Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

It's actually that there are people here who will call for "Move A" and then when "Move A" doesn't work out they will insult the intelligence of people who also liked move A (such as the FO), but who didn't have the information at the time to know that Move A wouldn't work out. They will call this hypocritical criticism "holding people accountable" even though it is in no way holding anyone accountable by any reasonable use of that term.

Not me. I'll insult the intelligence of our FO before they make any moves. I won't limit that criticism to our FO. There aren't a lot of intellectual giants in any FO. That being said, you don't need geniuses to make good baseball moves. Unfortunately, the FO people are the ones accountable for building the roster. If a move doesn't work out, they are the ones accountable. It doesn't matter how many fans agreed with the move. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the buck stops with the FO.

[seabeachfred]

Not me. I'll insult the intelligence of our FO before they make any moves. I won't limit that criticism to our FO. There aren't a lot of intellectual giants in any FO. That being said, you don't need geniuses to make good baseball moves. Unfortunately, the FO people are the ones accountable for building the roster. If a move doesn't work out, they are the ones accountable. It doesn't matter how many fans agreed with the move. Two wrongs don't make a right, and the buck stops with the FO.

 

Since the Red Sox have gone from the penthouse to the outhouse in five years, it stands to reason our front office hasn't done a very good job. That has to be obvious to everyone but the stubborn acoyltes who defend Cherington and Company, Lucchino and Henry to their last breath. It's no fun running down the front office but its a hell of lot less fun watching your team get the s*** knocked out of them as we've seen the past year.

 

The moves this winter have been pretty good in my opinion, that is, if we can finally finalize the Napoli mystery, but we still could have done a better job getting another decent pitcher or two. We have time to do that, but as I look at the team presently constructed just about everything, health, talent, luck, everything, break right for us this season for us to make the Playoffs, or maybe the gift of all gifts considering how poorly we've done the past few years, an AL East Title.

[mvp 78]

Since the Red Sox have gone from the penthouse to the outhouse in five years, it stands to reason our front office hasn't done a very good job. That has to be obvious to everyone but the stubborn acoyltes who defend Cherington and Company, Lucchino and Henry to their last breath.

 

Yeah, I think you don't really read other people's posts or just really struggle with reading comprehension. Every poster on here has said something negative about the FO at one time or another. Maybe you just have a terminal case of hyperbole?

[BSN07]

How about a little dose of realism here guys. You can talk of this trade not being a true gauge of who got the best of who until a few years down the road, but that is pure ********!!!!! Only ball washers and front office apologists would even dare to mutter such rubbish. The A's got a guy who will hit between 25-30 homers for the next few years, a minor league first baseman who is better than any first base prospect we have in our system. What did we get? A bum like Sweeney who showed no power, no speed and is no longer part of the team. We got a "closer" who came up lame doing a jumping jack, then was out for practically the whole freakin' season, and is no longer our closer.

 

This is a prime example of those of us who are criticized for being on the front office's case as to why we have gone from first to last in just five short years. You don't get there without a large number of those bungled moves no matter what the apologists and water carriers for the front office say.

 

So the fact I'm unwilling to not buy or sell the trade after 1 season, I'm a FO ballwasher? Brilliant.. Couldn't be I just have a different way of evaluating talent/moves then someone.

 

I understood the move. Doesn't mean I liked it. For what it's worth this move may very well been one of the last straws so to speak to finally get them to re-evaluate how they were going to shape the roster short and long term.

 

My opinion is the Sox FO/fanbase/media have all been in too much of "win now mode" the last few seasons. Actually to me the Lackey signing was the first sign of it. A lot of us forgot what wins Championships(build talent/core from within and add $ for the last piece that puts you over the top). Instead we wanted sure things so we all "knew" the Sox would be in the playoffs and didn't care what was spent or who they traded to have this "security". Ownership got used to the attention and all the $ it brought in and forgot throwing $ around doesn't typically win. What makes it worse is we watched first hand the Yankees do the same exact thing. Win championships with their own talent, then went bat s*** crazy gathering all the names to feed the fan base and media monster it had created and watched the team fail year after year after year. For the most part it looks like the Sox have shifted course from this to some extent this off season.

 

a700 is probably going to call this absurd and poppycock or something. But the proof is in all the reactions to the Sox off season. The win now fans and media are baffled at what the team is doing while the fans that look more at the development approach generally like how the team is approaching next season and the future.

