Rotation

[iortiz]

I am so glad that the Red Sox didn't sacrifice any of their elite pitching prospects. You don't want to sacrifice the future. LOL!

 

[a700hitter]

Marlins didn't want any of the MiLB pitchers. If that was a point of contention, you'd be right. It wasn't, so you're not.

Are you arguing with yourself again?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am so glad that the Red Sox didn't sacrifice any of their elite pitching prospects. You don't want to sacrifice the future. LOL!

 

Come on now a700.

 

Just because the Sox have had a bit of a draught doesn't mean it's not the best course of action to develop players internally and retain a core at least until FA.

 

Where would the Sox be without Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk, Pap, Lester, Trot, etc?

 

Certainly wouldn't have had the 2007 championship.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And now, more than ever, when the cost of even a #3 pitcher like Garza or Sanchez is reaching $90-100mm, it's even more imperative that you retain the guys who have the high ceilings like De La Rosa, Barnes, Webster, Owens, etc.

[a700hitter]

Come on now a700.

 

Just because the Sox have had a bit of a draught doesn't mean it's not the best course of action to develop players internally and retain a core at least until FA.

 

Where would the Sox be without Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youk, Pap, Lester, Trot, etc?

 

Certainly wouldn't have had the 2007 championship.

The track record producing good starting pitching has been thin.

[example1]

A700, how would you feel if the Sox went all out for Grienke right now? Positive? Negative?

[a700hitter]

A700, how would you feel if the Sox went all out for Grienke right now? Positive? Negative?

What is "all out"? Years? $?

[example1]

I guess to reframe it, if someone else pays the FA cost for Greinke, will you be lamenting his loss or will you be okay with it? I don't know where you stand on the "anxiety" issues, let alone his significant cost as a FA.

 

I just think he's an interesting option. 3.42 ERA over his last 1157 IP. He's definitely a front-line starter and at 28 he's about as young a FA starting pitcher as we will see for awhile. I have concerns about him, but the Sox are desperately in need of some rotation help and he's undoubtedly got the best track record of anyone available.

 

Let's say, slightly less than CC Sabathia's first contract with the Yankees as a comp (7/161 with an opt-out clause).

[a700hitter]

I guess to reframe it, if someone else pays the FA cost for Greinke, will you be lamenting his loss or will you be okay with it? I don't know where you stand on the "anxiety" issues, let alone his significant cost as a FA.

 

I just think he's an interesting option. 3.42 ERA over his last 1157 IP. He's definitely a front-line starter and at 28 he's about as young a FA starting pitcher as we will see for awhile. I have concerns about him, but the Sox are desperately in need of some rotation help and he's undoubtedly got the best track record of anyone available.

 

Let's say, slightly less than CC Sabathia's first contract with the Yankees as a comp (7/161 with an opt-out clause).

I think the anxiety issue is overblown, and I have said that numerous times. It seems to be an issue that has been under control for several years. He continues to thrive after a couple of trades, pennant races, and he has played in a big market. Is he a special horse like CC? I don't think so, but he is a very nice arm. I'd love to get him for a contract like Gio Gonzalez got from the Nats. I would do that in a heart beat. I would not want Greinke if he is so cost prohibitive that we can't add a second pitcher, because the Sox need two pitchers, not one. I feel most strongly that two solid guys are needed.

 

Will I be pissed when he signs elsewhere? Definitely, if he signs in the AL East.

[Orange Juiced]

I think the anxiety issue is overblown, and I have said that numerous times. It seems to be an issue that has been under control for several years. He continues to thrive after a couple of trades, pennant races, and he has played in a big market. Is he a special horse like CC? I don't think so, but he is a very nice arm. I'd love to get him for a contract like Gio Gonzalez got from the Nats. I would do that in a heart beat. I would not want Greinke if he is so cost prohibitive that we can't add a second pitcher, because the Sox need two pitchers, not one. I feel most strongly that two solid guys are needed.

 

Will I be pissed when he signs elsewhere? Definitely, if he signs in the AL East.

 

Will you be pissed if he signs a 6 year, $150 million contract with someone else? If the Sox offered 5/$110 and someone else just went bonkers and blew that away, would you still be mad at Cherington?

