Shane Victornio? If So Cherington Must Go!

[User Name]

It makes no sense to spend a ton of money trying to contend then turn around and trade Lester.

[MANNYHOF24]

Lester + Ellsbury for Wil Myers?

 

Trade arguably our best pitcher and best hitter/fielder for a prospect? NO WAY!

[SoxFanForsyth]

not getting a lot of positive feedback on that idea.

 

gonna go ahead and trash the idea.

[Plumpamania]

Lester for Myers please.

[lospunchados]

This is not my favorite signing but here are some facts.

 

The Cameron comparison is way out of wack being ( as stated by others ) the five year age difference.

 

Victorino has improved his walk per plate appearance and is at or above the league average.

 

His strikeoutout per plate appearance has dropped every year and is well below league average.

 

he has averaged 30 stolen bases per year the last three years.

 

still an above average defender.

 

AT this point in his career ( and Carl Crawfords) at worst he is a slightly less dynamic CC with better plate discipline, less strikeouts, similar power and probably similar SB numbers. And he costs about 8 million per year less and he probably won't bitch if he is hitting 6th or seventh.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Good point by Pete Abe - Torii Hunter, who is 5 years older than Shane Victorino, got 2 years at $13mm per year.

 

The market is what it is.

[BSN07]

Right now

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Papi

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Gomes/Kalish

Ross/Lavs

Iggy

 

Looks a lot different then 2 days ago. Wonder what it looks like two days from now haha

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Not the best move in the world, but it's not as bad as some are making it out to be. I like the move, lets see what they do with it.

[Palodios]

Right now

 

Ellsbury

Victorino

Pedroia

Papi

Napoli

Middlebrooks

Gomes/Kalish

Ross/Lavs

Iggy

 

Looks a lot different then 2 days ago. Wonder what it looks like two days from now haha

 

The other thing to point out is the defense. Defense will decline a bit at 1st and stay about the same at LF , but it improves significantly at SS, 3B, RF, and C.

[Orange Juiced]

Just so I feel better....

 

Crawford (2011) - 506 ab, 11 hr, 56 rbi, 18 sb, .255/.289/.405/.694, 85 ops+, 0.0 fWAR, $20m in 2013

 

Victorino (2012) - 595 ab, 11 hr, 55 rbi, 39 sb, .255/.321/.383/.704, 91 ops+, 2.4 fWAR, $13m in 2013

[BSN07]

Just so I feel better....

 

Crawford (2011) - 506 ab, 11 hr, 56 rbi, 18 sb, .255/.289/.405/.694, 85 ops+, 0.0 fWAR, $20m in 2013

 

Victorino (2012) - 595 ab, 11 hr, 55 rbi, 39 sb, .255/.321/.383/.704, 91 ops+, 2.4 fWAR, $13m in 2013

 

Add in also that he is a high energy good clubhouse guy. The Sox are putting together a good group of dudes thats fun to cheers for instead of all the high priced divas. I'm liking the path so far.

[dupree]

The Shane Victornio deal has finally had time to sink in...

 

Reports have said that Cody Ross is still not being ruled out in Boston.

Im really not sure about the door being open

I figured it was locked shut with the Victorino signing

 

Jon Heyman said that Hamilton was still in play

I hope that he is right

 

This is getting interesting

[Lucienbel]

The Shane Victornio deal has finally had time to sink in...

 

Reports have said that Cody Ross is still not being ruled out in Boston.

Im really not sure about the door being open

I figured it was locked shut with the Victorino signing

 

Jon Heyman said that Hamilton was still in play

I hope that he is right

 

This is getting interesting

 

Ross is still in play because of a possible Ellsbury trade...makes sense.

[SoxSport]

My initial reaction to this signing was like everybody else on Twitter--horrible. Then I saw Tom Verducci on MLB TV, who explained why this was a good deal for the Sox. Victorino is a multi-skilled player. Stole 39 bases last year, even in an off-year where he had a bad 2nd half in LA. Can play any outfield position. Excellent outfielder. Switch hitter. Not viewed as in decline at 32.

 

What this does is make Ellsbury highly tradeable, certainly by mid-season next year. Maybe now, with the right deal for a pitcher? You figure Henry doesn't want to deal with Boras.

