery with his two year deal in hand.

 

While Hamilton would have been a huge gamble and more money, could that have been worse than what the Sox are now facing with Ortiz? While none of us can really know how the Achilles feels to Ortiz, to me he looks like he is moving around about the way he was from the point when he apparently came back too early late last year. That is not much improvement for 6-7 months of "healing". While the healing process is often not serial, it seems like it would take something of a miracle for him to be ready by opening day considering what little progress he has made to date. Comments he made after his last light jog were really discouraging. If anything it looks like as soon as he puts the tiniest bit of pressure or strain on the Achilles he ends up with even more discomfort. That sounds like he is making no progress at all and is in fact going backwards.

 

Would the Sox have taken some hits in the press if they resisted the temptation to sign Ortiz when they did? Maybe. To believe that you have to believe that some other AL team would have signed him for money he would have taken. I don't believe that possible with the open Achilles issue.

 

As it is now, at least for the moment it looks like the Sox really got snookered. If it really does turn out that Ortiz goes to surgery before swinging a bat in anger again, the Sox are going to look incredibly stupid.

 

I've always believed the Red Sox should have offered Papi only a one year contract, especially when his achilles tendon was seemingly in a very weakened condition. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the Red Sox were determined to have Ortiz retire as a Red Soxer and might have feared some o ther team would swoop down and sign him to a longer contract. I have no qualms about his retiring as a Red Sox player, but due diligence seemed to be missing and it could go down as another stupid move by the Red Sox front office if David can't play this season. From what I've been reading he may actually be regressing. Is that possible?

 

Hindsight is 20/20 but this might have been handled better with a real close inspection of the injury he suffered. Or did it look like he would be fine with rest? We know Achilles injuries are very slow to heal due to the lack of blood that enters into that area. One of these days Jung this Red Sox nightmare of the past few years will end......we hope.

[User Name]

What more due diligence? The only thing they could have concluded was whether or not there was a tear in the tendon. There wasn't one then, and there isn't one now. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot, since achilles injuries are extremely unpredictable.

 

You're just looking for ways to whine about the FO. Par for the course.

[User Name]

I understand via tweets that Ortiz' medical diagnosis is unchanged over last fall: There is no risk of further injury if he plays, it's still sore, but hasn't gotten worse. The MRI is probably to assure that it hasn't gotten worse. I still have my doubts as to whether it's a real achilles injury or in the arch (plantar).

I don't think you can play on a damaged achilles without risk of tearing it. Strained arches take forever to heal, but are manageable with an orthotic.

 

You are not a doctor, you don't know what you're talking about.

[seabeachfred]

Ortiz is doing his utmost to get back on the field. It's one of those frustrating injuries that not even the best doctors in the world can predict the recovery time for.

 

That's a very good point Bellhorn; Ortiz is doing his damndest to g et back in action. We have to keep in mind that Achilles injuries are very slow healing to begin with and often times there is stagnation and maybe even a little regresion before light is seen at the end of the tunnel. I just hope that light is not a freight train bearing down on us because today there were a number of articles that were strongly hinting that Papi might open the season on the DL. I just wish the Red Sox had just given him a one year contract because with that injury I don't think any other AL team would have ponied up more money than we were offering him and perhaps not a two year deal either. Of course, that we will never know for sure.

[seabeachfred]

What more due diligence? The only thing they could have concluded was whether or not there was a tear in the tendon. There wasn't one then, and there isn't one now. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot, since achilles injuries are extremely unpredictable.

 

You're just looking for ways to whine about the FO. Par for the course.

 

What more due diligence??? You're asking that with what the situation is right now? How about a one year contract and a team option? Think he could have gotten a better offer from another team with his injury of his----or more money? As for whining, I see you're back carrying the water and wood for the front office again. To you they seldom do any wrong. I guess it must be all the success we've had the past five years.

[Dojji]

oh so what you're saying is that the franchise should have squeezed Ortiz harder and risked not having him at all in order to get a slightly better deal.

[BSN07]

oh so what you're saying is that the franchise should have squeezed Ortiz harder and risked not having him at all in order to get a slightly better deal.

 

Of course! That and they should have premonitions of this happening and structured the contract accordingly. I mean it's not like anyone else would have signed him, oh wait..

 

The usual suspects were going to look for something to bitch about. This just gave them about the easiest target to show the FO for the boobs they really are. The Pitching staff, Drew, Napoli, Vic haven't given them much negative to pick over. As soon as one of those starts to falter, Ortiz's situation will be left alone.

[User Name]

oh so what you're saying is that the franchise should have squeezed Ortiz harder and risked not having him at all in order to get a slightly better deal.

 

Fred doesn't like logic.

[a700hitter]

oh so what you're saying is that the franchise should have squeezed Ortiz harder and risked not having him at all in order to get a slightly better deal.

They should have offered him arbitration to lock him in, because no team was going to offer him multiple years until he could run. No one offered him multiple years when he was healthy. This could have been done while continuing to negotiate the 2 year deal. The due diligence would have entailed monitoring his physical condition. They just shouldn't have offered 2 years until he could run. It's pretty much common sense.

