Rotation

[DocHolliday]

I have faith that no team can be in so much disarray. There must be some reason going on behind the scenes. Right?

 

It seems that absolutely no reason has been going on for quite some time now.

 

Until they give us a significant period of time where they make better decisions than they have in the past, all we are left to do is continue to hope- while building up more anger and hostility towards their apparent incompetence.

 

The longer they leave us in the dark, the more ground they will have to make up, IMO.

[lospunchados]

I just read again something i forgot about. John Lackey had a clause in his contract that said if he missed any significant time due to injury he automatically added a 6th year for league minimum to his contract. I'm not sure if i'm happy or i hate this.

[jung]

Well as I posted across in the other thread when the Sox do nothing to address a glaring weakness and then dust off that tired old Dempster deal, one goes from concerned to alarmed. Never mind that the pickings are slim for pitchers this year. As they sit right now, they will be lucky to end up with a 7 as the first number of their wins total for 2013.

 

If they they don't allow the kids to play, don't improve the pitching the least little bit yet don't really do more than they have so far, to make a 2013 effort, that is a forfeit of the year...the complete sacrifice of a year without accomplishing a thing. That is not anything that anybody up there in the executive offices is going to be able to explain because there is actually only one way to explain it. They simply do not know where they are...who they are...and where they need to go at this point. They are in the only situation worse than thinking you are a couple players away from making a run and willing to make crazy deals to get those players. They are stuck in the limbo of not knowing whether they are really in rebuild mode or in contend mode. In truth...they are in rebuild mode but apparently haven't the guts to admit it to themselves....let alone anybody else.

[Bellhorn04]

The inertia on the pitching front is amazing. It'll be a sad joke if they do no more than make an offer to Ryan Dumpster. If that's the way it ends up, I hope the team wins 68 games and Cherington is fired mid-season.

[Palodios]

Boston has shown an interest in Ryan Dempster, Kyle Lohse, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum and Anibal Sanchez, according to Sean McAdam of Comcast Sports Net. The Red Sox are still looking to sign players to shorter term contracts, so it may be unrealistic to go after a pitcher like Sanchez.

 

Ugh. Sounds like the Red Sox are ignoring Edwin Jackson. I bet they'll end up signing Lohse and Liriano-- Lohse will turn to a complete bust, and Liriano will stay a complete bust.

[BSN07]

I can not believe the Sox weren't in on Bauer... Cleveland traded one season on Shoo and junk and got Bauer and prospects...

[User Name]

Maybe the Sox weren't in on him because Bauer isn't really that good? He has upside, but he's very wild. Don't understand what the fascination is with the guy.

[BSN07]

Maybe the Sox weren't in on him because Bauer isn't really that good? He has upside, but he's very wild. Don't understand what the fascination is with the guy.

 

I said it in the other thread but he's a high upside SP prospect. This is what the team should be looking to add if it's trying to avoid the pricey FA market.

 

Cleveland gave up junk for one of the better SP prospects. I'm sure every fan base this morning is wondering why their team wasn't involved. I know he has issues but I'm going off his talent and the fact he's young enough to still get it together. He's bee a pro like what? One year?

[User Name]

I said it in the other thread but he's a high upside SP prospect. This is what the team should be looking to add if it's trying to avoid the pricey FA market.

 

Cleveland gave up junk for one of the better SP prospects. I'm sure every fan base this morning is wondering why their team wasn't involved. I know he has issues but I'm going off his talent and the fact he's young enough to still get it together. He's bee a pro like what? One year?

 

So? If the Sox didn't think he was their guy, then they didn't think he was their guy. Every trade that another team makes is not a failure on the Sox' part. I, for one, would not have been happy if they had gotten Bauer. He's had the same control and attitude problems since before he was a pro. That's not what the Sox need right now.

[Spitball]

I said it in the other thread but he's a high upside SP prospect. This is what the team should be looking to add if it's trying to avoid the pricey FA market.