 

I ask this because while I agree with you on the Toronto thing (wish the Sox could/would have swung that deal, though it sounds like what they were asking for from Boston was crazy much), I think we both agree that there is a line you draw and that it's possible for the Sox to be very much involved in these things but not be able to finish the deal b/c someone else comes in and just overwhelms the process. And in such a situation it's hard to blame the Sox.

[rjortiz]

No one will offer Grienke $25 million annually. I think the point of contention is that some people don't even want to offer him a contract, because of his anxiety disorder. He's proven to be a good reliable front of the rotation starter, something this team badly needs. If they have to pay the premium, because they didn't develop any starters on their own, then so be it.

[a700hitter]

Will you be pissed if he signs a 6 year, $150 million contract with someone else? If the Sox offered 5/$110 and someone else just went bonkers and blew that away, would you still be mad at Cherington?

 

I ask this because while I agree with you on the Toronto thing (wish the Sox could/would have swung that deal, though it sounds like what they were asking for from Boston was crazy much), I think we both agree that there is a line you draw and that it's possible for the Sox to be very much involved in these things but not be able to finish the deal b/c someone else comes in and just overwhelms the process. And in such a situation it's hard to blame the Sox.

I'll be pissed if he signs with an the AL East team.

[jung]

Well unless I missed something, it did not look like the Jays overwhelmed the process. I do wonder if the reports about WMB and one of the B's are accurate and the Sox never counter-offered. Hard to tell at this point.

 

Maybe what happened is that the Sox rejected Reyes out of hand and the Jays didn't.

[rjortiz]

Well unless I missed something, it did not look like the Jays overwhelmed the process. I do wonder if the reports about WMB and one of the B's are accurate and the Sox never counter-offered. Hard to tell at this point.

 

Maybe what happened is that the Sox rejected Reyes out of hand and the Jays didn't.

 

Sounds like ********. Apparently, every time another team makes a move, we hear one of these reports that they asked for our best three prospects, but settle for crap from the other team.

[jung]

If anything it almost looks like the Sox really overstepped the BS this time as I am having such a hard time believing that the Marlins asked for WMB and a B from the Sox and then took what they took from the Jays.

 

I would more believe that the Sox balked at Reyes.

[Bellhorn04]

If anything it almost looks like the Sox really overstepped the BS this time as I am having such a hard time believing that the Marlins asked for WMB and a B from the Sox and then took what they took from the Jays.

 

I would more believe that the Sox balked at Reyes.

 

I copied this from a poster on the BDC forum who usually does his homework.

 

The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

 

The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of five immediate years of Middlebrooks.

 

Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

 

Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

 

Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 89 ERA+

 

Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

 

Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

 

Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

 

Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

 

Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

[Orange Juiced]

I'll be pissed if he signs with an the AL East team.

 

Well I won't be happy either, but will you be angry with Cherington if the Sox offer Grienke $20 million a year but someone else just absolutely blows that away?

[a700hitter]

Well I won't be happy either, but will you be angry with Cherington if the Sox offer Grienke $20 million a year but someone else just absolutely blows that away?

Not if he can get us 2 other pitchers.

[a700hitter]

I copied this from a poster on the BDC forum who usually does his homework.

 

The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

 

The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of five immediate years of Middlebrooks.

 

Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

 

Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

 

Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 89 ERA+

 

Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

 

Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

 

Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

 

Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

 

Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

None of this matters. That horse is out of the barn. Toronto improved its team and we are still a bag of s***. Our guy has done nothing to address the team's biggest need since October 2011.

[example1]

I copied this from a poster on the BDC forum who usually does his homework.

 

The Blue Jay package of Jake Marisnick, Henderson Alvarez, Justin Nicolino, Adeiny Hechavarria, Yunel Escobar, Jeff Mathis and Anthony DeSchalfani was the rough equivalent of the Red Sox offering Will Middlebrooks, Felix Doubront, Matt Barnes, Jose Iglesias, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney and Miguel Pena.

 

The 24-year-old Middlebrooks impressed this year in his 75-game MLB debut, but entered the 2012 season as Baseball America's 51st-ranked prospect. In contrast, outfielder Jack Marisnick entered the season as BA's 67th-ranked prospect. Their stocks headed is different directions this year but the 21-year-old Marisnick may have more room for development. Six distant years of Marisnick could approach the value of five immediate years of Middlebrooks.

