Should the Sox trade some Bullpen arms?

[User Name]

no matter how you put it the FO screwed up when they let go of a guy who knows how to close in Boston.

look at the stats for the amount of games we lost due the bullpen woes of Aceves/Bailey/Padilla last season

 

we had a lockdown for 8th and 9th inning guys. add Tazawa for the 7th inning that would have been freaking amazing bullpen

 

i know the money he was asking was little more but he could have easily gotten 4years/11 million by Boston and could have kept him with Boston due to the years he spent with us..

 

The problem wasn't letting Papelbon go. He's not a once-in-a-generation talent. The problem was not signing an adequate replacement. They had options. Look at the seasons Joe Nathan and Jonathan Broxton had for pennies compared to the Papelbon deal.

[mvp 78]

And this will prove that Papelbon is not a good closer? Again, what argument are you trying to make. You are insisting to an answer to a question that you posed on an essentially irrelevant point. What would an answer to this question prove about Papelbon in any way? I think that you have been jerking yourself around.

 

iortiz said that people kept babying some overpaid busts. I asked for examples. He couldn't give any and has evaded the question.

 

If you post something, at least attempt to back up what you wrote.

 

It's not my fault that he made a statement that wasn't relevent to Paps leaving. Is this a Paps thread or a trade the bullpen thread? Clearly there are multiple comversations going on. If iortiz didn't want to talk about overpaid busts that people coddle, he shouldn't have brought it up.

[Bellhorn04]

The problem wasn't letting Papelbon go. He's not a once-in-a-generation talent. The problem was not signing an adequate replacement. They had options. Look at the seasons Joe Nathan and Jonathan Broxton had for pennies compared to the Papelbon deal.

 

Nathan was making in the area of 10 million a year his last few years with the Twins. He missed all of 2010 and a big chunk of 2011 and at his age there was no guarantee he'd come back to where he was. Texas took a chance and it paid off. Even at that they're paying him 7 million a year. We took a chance with Bailey and it failed dismally in Year 1.

[iortiz]

iortiz said that people kept babying some overpaid busts. I asked for examples. He couldn't give any and has evaded the question.

 

If you post something, at least attempt to back up what you wrote.

 

It's not my fault that he made a statement that wasn't relevent to Paps leaving. Is this a Paps thread or a trade the bullpen thread? Clearly there are multiple comversations going on. If iortiz didn't want to talk about overpaid busts that people coddle, he shouldn't have brought it up.

 

I think we can drop this MVP.... it's getting nowhere

[User Name]

Nathan was making in the area of 10 million a year his last few years with the Twins. He missed all of 2010 and a big chunk of 2011 and at his age there was no guarantee he'd come back to where he was. Texas took a chance and it paid off. Even at that they're paying him 7 million a year. We took a chance with Bailey and it failed dismally in Year 1.

 

They took a chance because he looked strong at the end of 2011. All of the signs were there that he was about back. Look at his splits. As for the amount he's making, that's not the point. Look at the overall contract. It's nowhere near Papelbon's in time or money. And what about Broxton? Maybe they sign Madson and he doesn't tear his UCL.

 

The point is that they really didn't have the need to get into such a commitment for a RP. If they had kept Papelbon, the team would have tanked just as bad and they would probably be looking for ways to dump him right now.

[Bellhorn04]

For me, the thing about Papelbon's 7 straight years of 30+ saves is this: it shows that he stays on the field and does what he's paid to do, year-in, year-out. I think Papelbon works hard at keeping himself in great physical shape.

[mvp 78]

I think we can drop this MVP.... it's getting nowhere

 

Yeah, no s***.

[Bellhorn04]

It's not just Papelbon's saves, it's that his save percentage is very good. That has to be one of the key stats. Rivera's save percentage is incredible and that's why he's the best. It's not so much his number of saves as the fact that he hardly ever blows one.

[BSN07]

You guys may be looking at this wrong. The Sox didn't just let Papelbon go. They were so financially strapped with the Crawford, Agon, Beckett and Lackey deals they were not able to match or even overpay to keep Papelbon in town. I mean really, they had to trade Scutaro to be able to sign Ross. Where was the extra 15M per year coming from to match Phillies offer?