 

Cleveland gave up junk for one of the better SP prospects. I'm sure every fan base this morning is wondering why their team wasn't involved. I know he has issues but I'm going off his talent and the fact he's young enough to still get it together. He's bee a pro like what? One year?

 

But who knew the Diamondbacks would trade Bauer for so little? They basically received the Reds' number six prospect and gave up one of the top five in all of baseball.

[SoxSport]

The Red Sox have several top pitching prospects right now. Not sure they are in the market for another. I hear Bauer had a problem with Montero, the DBacks catcher. Not sure that's a factor with other teams.

 

Would rather see them sign Wilson for the bullpen, as Bard may not come back and Bailey is a continuous injury risk.

[dupree]

The Red Sox have several top pitching prospects right now. Not sure they are in the market for another. I hear Bauer had a problem with Montero, the DBacks catcher. Not sure that's a factor with other teams.

 

Would rather see them sign Wilson for the bullpen, as Bard may not come back and Bailey is a continuous injury risk.

 

The Beard needs to be in Boston!!! Papelbon had an electric presence coming out to close out the game, but Wilson would trump that & he would solidify the back in of the bullpen when he is back fully healthy. Maybe after the ASB then until he is back to his old dominant form. Until then let him pitch the 7&8 innings until he is ready to take Baileys spot .

[jung]

I would love to see the Beard here. The Sox have so much to do before getting to the 9th inning but if they could make enough progress elsewhere, the Beard would be great in Boston.

[Orange Juiced]

But who knew the Diamondbacks would trade Bauer for so little? They basically received the Reds' number six prospect and gave up one of the top five in all of baseball.

 

Bauer is exactly the kind of guy the Sox should have made a push for. I'd have done Ellsbury for Bauer straight up and then signed Hamilton. Ellsbury at his best is much better than Choo.

 

Me not happy.....

[Palodios]

So? If the Sox didn't think he was their guy, then they didn't think he was their guy.

 

My concern is... if Bauer isn't their guy, who is? Dempster? Lohse?

 

They've talked about adding value and short contracts, but they've overpaid mostly everyone. I can absolutely appreciate going for great clubhouse players but so far their strategy makes no sense to me.

 

So far they have a 70-80 win team that is straying the line between being a playoff team, and being a rebuilding team. Overpaying pitchers in their mid 30s, and grabbing the 15th pick in the draft every year won't help anything.

[Rdsxmbnt]

My concern is... if Bauer isn't their guy, who is? Dempster? Lohse?

 

They've talked about adding value and short contracts, but they've overpaid mostly everyone. I can absolutely appreciate going for great clubhouse players but so far their strategy makes no sense to me.

 

So far they have a 70-80 win team that is straying the line between being a playoff team, and being a rebuilding team. Overpaying pitchers in their mid 30s, and grabbing the 15th pick in the draft every year won't help anything.

 

I disagree I think their strategy makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately the plan isn't nearly as 'sexy' as most fans would hope. Sure they have a ton of payroll to spend but their plan isn't to re-lock themselves into long term contracts and hope this next batch of big name FA's works out.

 

Thus they realize they can't field a horrible team but at the same time don't want to mortgage their financial future on a fairly mediocre FA class. I think if they saw someone they really liked they would make a long term move, but more and more the sense I get is that Hamilton is not that guy, neither is Sanchez, and neither was Grienke.

 

I also think the plan revolves hugely around prospects and player development. Hence the short term contracts (3 years and less) and their commitment to holding onto the 2nd round pick.

 

If their goal is to produce a decently competitive team while maintaining flexibility and holding onto prospects/draft picks then I think every move makes quite a bit of sense. Again these moves aren't the most energizing but they all fit a very similar pattern. I also don't see Ellsbury getting moved. If he performs well then you can lock up a guy star who you know performs in Boston. And even if he doesn't sign then you get a draft pick.