[a700hitter]

As every off season comes to a close, people start making excuses for the FO. You start reading things like: the market was too high, no one was available, it a b ridge year etc., etc. I think people just are tryting to avoid the reality that the team isn't good enough to be a serious competitor and they want to start the season with hope. Even Fred has been susceptible to this false hope as he has said numerous time that he likes the moves made this off season and that he thinks the team will be improved. The reality is that the FO has made a very weak effort at improving the starting pitching which is our biggest need They are rolling the dice that last year's crew will improve. I think that is a bad strategy.

[BSN07]

As every off season comes to a close, people start making excuses for the FO. You start reading things like: the market was too high, no one was available, it a b ridge year etc., etc. I think people just are tryting to avoid the reality that the team isn't good enough to be a serious competitor and they want to start the season with hope. Even Fred has been susceptible to this false hope as he has said numerous time that he likes the moves made this off season and that he thinks the team will be improved. The reality is that the FO has made a very weak effort at improving the starting pitching which is our biggest need They are rolling the dice that last year's crew will improve. I think that is a bad strategy.

 

Those are not excuses. Those are factors(factors that were mentioned at the beginning of the off season and all the way through. It's not just popping up now) that you have to consider when building an organization. I think you may e the one avoiding reality if you can't grasp the factors have to e taken into consideration. Look what the Giants have done this off season. Did they go ape s*** crazy and ring in all the big boys to keep the current run going? No. And you can;t argue that teams lineup could have used a Hamilton in it. That would have been the typical sexy post WS win move. But they didn't do it. They have stuck to there overall plan and this is the reason they have won 2 out of the last 3 WS.

 

Who's trying to avoid reality? You and fred see the glass as empty. Some see it as half empty, and some see it as half full. Pretty sure no one around here is touting the team as a WS favorite, ut wel if I missed them then they are they glass full crowd.

 

I fully admit that the team has ? marks that if a certain few or a large number of the smaller one goes south it will be laze of glory epic. But I also except the fact that if a key few big? or many of the smaller one go right then the team will have a chance and will be interesting to watch next season.

[a700hitter]

Those are not excuses. Those are factors(factors that were mentioned at the beginning of the off season and all the way through. It's not just popping up now) that you have to consider when building an organization. I think you may e the one avoiding reality if you can't grasp the factors have to e taken into consideration. Look what the Giants have done this off season. Did they go ape s*** crazy and ring in all the big boys to keep the current run going? No. And you can;t argue that teams lineup could have used a Hamilton in it. That would have been the typical sexy post WS win move. But they didn't do it. They have stuck to there overall plan and this is the reason they have won 2 out of the last 3 WS.

 

Who's trying to avoid reality? You and fred see the glass as empty. Some see it as half empty, and some see it as half full. Pretty sure no one around here is touting the team as a WS favorite, ut wel if I missed them then they are they glass full crowd.

 

I fully admit that the team has ? marks that if a certain few or a large number of the smaller one goes south it will be laze of glory epic. But I also except the fact that if a key few big? or many of the smaller one go right then the team will have a chance and will be interesting to watch next season.

I read your whole post twice, and I have to admit that I can't find a coherent point in the entire post. Are you seriously comparing our FO to that of the Giants which have won championships in 2 of the last 3 seasons? I think we'd be basking in glory if we were in their position, and we wouldn't have any expectations for the off season. The Giants did the one key thing that they needed to do over the last couple of years. They kept their exceptional starting pitching intact. They extended Matt Cain and didn't let him get to Free Agency. They resisted the suggestions that they should trade a CY Young pitcher like Lincecum. They are sitting pretty. If I were a fan of theirs, I'd be giddy with happiness.

[BSN07]

I read your whole post twice, and I have to admit that I can't find a coherent point in the entire post. Are you seriously comparing our FO to that of the Giants which have won championships in 2 of the last 3 seasons? I think we'd be basking in glory if we were in their position, and we wouldn't have any expectations for the off season. The Giants did the one key thing that they needed to do over the last couple of years. They kept their exceptional starting pitching intact. They extended Matt Cain and didn't let him get to Free Agency. They resisted the suggestions that they should trade a CY Young pitcher like Lincecum. They are sitting pretty. If I were a fan of theirs, I'd be giddy with happiness.