 

It also may mean they are not done signing outfielders, though they still have Kalish as the 5th outfielder right now.

[BornToRun]

Looking at his numbers, he's not as bad as I thought. I'm still not sure how I feel about this but he's fast, has some pop, is a great base stealer, and can play defense. If he can go back to what he was prior to 2012 and put up a .340-50 OBP with about 15 bombs with speed and D, I'll be happy. Here's hoping.

 

We're really much more active in the FA market than I thought though. I just hope BC has the good sense to stay away from Grienke and Hamilton. Great though they be, thats gonna be a lot of money for two guys who have some significant issues.

[SoxSport]

Huge disparity in runs scored from stolen bases for Red Sox vs opponents the last few years. Had a post or two on the subject last year. Hopefully, Farrell will change that. They now have 3 speedsters in the lineup--Ells, Vic and Iggy--plus Pedey who always steals 20-25 bases. Maybe that signals more smallball. More ways to score runs.

[BornToRun]

Huge disparity in runs scored from stolen bases for Red Sox vs opponents the last few years. Had a post or two on the subject last year. Hopefully, Farrell will change that. They now have 3 speedsters in the lineup--Ells, Vic and Iggy--plus Pedey who always steals 20-25 bases. Maybe that signals more smallball. More ways to score runs.

 

They're smart runners too. The SB% by all three of ells, Victorino, and Pedey is very high. They don't get caught very often.

[NZSox]

Welcome Shane.

 

One of us now, regardless of whether you think we overpaid. Has his strengths, has his weaknesses. Hopefully he can be a better clubhouse presence than previous guys...

[Lord Snow]

3-$37.5MM is not a bad deal at all. Our OF looks really solid for 2013, hopefully SP help is on the horizon.

 

What are you on? That's a horrible deal. It's one of the worst free agent signings I've ever witnessed.

 

And you want to sell low Ellsbury, a guy who could come out and win and with the AL MVP next year, for a mediocre starting pitcher

[Lord Snow]

If the Red Sox did sign Shane Victornio then No Alcohol of any kind should ever be allowed at the winter meetings again!!!

 

All we can hope for now is that he fails the physical.

"So your telling me thiers a chance!!!" - Dumb and Dumber

 

+1.

 

Yes, praying for that failed physical.

[Palodios]

What are you on? That's a horrible deal. It's one of the worst free agent signings I've ever witnessed.

 

Clearly you know absolutely nothing about Victorino, and have been ignoring the discussion about what makes him a better than advertised player.

[Lord Snow]

He was the next logical choice,

 

Hamilton- too expensive too risky

Swisher- probably more expensive, sends Yankees a sandwich 1st rounder

Victorino- Better then Ross, also had multiple offers, some longer then what Sox gave him, solution? Give him more AAV. That's what you can do with payroll flexibility.

 

Victorino = definite bench player by 2014, if not mid-2013. 3-years $39M.

Gomes = definite bench player by April 2013. 2-years $10M.

David Ross = definite bench player by April 2013. 2-years $6.2M.

 

That's $55.2M flushed down the toilet. For guys who are only going to provide negative production. But we don't have the fund to sign Hamilton, Haren, Sanchez, or Swisher?

 

Cherington needs to be fired, immediately.

 

That second round pick we are saving from not signing Swisher better become the next Ted Williams.

[example1]

Who says they don't have the funds to sign Hamilton, Haren, Sanchez or Swisher? They might not want to sign them with the funds they have, but they have the funds.

 

What Victorino does is give another versatile veteran presence who has played on winning teams for a relatively team friendly length contract. The Sox will be introducing enough home grown talent the next few years that the salary will be under control.

 

Victorino might end up being very expensive bench depth, but when LL talks about having "deep depth" perhaps he's not talking about having AAAA players available at AAA. Perhaps he means having guys who would otherwise be starters/regular players elsewhere in a regular rotation at the MLB level.

 

I don't love the signing but I don't hate it either. The Sox are slowly building a clubhouse full of guys who, salaries aside, any team would love to have. These are character guys who aren't just character guys. They have skills too.

 

Remember, the salary is likely a tool to prevent the deal from having been 4 or 5 years, which is likely what Victorino and Napoli wanted. The Sox will be able to clear this money off the books soon, or could absorb the salary if they wanted to trade some of these guys in the future.