[User Name]

No it isn't. Ortiz wanted a two-year deal so they gave it to him so they could secure his services. Not only does this avoid him whining about the contract, it also avoids the possibility of him getting pissed and bolting. Someone else would surely have given him a two-year deal. Had that happened, the same people who are claiming giving him a one-year deal was "common sense" would be bitching about how the FO should have given him the two-year deal and be done with it, and complain about how cheap they are.

 

That's the main problem of arguing with some of the posters on this site: Lack of a consistent thought process. People flip and flop their opinion to fit their need to whine.

[a700hitter]

Of course! That and they should have premonitions of this happening and structured the contract accordingly. I mean it's not like anyone else would have signed him, oh wait..

 

The usual suspects were going to look for something to bitch about. This just gave them about the easiest target to show the FO for the boobs they really are. The Pitching staff, Drew, Napoli, Vic haven't given them much negative to pick over. As soon as one of those starts to falter, Ortiz's situation will be left alone.

Promonitions? He was injured when the season started. They were fully aware of his physical condition. They should have monitored his condition. No one was going to sign a guy with one leg out from under us. When and if he healed, we give him two years.

 

You find no fault with the organization when it has its worst season since 1965. You make excuse after excuse without finding fault. That's a bit unrealistic, and a recipe for continuing to suck unless issues are identified and rectified.

[BSN07]

Fair warning User, 700 is looking for anyone to go back and forth with these days. He even skipped his " you need x amount of posts before I respond to you" gig so he could get lead around by a Troll for a couple days. Better to just skip him, at least that may help avoid a meltdown on your 1st weekend back.

[jung]

No other team in baseball was going to offer David Ortiz two years under the conditions he and the Sox were under at the time of the signing. That is utter and complete ********. In the first place no other team gets the bump from being able to harken back to some championship from some bygone era. Only the Sox get that bump. Incidentally the Sox are almost the only team in baseball that values such utter nonsense.

[BSN07]

No other team in baseball was going to offer David Ortiz two years under the conditions he and the Sox were under at the time of the signing. That is utter and complete ********. In the first place no other team gets the bump from being able to harken back to some championship from some bygone era. Only the Sox get that bump. Incidentally the Sox are almost the only team in baseball that values such utter nonsense.

 

While no offers were made officially, the general consensus from everything I was reading at the time had Ortiz having no problem finding a 2 year deal on the open market, with some predicting a 3 year deal if it got down to 2 teams that really wanted him.

[jung]

That was not the general consensus. The general consensus was that Ortiz had the misfortune that befalls other players on occasion. He got injured at the worst possible time. The general consensus was that the Sox were the only team that would even consider it because they would at least get the bump from having retained a player from the "glory years", the championship years. That was considered the Ortiz' ace in the hole. While he had the misfortune to get injured he had the good fortune to be able to attach himself to the glory years of almost the only team in baseball that cares about such nonsense....your and my Boston Red Sox. I completely agreed with that opinion at the time and considered the Sox signing him a lead pipe cinch and two years almost a certainty.

 

Me, I would not have done it regardless of the ramifications. But that is me.

 

You take half the teams in baseball off the radar screen right from the start since the DH only exists in the AL.

[Bellhorn04]

I think a big part of the reason they gave Ortiz the 2 years was that they really did want a much more harmonious clubhouse this year. They showed that in the 'character' signings as well. I'm not saying it's right or that it will work. But I think there was a reasoning behind it.

[BSN07]

 

Me, I would not have done it regardless of the ramifications. But that is me.

 

Who would you have replaced him with?

[User Name]

No other team in baseball was going to offer David Ortiz two years under the conditions he and the Sox were under at the time of the signing. That is utter and complete ********. In the first place no other team gets the bump from being able to harken back to some championship from some bygone era. Only the Sox get that bump. Incidentally the Sox are almost the only team in baseball that values such utter nonsense.

 

You couldn't be more wrong. Look at the money Berkman got coming off a lost year from Texas. In fact, Texas is the team Ortiz would have signed with if not Boston imo.

[BSN07]

I think a big part of the reason they gave Ortiz the 2 years was that they really did want a much more harmonious clubhouse this year. They showed that in the 'character' signings as well. I'm not saying it's right or that it will work. But I think there was a reasoning behind it.

 

Yes I'm sure that was part of it. It also doesn't look good if you dump the face of the franchise to save a couple million dollars while in the middle of trying to rebuild the teams image. The Yankees are saints when they "take care of their own guys". Red Sox do it for one guy in like a decade and some people turn rabidness lol

 

Another part is he was still producing at a good level. That and there was no clear replacement for that production in Ortiz's price range.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes I'm sure that was part of it. It also doesn't look good if you dump the face of the franchise to save a couple million dollars while in the middle of trying to rebuild the teams image. The Yankees are saints when they "take care of their own guys".

 

Yes, the last deal with Jeter was a good example.

[BSN07]

Yes, the last deal with Jeter was a good example.