 

No I'm saying that's the model they should be leaning towards(seems they are moving more towards that direction). Not the drunken sailor Pre 2008 Yankee approach.

 

I'm hoping for giddy happiness for us all lol That's why I'm willing to step back and see where this seemingly new direction takes the franchise.

 

edit: it appears my "b" button is not working all the time, that might have added some confusion to my post haha

[a700hitter]

No I'm saying that's the model they should be leaning towards(seems they are moving more towards that direction). Not the drunken sailor Pre 2008 Yankee approach.

 

I'm hoping for giddy happiness for us all lol That's why I'm willing to step back and see where this seemingly new direction takes the franchise.

 

edit: it appears my "b" button is not working all the time, that might have added some confusion to my post haha

It doesn't change the fact that thus far they really made little attempt to fix the starting pitching for the upcoming season. They have not articulated their reasons for this approach, but they are on record several times (even before acquiring Dempster) saying that their starting pitching is improved over last year. I am not in agreement with that.

[Dojji]

I'm not convinced that reasonable options were available to them to fix the rotation this offseason. FA has been getting shallower and shallower over the years and I can't think of a single guy on the market this year that I'd look at and say, "Yeah, this is definitely a guy who pushes everyone else in our rotation down on the depth chart."

 

Our problem is that our homegrown rotation options have either been flaming out or getting traded for position players, consistently, for a period of about 4 years now. When young guys aren't coming up and making themselves options at all for that long, that's going to start taking a toll on any rotation. That's a problem that needs to be fixed by NOT trading our young guys for every offensive stud that comes along just for one more attempt to contend.

[a700hitter]

a700 is probably going to call this absurd and poppycock or something. But the proof is in all the reactions to the Sox off season. The win now fans and media are baffled at what the team is doing while the fans that look more at the development approach generally like how the team is approaching next season and the future.

What "development approach"? They haven't acquired any young talent this offseason. They have signed an aging CF and a catcher/1B with a bad hip for big bucks. They signed a mediocre starter with little track record of success in the AL for big bucks. They have managed to pump up their payroll to $170 million. They signed a closer in his walk year. They have not traded Ellsbury for young talent even though Ellsbury is in his walk year and they are expected to let him walk. I have not seen any building with younger players or acquiring top prospects. I see little evidence of a cohesive strategy. This is not a win it now approach, because they have ignored the starting pitching need. It's not building for the future, because they have done none of that this off season. Whichever way they are going, it looks like the execution of the strategy has been poor.

[a700hitter]

I'm not convinced that reasonable options were available to them to fix the rotation this offseason. FA has been getting shallower and shallower over the years and I can't think of a single guy on the market this year that I'd look at and say, "Yeah, this is definitely a guy who pushes everyone else in our rotation down on the depth chart."

 

Our problem is that our homegrown rotation options have either been flaming out or getting traded for position players, consistently, for a period of about 4 years now. When young guys aren't coming up and making themselves options at all for that long, that's going to start taking a toll on any rotation. That's a problem that needs to be fixed by NOT trading our young guys for every offensive stud that comes along just for one more attempt to contend.

If the FA pool is thin, then trades should have been explored. If they wanted to be competitive now, they should have traded for established pitchers. If they are planning for the future, they should have traded for pitching prospects like Bauer. They have done neither. Great pitching is not going to show up at Fenway by itself and bit Cherries on the ass and say here we are. Sitting and doing nothing about the starting pitching this off season will not improve us in the short term or the long term.

[dupree]

What "development approach"? They haven't acquired any young talent this offseason. They have signed an aging CF and a catcher/1B with a bad hip for big bucks. They signed a mediocre starter with little track record of success in the AL for big bucks. They have managed to pump up their payroll to $170 million. They signed a closer in his walk year. They have not traded Ellsbury for young talent even though Ellsbury is in his walk year and they are expected to let him walk. I have not seen any building with younger players or acquiring top prospects. I see little evidence of a cohesive strategy. This is not a win it now approach, because they have ignored the starting pitching need. It's not building for the future, because they have done none of that this off season. Whichever way they are going, it looks like the execution of the strategy has been poor.

 

Agreed. Also i thought the trade for Hanrahan would have brought in a 1B/SP prospect but neither happened they got another projected utilty infielder. Didnt make much sense to me. Ive read where Jon Heyman keeps say the Sox are interested in Lohse how can they sign him with the cap they are done around the $170million mark plus a draft pick would have to be given to the Cardinals. So much this offseason that no one understands.