 

Compare the 2012 stats for Henderson Alvarez and Felix Doubront, who is 2 1/2 years older than Alvarez:

 

Alvarez 31 GS, 187.1 IP, 4.85 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 88 ERA+

 

Doubront 29 GS, 161 IP, 4.86 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 89 ERA+

 

Twenty-year-old pitcher Justin Nicolino ranks 20th on John Sickels' recently released list of Top 50 pitching prospects. To provide perspective, 22-year-old Matt Barnes ranked 18th, 22-year-old Allen Webster 40th and 20-year-old Henry Owens 49th.

 

Shortstop Adeiny Hechavarria has a decent glove and a better bat than Jose Iglesias, who is only nine months younger than the 23-year-old Hechavarria.

 

Yunel Escobar, a 30-year-old shortstop who is owed $5 million next season in the final year of his contract, has career WAR of 18.7, including three seasons at 3.6 or above. Jarrod Saltalanmacchia is projected to earn $3.9 million in his final arbitration year but the 27-year-old catcher has been valued at only 3.9 WAR in his entire career.

 

Catcher Jeff Mathis and outfielder Ryan Sweeney are known more for their defense skills than for their hitting. The 29-year-old Mathis, who posted 0.8 WAR in 71 games last season, is scheduled to earn $1.5 million in each of the next two years. The 27-year-old Sweeney, who posted a 0.7 WAR in 67 games last season, is projected to earn $1.8 million next season in his final arbitration year.

 

Pitcher Anthony DeSchlafani is the rough righthanded equivalent of Red Sox pitching prospect Miguel Pena. They were taken three picks apart in the sixth round of the 2011 draft and posted good numbers at the Single A level this year.

 

All solid points. I think the assumption that the Marlins dealt these guys for absolute crap is misguided and, frankly, biased by peoples' assumption about Cherrington's ability to judge talent.

[a700hitter]

All solid points. I think the assumption that the Marlins dealt these guys for absolute crap is misguided and, frankly, biased by peoples' assumption about Cherrington's ability to judge talent.

No one knows if Cherington is doing a good job or a bad job. We are still waiting for him to do his job. We are still waiting for him to address the needs of this team. Then we can pass judgment. All we know now is that Toronto was the better team in 2012 and they just got better. There is no disputing that.

[BSN07]

No one knows if Cherington is doing a good job or a bad job. We are still waiting for him to do his job. We are still waiting for him to address the needs of this team. Then we can pass judgment. All we know now is that Toronto was the better team in 2012 and they just got better. There is no disputing that.

 

Part of the job is to show some restraint. Something the franchise has not done of late. There is no elite talent available without ? marks. The 2nd tier guys seem to be wanting big money. I mean Anibal Sanchez asking for 100m? That is very worrying.

 

I think we need to give this FO group another year or two before we judge if they are able to develop Pitching or not. Since they have taken over there seems to be more quality arms in the pipeline.

 

Patience has never been your deal, but it's something you should probably expect. I too would like to see the Sox rebuilt in one off season and back in contention next season. But it's just not that easy unfortunately. Let's see what some of these guys do at the ML level, where is the fun in writing them off now? I mean last year you said no one currently in the minors was going to contribute anything of note for the next couple seasons. And then Middlebrooks crashes onto the scene. You just never know a700.

 

As far as Grienke goes, I would be ok with him. But like you guys said it all a matter of how much the deal is. If the can get him at 4-5 years at 17-22M AAV then I'm intrigued. If it starts getting up to 6-7 years plus at 20M+ a year, then that may be too much of a risk at this point in time.

[a700hitter]

Part of the job is to show some restraint. Something the franchise has not done of late. There is no elite talent available without ? marks. The 2nd tier guys seem to be wanting big money. I mean Anibal Sanchez asking for 100m? That is very worrying.

 

I think we need to give this FO group another year or two before we judge if they are able to develop Pitching or not. Since they have taken over there seems to be more quality arms in the pipeline.

 

Patience has never been your deal, but it's something you should probably expect. I too would like to see the Sox rebuilt in one off season and back in contention next season. But it's just not that easy unfortunately. Let's see what some of these guys do at the ML level, where is the fun in writing them off now? I mean last year you said no one currently in the minors was going to contribute anything of note for the next couple seasons. And then Middlebrooks crashes onto the scene. You just never know a700.