 

And when it's one it's not that big of a deal If they did it for every nostalgic case, then it becomes in issue.

 

Like I said before, this is one of the only things some have to gripe about. Which with all the teams ? pre spring is probably shocking to them. So they are clutching to the Ortiz issue are hard as possible. Ortiz will be an after thought as soon as someone else steps up and gives them something to latch on to.

[Palodios]

What more due diligence??? You're asking that with what the situation is right now? How about a one year contract and a team option? Think he could have gotten a better offer from another team with his injury of his----or more money? As for whining, I see you're back carrying the water and wood for the front office again. To you they seldom do any wrong. I guess it must be all the success we've had the past five years.

 

As I mentioned a few posts back... if the Red Sox offered him a one year contract, then what?

 

He's a top 5 hitter in baseball. Up there with Cabrera, Votto, Fielder. They wouldn't be able to replace his offense production or PR value in 2014, no matter how the prospects develop. So, what's the harm in paying him 11 million for 2014 now, rather than 15 million in 2014? His ankle issue is a nagging thing, not a career ender.

[jung]

Who....well lets start with there is no direct replacement for Ortiz out there...maybe Thome comes close.

 

There are some overarching considerations here. There is no way the Sox would have considered them but I would have. In my view the Sox while enduring what is really based on expectation a bad few years and a completely horrible two years had been given an almost once in a lifetime opportunity via the LA deal. The culture of the Red Sox is not the culture of a winner. Sorry, nobody wishes it different more than I but it is not. The Pats are the only team in this town that has maintained the culture of a winner for any amount of time worth mentioning. Ortiz was the last of the players that cared more about piling more millions atop his already hefty bank account while the economy was going in the tank, people were losing jobs and their very homes and the team had turned into a bunch of whiny, loser malcontents. They had reached a depth that they were not even able to achieve during what some of us true masochists probably consider the real glory years (those before 2004). I would have dumped Ortiz on his royal ass regardless of the consequences. That would finally have cleaned house of the whiny malcontents. Ortiz does deserve honorable mention because with the exception of the one major slump he went through, it did not seem to affect his play. However he was dizzy enough to call that clubhouse of losers his own which was another effort at a money grab by Ortiz. That combined with his whining stuck him in the whiny, greedy malcontent category. In truth, Ortiz is not a leader anyway. Clearly the mess that had become the Sox clubhouse had an impact on him, not the other way around. This is not the Ortiz that we pulled off the scrap heap. Ortiz became the visible face of the greedy ballplayer....rich beyond his wildest dreams off of contracts from a team that had picked him off the scrap heap. But it was not enough because the Sox had f***ed up with so many other contracts that they owned him his f***ed up contract too. This ******** has simply gone on too long in Boston, so long that a number of us simply accept it as the norm and I think even find something attractive in it as if it has some sort of charm that is so classically Red Sox. It just has got to finally stop. It is no longer cute and I did not relish the nostalgic return to something even worse than the Yawkey clubhouse one bit. If it does not stop we will never in this town have consistent, year in year out contending Sox teams.

 

Plus it is high time for the Sox to bite the bullet. They should have made this Pedey's team without question. Pedey is the one guy that still cared about winning when everything was falling apart around him......the one guy that was not so obviously grabbing for everything he could get while the gettin' was good......just about as underpaid as Ortiz without all the drama. I would have even sweetened Pedey's deal at the point of having some extra cash to throw around not only to send a message to the rest of the team but to send a message to the fan base that they finally get it over there on Yawkey way and to quiet the idiots that have decided that Ortiz is some sort of god but Pedey is an *******. These people are gluttons for punishment.

 

So to me the Achilles was all the rational I needed. It would have made a tough decision easy. What better year to finally clean house completely and really move to change the culture of the Red Sox than this, a year that even LL is calling a bridge year. This is a year when they were already bringing in guys that simply play the game and are for the most part grateful for the incredible good fortune they and Ortiz for that matter have had. I simply no longer trust that even the two years would have kept David in line. He would have found something to complain about because that is what he has become.

 

If you want to talk about the Achilles itself, you just cannot ignore that sort of injury on a 37 year old player carting 250 lbs of beef around atop it. Remember, people were alarmed that it had made 0 progress even at the point of the signing. Not only was it still an issue but it had still to that point made 0 progress. Here we are months later and it has still made .........0 progress.

 

As for who to get as a replacement, I might have tried Thome. I might have gone in a completely different direction....away from the dedicated DH.....it would have been a good year to bite the bullet on that decision as well.

 

There is no direct replacement for Ortiz but that was in part the problem with going with him. We are sitting here considering whether or not we are going to be without him anyway and to not be willing to consider that very real possibility is sticking your head in the sand. At some point the risk is substantially higher that even if he does get comfortable enough to play, he is at considerable risk for just ripping the thing wide open anyway. Again, he is trying to stop and start 250 lbs when he is running on a weakened Achilles. Does anybody honestly think he is going to go from making no progress for months to having a healthy Achilles? He is currently by his own admission unable to play and even when back may well just rip the thing which ends his career! Does that sound like the Sox or what!!!