[Dojji]

If the FA pool is thin, then trades should have been explored.

 

If the FA pool is thin, the trade market is either going to be thin or prohibitively costly.

 

Sometimes the option to "be competitive now" does not plausibly exist. You need to deal with the distinct possibility that this is one of those times.

[User Name]

And how exactly do any of you know that trades for sp were not exploited? That's a ridiculous statement.

 

Also, what's hard to understand about the offseason? They focused on plugging holes and creating positional flexibility without tying themselves up long term and without giving up picks. This was done so they could stick to that development approach bsn mentioned but that a700hitter clearly doesn't understand.

[a700hitter]

If the FA pool is thin, the trade market is either going to be thin or prohibitively costly.

 

Sometimes the option to "be competitive now" does not plausibly exist. You need to deal with the distinct possibility that this is one of those times.

You obviously did not read my entire post, or you didn't understand it, or you chose to answer what you want to think I said.

[BSN07]

What "development approach"? They haven't acquired any young talent this offseason. They have signed an aging CF and a catcher/1B with a bad hip for big bucks. They signed a mediocre starter with little track record of success in the AL for big bucks. They have managed to pump up their payroll to $170 million. They signed a closer in his walk year. They have not traded Ellsbury for young talent even though Ellsbury is in his walk year and they are expected to let him walk. I have not seen any building with younger players or acquiring top prospects. I see little evidence of a cohesive strategy. This is not a win it now approach, because they have ignored the starting pitching need. It's not building for the future, because they have done none of that this off season. Whichever way they are going, it looks like the execution of the strategy has been poor.

 

They got prospects in the great purge deal. They have held onto all their top prospects and kept all their draft picks for what is being deemed a deep draft this upcoming year. How is that not a "development approach"?

[BSN07]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Some of you can't understand what they are doing because they aren't introducing stars at press conferences. They are taking a new approach to building the team and it's left some of the fan base in a state of limbo.

[a700hitter]

They have got prospects in the purge. They have held onto all their top prospects and kept all their draft picks for what is being deemed a deep draft. How is that not a "development approach"?

We were discussing what they did this off season. The purge was in August. They have done nothing developmental this off season. Their strategy has not been cohesive. Which of their moves this off season will build the starting pitching for the future? I am not seeing any. If the DBacks liked Choo for Bauer, maybe we could have explored that deal for Ells.

[a700hitter]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Some of you can't understand what they are doing because they aren't introducing stars at press conferences. They are taking a new approach to building the team and it's left some of the fan base in a state of limbo.

They have not articulated any such approach, so you are speculating as to their off season plan. Also, they have not made a single move this off season to build the future of this team's starting pitching. If you are going to assert a strategy that has not been articulated by the FO, you should have some evidence to back it up. Doing nothing is not a strategy for the future when your organization is thin on starting pitching talent at all levels.

[BSN07]

We were discussing what they did this off season. The purge was in August. They have done nothing developmental this off season. Their strategy has not been cohesive. Which of their moves this off season will build the starting pitching for the future? I am not seeing any. If the DBacks liked Choo for Bauer, maybe we could have explored that deal for Ells.

 

I was talking about when the team made a fundamental change. The purge deal was the first big act and obviously changed the course for the off season and future.

 

Maybe they did explore a deal for Ells? Do you know they didn't? From what I read a lot of teams are weary of Ells being in a walk year, injury history and Boras as an agent. Choo is more durable, so that probably made him more desirable.

 

Your problem is just because you don't hear they are working/discussing something you think they are sitting around the office playing paper football. Just because something doesn't make it to twitter or MLBTR doesn't mean nothing isn't happening or wasn't explored. Your other issue is your expecting the team to solve the problems in a certain way when they have shown they are going about it differently. If you could get past these things you probably would have a different look on the team going forward.

[a700hitter]

I was talking about when the team made a fundamental change. The purge deal was the first big act and obviously changed the course for the off season and future.

 

Maybe they did explore a deal for Ells? Do you know they didn't? From what I read a lot of teams are weary of Ells being in a walk year, injury history and Boras as an agent. Choo is more durable, so that probably made him more desirable.