 

As far as Grienke goes, I would be ok with him. But like you guys said it all a matter of how much the deal is. If the can get him at 4-5 years at 17-22M AAV then I'm intrigued. If it starts getting up to 6-7 years plus at 20M+ a year, then that may be too much of a risk at this point in time.

Being a Red Sox fan for 46 years has taken a lot of patience, so don't tell me that I am not patient. Cherries has patience down. What we don't know is if he has any ability to build a team.

 

As for saying that we had no help coming from the minors, I made that statement in 2010, not last year (2012). WMB did come out of nowhere and with or without him we would have finished in last place last year. Building a team takes more than waiting for minor leaguers to get promoted. Our minor league system is not very strong, so like it or not, Cherries is going to have to look outside the organization just to raise the level of play to respectable.

[BSN07]

Well I'm more commenting on your policy since I've known you. And hey it's not wrong to want your team to make moves to get more competitive. I think everyone wants that. I think the speed that it happens is really the only thing people are disagreeing on. It's either slower rebuild from within, retool and bring in guys on short term deals, or go crazy Blue Jays on everyone's ass. I don't like the risk involved with the latter. I'm hoping the are going with more option 2, but if they go with the first choice then well I guess we have to dig in for the long haul.

 

I will say one thing good about the current losing ways of the Sox. It's really purged a lot of the bandwagon fans that became the face of the fan base there for awhile

[SoxSport]

I don't think those Toronto vs Boston trade comparisons hold much water. Not unless Miami confirms the Red Sox part. Most fans don't believe it.

 

Middlebrooks is by far the best player discussed, and I doubt Miami would ask for a guy they know is virtually untouchable. Plus I don't think the Sox would put him on the table for what amounts to a salary dump they just went through themselves. Could be somebody is trying to save face here, floating a red herring.

[jung]

Well no question that there would have been more players besides WMB and Bogaerds. But I don't think the Sox had a legit way to send WMB packing. What would they have done without WMB, Bogaerds and Iggy.

 

I would have been happy to see Felix go in any deal that brought back the two arms that the Jays got so I would not have had an issue with Felix. I could do without Ryan Sweeney also. Barnes I think falls into my category of a pitching prospect that is closer to the bigs than the so called comparative Nicolino. So that is my problem with that comparison. Iggy can go as long as we keep Bogaerds. They could have Salty also. Even though he is a pitcher, I would be OK with seeing Pena go also cause he has a way to go to get to the bigs.

 

So lets see, so far, I would be OK with seeing Salty, Iggy, Pena, Sweeney and Felix go. I think I would have offered Owens instead of Barnes.

 

So that would have gotten them Salty, Iggy, Pena, Sweeney, Owens and Felix. I wonder if adding Ciriaco and Gomez would have been attractive to the Marlins. Not sure we have a way to give them WMB. They are dumping Salary.

 

The issue is not one of the Jays giving up crap as much as it is not feasible to give them WMB and Iggy and Bogaerds who was in the earlier posts with WMB.

 

I probably would have tried to find a way to keep Owens but I would not have said offering Owens in the deal was out of the question.

[reYoukilis]

They say that this years crop of free agents is pretty weak so I dont want to go crazy filling up a roster. That'd put us back in the predicament we just left. The only person out there that Id like to spend serious money on would be Greinke. Other than that, Id like to find some diamonds in the rough and wait til we get exactly the guy we want.

 

Having said that I would like to go for a championship while Papi is still good.

[jung]

There are deals for starting pitchers out there to be done.

 

Media saying that the Jays wanted Reyes and I would have thought the Sox would not have wanted him. I do not want him at his salary.

[Palodios]

The two guys that really interest me right now are Jeremy Guthrie and Shaun Marcum. They're both AL East pitchers who throw big innings. AND, they're both going to get reasonable contracts.

 

I understand they both have question marks from last season, but AL East middle of the rotation pitchers available for cheap... why hesitate?

[jung]

Makes sense....will just have to be careful how they work around Felix. He has no options left and he can't work out of the pen. So either he stays in the rotation and pitches this year or he moves on. Not sure what they really want to do with him but there is no flexibility left in his contract situation with the Sox.