 

Finally, Napoli and Victorino and Ross all have decent health records. Having guys who are likely to stay in the lineup is a novel thing for the Sox.

[Lord Snow]

Who says they don't have the funds to sign Hamilton, Haren, Sanchez or Swisher? They might not want to sign them with the funds they have, but they have the funds.

 

What Victorino does is give another versatile veteran presence who has played on winning teams for a relatively team friendly length contract. The Sox will be introducing enough home grown talent the next few years that the salary will be under control.

 

Victorino might end up being very expensive bench depth, but when LL talks about having "deep depth" perhaps he's not talking about having AAAA players available at AAA. Perhaps he means having guys who would otherwise be starters/regular players elsewhere in a regular rotation at the MLB level.

 

I don't love the signing but I don't hate it either. The Sox are slowly building a clubhouse full of guys who, salaries aside, any team would love to have. These are character guys who aren't just character guys. They have skills too.

 

Remember, the salary is likely a tool to prevent the deal from having been 4 or 5 years, which is likely what Victorino and Napoli wanted. The Sox will be able to clear this money off the books soon, or could absorb the salary if they wanted to trade some of these guys in the future.

 

Finally, Napoli and Victorino and Ross all have decent health records. Having guys who are likely to stay in the lineup is a novel thing for the Sox.

 

That's a bunch of nonsense.

 

Cherington is building a 100 loss team.

 

They might as well trade Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, and Ortiz because Cherington is setting up the team for prolonged failure.

 

Maybe we can make the playoffs in 2015.

 

Cherington is just an idiot. If he really put a lot of stock in speed and defense he never would have dealt Josh Reddick for Bailey. Because Reddick is >>>>>>>>>> Victorino.

 

Victorino is a horrible hitter. I don't care how good he is on defense.

 

The line-up has no meat. It's like a 9 layer club sandwich all bread.

 

You can't advance beyond the regular season if your team can only score 1-2 runs a game!

[jung]

Well right now it is not much of a ball club. It is not today as good a ball club as it was the day before they made "the trade", as bad as that team was. That may be OK though. There is much to do for this to be a ball club instead of a disjointed bunch of names. It has surely been more a disjointed bunch of names than a ball club the last couple of years.

[MANNYHOF24]

Victorino = definite bench player by 2014, if not mid-2013. 3-years $39M.

Gomes = definite bench player by April 2013. 2-years $10M.

David Ross = definite bench player by April 2013. 2-years $6.2M.

 

That's $55.2M flushed down the toilet. For guys who are only going to provide negative production. But we don't have the fund to sign Hamilton, Haren, Sanchez, or Swisher?

 

Cherington needs to be fired, immediately.

 

That second round pick we are saving from not signing Swisher better become the next Ted Williams.

 

The Red Sox can support a 170 million dollar payroll. They are not even close to done yet. Can't you wait and see Ben's full plan play out before you make rash judgements?

[jung]

Well, Ells is not signing an extension and I don't see the Sox winning whatever competition there is for him. So, while my initial reaction was pretty bad, they need somebody like Victorino if they are going to say goodbye to Ells this year. Even if they get Hamilton, they still need somebody like this if Ells is outta' here.

 

If that is what is going on then I would think that sounds like a more thoughtful approach to trying to get outta' the mess they are in than I would have given them credit for.

[Lord Snow]

Why the fan base has turned against Ellsbury is beyond me. A gold glove defender, with elite speed, capable of a .900+ OPS and people are content swapping him for Shane Victornio.

 

Victorino is in decline. And such a bad signing for that money. Cody Ross is a far better player and only wanted 3-years $25M as much as an overpay as that would have been this Victorino deal is far worse. Victorino only would have made sense on a one-year Cody Ross-2012-type deal.

[User Name]

Jesus Christ, take some Midol man.

[kapsis21]

Victorino is an upgrade defensively and on stolen bases compared to Cody. but the amount we paid for him is a little over board. 13mill for a player who has nothing to offer offensively. we could have played Bradley Jr for crying out loud and it wouldnt have made too much of a difference.. I dont think he has anything left offensively but i hope he proves me wrong..