[jung]

That dooms them to buckets and buckets of empty seats next year and I don't believe for a minute that the Sox brass would "plan" around that. Which is my point...they refuse to believe they are actually and should be in rebuild mode. But they can have their cake and eat it to if they are smart about it. Nobody is getting long term deals so far this year from anybody so I don't even know where that is coming from.

[SoxSport]

Dempster is a warning sign they are going in the wrong direction--again. Developing prospects and tying up roster spaces for declining vets so the prospects get stuck in AAA. Why can't they see that? They have two pitchers from the Dodgers plus one or two others, including that knuckleballer who can pitch anywhere. On many teams, the prospects get a chance to crack the rotation. On the Red Sox, the rotation gets filled by FAs and fading vets. And the prospects fester in AAA. Great for Pawtucket, which won their league last year. Bad for the Red Sox, who refuse to improve their pitching from within.

[Rdsxmbnt]

That dooms them to buckets and buckets of empty seats next year and I don't believe for a minute that the Sox brass would "plan" around that. Which is my point...they refuse to believe they are actually and should be in rebuild mode. But they can have their cake and eat it to if they are smart about it. Nobody is getting long term deals so far this year from anybody so I don't even know where that is coming from.

 

I don't think it does though. Maybe the sellout streak ends but do you really think Fenway will ever be anywhere near empty? Red Sox are so ingrained into Boston culture that it will always be nearly full every night whether the team sucks or not.

 

I think they are betting on big bounce back years from Ellsbury/Lester/Lackey and that these moves this offseason will supplement that production. I don't think the Red Sox are a bonafide contender next year but I think they will be a potentially competitive team.

 

Also very much disagree that Dempster clogs the rotation. You can never have enough depth, I would guarantee that if any of Webster/Barnes/De La Rosa are ready next year that they will get their chance to pitch in the majors. Dempster on a two year deal doesn't affect that at all. Sanchez on a 5-year deal very much clogs a spot long term.

[jung]

Good luck with that. You simply don't get that lucky in ML baseball except in the rarest of occasions. You certainly cannot plan for it. You think the Orioles planed on winning what was it....29 one run games last year? Of course not.

 

Ells biggest problem is that if he is not perfectly and I mean perfectly healthy he does not produce serious numbers. His swing is seriously impaired when he is not perfect and he is not strong enough to just muscle the ball. How often is Ells perfectly healthy?

 

You want to bet that both Lester and Lackey will have big years? How about the other ??? in the Sox rotation which by the way is still short one arm just to make five!

 

As for attendance...you don't think this mess in this economy could cost them at least 2,500 in attendance per game at the gate if not 5,000 per game? Do you know how much money that is at their ticket prices plus concessions? Just 200,000 attendees at the gate is like wiping out 5-6 home games. 400,000 at the gate is like wiping out 10-11 home games. This is a team that has not seen much money flow to the bottom line in the last couple of seasons.

 

A low payroll could see more money flow to the bottom line but once fans stop coming it is much more difficult than people think it is to bring them back. People just get used to spending that money on other things. In addition, if that snowball gets rolling downhill the wrong way into a perception that it will be years plural before they are really back to competing, then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

 

The plan all of the years of JH's ownership has been to keep prices at their peak by squeezing out more seating on a very tight schedule. The Sox have added seating at Femway only at rates that would not impact and swing the value proposition toward the fans. That has allowed them to keep the perceived value high, has kept the advanced ticket sales high and has kept ticket prices high. That has been the formula. They were never going to move out of Fenway. Where else could they just add seats as they saw fit.

 

However that house of cards comes tumbling down, if the demand for seats starts going the wrong way. They MUST have strong demand particularly in season seats and advanced sales. Without them the whole formula falls apart and very quickly.

[Bellhorn04]

Sanchez on a 5-year deal very much clogs a spot long term.