 

Now if the team had the financial flexibility it has now, I think they had a better chance of matching or even overpaying a bit to bring him back.

[jung]

I suspect the next time the Sox could actually put a really top of the line closer to good use will be 2014. What would a really top of the line closer have gotten them in 2012? How much of a dif do we really think it might make in 2013?

[jacksonianmarch]

If the sox goal is to rebuild, you sign a guy like Wilson or Soria and let them recoup value and deal them at the deadline for more moving parts

[mvp 78]

If the sox goal is to rebuild, you sign a guy like Wilson or Soria and let them recoup value and deal them at the deadline for more moving parts

 

Will Wilson bring the Machine?

[jung]

Wilson is going to stay out west. Soria would due fine although I would love to have Wilson.

[Bellhorn04]

I suspect the next time the Sox could actually put a really top of the line closer to good use will be 2014. What would a really top of the line closer have gotten them in 2012? How much of a dif do we really think it might make in 2013?

 

You should give yourself a shot if you can. Baltimore made the playoffs this year after going 69-93 in 2011, without even spending that much money. I don't understand all the defeatist, 'let's wait till 2014' thinking. We have a lot of room under the cap. It's crazy to just punt away 2013.

[RedSoxNC84]

He hasn't gotten to Mo money yet.

 

Mo money mo problems?

[iortiz]

Mo money mo problems?

 

Sounds like a rap song...

[jung]

I doubt they are going to punt it away but they are not going to compete for the division....just to far behind in players with to much ground to make up. They might be able to make one of the WC's. Frankly I don't think much of either of the WC's now. MLB should have left it like it was. The one WC deserved as much a shot at the crown as the division leaders did. The way it is now, even the 1st WC is somewhat handicapped.

 

The Sox just aren't going to end up with enough pitching to compete for the division and the WC's are as good as DOA. Heck I want them to get Hamilton this year. Having Hamilton and Ortiz in the middle of this year's lineup would be a hell of a lot more potent than these Swisher/Napoli lineups are gonna be. Considering how light there starting pitching is likely to be, they won't have enough juice to get past the Yanks pitching or the Jays hitting. So they might make 3rd and have a bunch of fun getting there but I don't see them making it past third in the AL East. That might be enough for the second WC but I doubt it and even if it is enough for a second WC. That and a quarter will get you a cup a coffee.

[Bellhorn04]

You guys may be looking at this wrong. The Sox didn't just let Papelbon go. They were so financially strapped with the Crawford, Agon, Beckett and Lackey deals they were not able to match or even overpay to keep Papelbon in town. I mean really, they had to trade Scutaro to be able to sign Ross. Where was the extra 15M per year coming from to match Phillies offer?

 

They could have come up with the money, it wouldn't have bankrupted the franchise. They didn't really have to trade Scutaro to sign Ross, although yes, that's what they told us.

 

They made a conscious decision to not exceed a certain payroll for 2012, I understand that. But it doesn't mean they made the right decision. The decision helped pave the way to a historically dismal season.

[jung]

Well the Sox saved $6M and they spent $3M. Do that a few times and you get to put a healthy chuck of change back into your pocket. Probably has a line item on the balance sheet, along with brick and bat sales.

[Bellhorn04]

I doubt they are going to punt it away but they are not going to compete for the division....just to far behind in players with to much ground to make up. They might be able to make one of the WC's. Frankly I don't think much of either of the WC's now. MLB should have left it like it was. The one WC deserved as much a shot at the crown as the division leaders did. The way it is now, even the 1st WC is somewhat handicapped.

 

The Sox just aren't going to end up with enough pitching to compete for the division and the WC's are as good as DOA. Heck I want them to get Hamilton this year. Having Hamilton and Ortiz in the middle of this year's lineup would be a hell of a lot more potent than these Swisher/Napoli lineups are gonna be. Considering how light there starting pitching is likely to be, they won't have enough juice to get past the Yanks pitching or the Jays hitting. So they might make 3rd and have a bunch of fun getting there but I don't see them making it past third in the AL East. That might be enough for the second WC but I doubt it and even if it is enough for a second WC. That and a quarter will get you a cup a coffee.

 

I don't like the new WC setup either. I think it's rinky-dink. However, I think we've already seen that the second WC can win it all. If St. Louis didn't lose Game 5 at home to the Giants, and Barry Zito no less, they'd likely be your 2012 champs.

[jung]

2013 will see the LDS series return to 2-2-1 with the team with the better record starting at home and finishing at home. That will make it harder for the WC to survive that round.

 

Since MLB appears or claims to be dead set on making the better records and especially the division championships more valuable I would not be totally surprised to see the LCS go from a 2-3-2 formate to a 2-2-3 format in cases where a WC team has gotten that far and is facing a division winner. That would force the WC team to play the last 3 games of the series away if they have gotten that far.

 

One driving force there might be the fear of seeing two teams get to the WS only to have one team just completely overwhelm the other...a real embarrassment for one league president or the other and a real let down for MLB in general as the preference would be for tight, hard fought, 7 game WS. One team did get overwhelmed by the other this year but for reasons that likely have little to do with the schedule or the format. At any rate i don't think they are much interested in seeing a 5 seed get all the way to the WS and end up facing a 1 seed there.

 

I realize that sounds gimmicky as heck but this is what happens when you start monkeying around with what was a good system cause you desire a particular result in attendance and post season success. MLB has left itself open now to the possibility of a league 5 seed getting all the way to the WS and while they are already trying to have their cake and eat it to, by scheming to prevent that, I don't expect them to stop here.

 

The experience of the Cards team really helped them in 2012. Frankly they never should have gotten out of the Nats series. The Nats suddenly realized where they were in game 5 of that series and suffered a terminal case of apple-throatitis. Then again if the Nats had found a way to get their kid wonder-pitcher to the post season, they might have rolled over the Cards even with their edge in experience.

[kapsis21]

The problem wasn't letting Papelbon go. He's not a once-in-a-generation talent. The problem was not signing an adequate replacement. They options. Look at the seasons Joe Nathan and Jonathan Broxton had for pennies compared to the Papelbon deal.

 

Nathan was good Broxton was a long shot. He is still dodgy at times so 9th inning in boston i dont think he could have couped with the pressure here. i agree that giving papelbon too much money was not going to work but he has the innings no of saves and era to back up his big paycheck...thats all I am saying...and he was a lock for the 9th inning

[Plumpamania]

I had fingers crossed everytime Paps came out that final season with us. He always loaded the bases it seemed.

[a700hitter]

I had fingers crossed everytime Paps came out that final season with us. He always loaded the bases it seemed.

I think you might be remembering 2010. Papelbon did not give up a lot of base runners in 2011.

[RedSoxNC84]

I think you might be remembering 2010. Papelbon did not give up a lot of base runners in 2011.

 

Yeah, he just allowed walkoff singles in tie games that were crucial to the team getting a playoff berth :harhar:

[jung]

I was not in favor of keeping Paps at the price for a number of reasons but he was misused in 2011 as he and Aceves were all that was left of a damned good bullpen after that starting rotation was done with it. Paps ended up pitching to many 1+ stints at the end of the season and it wore him out to the point where he became ineffective in 1 inning and in 1+ inning stints.

 

This rotation has burned through good bull pens two years in a row under completely different management styles. At some point you have to believe it is less about the manager and more about the rotation.

[mvp 78]

He had two appearances over one inning that September (four all year). How is he worth that contract if he can only get you three outs. Mo laughs at that...

[Bellhorn04]

He had two appearances over one inning that September (four all year). How is he worth that contract if he can only get you three outs. Mo laughs at that...

 

Papelbon pitched more innings than Mo in 09, 10 and 11.

[mvp 78]

Papelbon pitched more innings than Mo in 09, 10 and 11.

 

He's also 40 and doesn't need excuses when he pitches over an inning.

[Bellhorn04]

He's also 40 and doesn't need excuses when he pitches over an inning.

 

Papelbon can go more than an inning. Of his 18 appearances in the postseason, 13 of them were more than an inning, the first 12 of which were scoreless.