 

Based on his last 3 seasons Sanchez appears to have the potential to be a solid #2 or #3 for a number of seasons. That's not clogging a spot, it's filling a spot.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Based on his last 3 seasons Sanchez appears to have the potential to be a solid #2 or #3 for a number of seasons. That's not clogging a spot, it's filling a spot.

 

Lackey was better than Sanchez before he came to Boston and he had been pitching in the AL exclusively. Lackey is absolutely clogging a spot and has been for the past 3 years more or less. I don't think the Red Sox want to lock themselves into a 6/90 contract with Sanchez only to see the same thing happen again, especially with Sanchez being almost exclusively an NL pitcher.

[iortiz]

Based on his last 3 seasons Sanchez appears to have the potential to be a solid #2 or #3 for a number of seasons. That's not clogging a spot, it's filling a spot.

 

Instead, we are pushing for Dempster who will be destroyed in the ALE and likely for 3 yrs.

[iortiz]

Nobody is saying that Sanchez or Jackson are elite or #1. Both are arguably #2 - #3. They are pitchers that could post 3.8-4.0 ERA in Boston. That's all we need for now. In 2014 look for a #1 SP, and then... You will have a very nice rotation. Ace, Sanchez, Lester, Buch, Jackson and Lackey and Douby as depth. Is this really unreachable? Really?

 

WTF are they seeing in Dempster? What? Geez!

[jung]

How often does this happen with the Sox. They fall in love with some guy and seem to stalk him from team to team until they finally land him by God. Never mind that he might not be worth landing...but they finally got their man. In Dempster's case it seems like they are going to stalk him till retirement. Agent must be laughing his ass off.

[DocHolliday]

Instead, we are pushing for Dempster who will be destroyed in the ALE and likely for 3 yrs.

 

If they are going to go 3 years on a pitcher, why are they not considering someone younger, more consistent, and more proven in the AL than Dempster? Even if they had to go 4, it seems to make a lot more sense to me to go after a Sanchez or Jackson than it does Dempster on 3 years.

 

Even spell check disagrees with Dempster and is trying to correct it to "dumpster" each time I type it. Puts a whole new spin on "dumpster diving" doesn't it?

[iortiz]

IMO he is asking for 36/3. Do not be surprised if he ends up with a 39/3... I'll be really pissed off! If so...

[jung]

I don't think I have ever seen the board so uniformly upchucking at the prospect of the Sox signing a player. Probably means there is no in between on this one. Either he is going to totally bomb if we sign him or he and the Sox are going to make us all look like idiots. So far if anything it looks like Dempster is reeling the Sox in....not the other way round. I suspect the Sox really do not fit into his plans and if he does come here it will be on a deal he just cannot refuse. I think I will go slit my wrists now.

[iortiz]

If they are going to go 3 years on a pitcher, why are they not considering someone younger, more consistent, and more proven in the AL than Dempster? Even if they had to go 4, it seems to make a lot more sense to me to go after a Sanchez or Jackson than it does Dempster on 3 years.

 

Even spell check disagrees with Dempster and is trying to correct it to "dumpster" each time I type it. Puts a whole new spin on "dumpster diving" doesn't it?

 

 

Seriously, I hope all this Dempster thing is just a rumor.

[SoxSport]

I heard Dempster wants to go to the NL. After seeing what he did for the Rangers, who can blame him.

Putting him in the AL East is like tying a stick of dynamite to his leg. He'll get destroyed.

 

There are conflicting reports out there on how the Sox view him. I hope Cafardo is wrong on this one.

 

It's disturbing to see the media hype pitching prospects like Bauer, as if they are immediate Cy Young candidates, while saying the Red Sox have to add pitching--with 2 or 3 top prospects sitting in AAA.

 

And that kid SS the DBacks just got--being compared to Jeter. A green kid who can't hit a lick--like Iglesias and Dee Gordon. Just a lot of BS hype.