 

Your problem is just because you don't hear they are working/discussing something you think they are sitting around the office playing paper football. Just because something doesn't make it to twitter or MLBTR doesn't mean nothing isn't happening or wasn't explored. Your other issue is your expecting the team to solve the problems in a certain way when they have shown they are going about it differently. If you could get past these things you probably would have a different look on the team going forward.

This is the off season thread. I have said over and over that they have done nothing this off season to improve the starting pitching in the short term or the future. They have done less to build the future of our starting pitching than the present. I am assuming they acquired Dempster for the present. I don't think his acquisition will help much. They have done nothing with an eye to the future.

 

As for your assertion that they might have made an offer of Ellsbury for Bauer and other trades, I don't care. Results count. Cleveland got the deal done and got back a nice young arm plus a replacement CFer in Stubbs. We didn't.

 

If they were trying to move Ellsbury, they should have made a more compelling argument, because Ells is a more talented player than Choo. If they questioned his injury-proneness, they should have made the case that he is fully healthy and that those injuries were freak incidents. They should have brought a DVD showing Ells doing his off season training. They didn't get the deal. That's all that matters. We don't know the effort so we can't judge it. There is a possibility that there was no effort. We can only judge results, because we don't know what efforts are being made. Other teams are improving their weaknesses. We have not.

[a700hitter]

Your problem is just because you don't hear they are working/discussing something you think they are sitting around the office playing paper football.

This is just stupid. The possibilities that I see at this point are: 1. they have not completed their off season plan yet, 2. they were unable to implement their off season plan, or 3. they formulated a poor off season plan.

 

I am hoping that #1 is correct, because 2 and 3 give us little hope for the upcoming season. I don't see any other possibilities, because they have done very little to improve our current starting pitching and nothing to improve our future starting pitching. Starting pitching is this teams biggest need.

[BSN07]

How do you know its an off season plan and not a 3 or 5 year plan? Your inability to look beyond any one season is astounding.

 

Their rotation is full, who exactly are you getting rid of and how and for what?

[a700hitter]

How do you know its an off season plan and not a 3 or 5 year plan? Your inability to look beyond any one season is astounding.

 

Their rotation is full, who exactly are you getting rid of and how and for what?

Every team has an off season plan. Your inability to understand that is astounding. That doesn't preclude it from being part of a 3 or 5 year plan. Are you in business? Have you ever seen your Company's financial plan and it's goals? Businesses have annual and even quarterly objectives which fit with long term goals. It sounds like you need some business training from iortiz. He's very proficient with that stuff.

[a700hitter]

How do you know its an off season plan and not a 3 or 5 year plan? Your inability to look beyond any one season is astounding.

 

Their rotation is full, who exactly are you getting rid of and how and for what?

And I am not at all proposing a short term approach. What I am saying, and I'll spell it out very clearly for you is that this off season they have made only 1 move to improve the starting pitching in the near term and none to improve the future of our pitching. Doing nothing in an entire off season to address future needs is not the best way to meet your long term goals. Long term goals don't get addressed at the end of 3 or 5 years. They get addressed throughout the period. You don't take a year off. That's not the best way to achieve the long term objective.

[BSN07]

And I am not at all proposing a short term approach. What I am saying, and I'll spell it out very clearly for you is that this off season they have made only 1 move to improve the starting pitching in the near term and none to improve the future of our pitching. Doing nothing in an entire off season to address future needs is not the best way to meet your long term goals. Long term goals don't get addressed at the end of 3 or 5 years. They get addressed throughout the period. You don't take a year off. That's not the best way to achieve the long term objective.

 

Actually it does address the future. By passing on Grienke, Sanchez and Jackson they have not blocked future pieces(they believe these players have a shot to make it, you don't I know).

 

They also kept the future salary space they are going to have in 3 seasons(every current big money contract will have expired). They young core that the team is building will be at the beginning of it's run and they will have all the $ they want to finish off the product. The current team is built to keep fans like you civil. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. What I mean is fans who invest a large portion of their discretionary income(season ticket holders, group package types). With their ticket prices they can't go into full rebuild mode unless the lowered prices and thats not happening. So instead they build a short term team for the next 2-3 years and look for their next group of prospects to become the core.

 

I don't know if you just don't get it or don't want to get it. If you step back and look at it without a "WS or bust this season" glasses, it seems very plausible that this could be in some manor the plan of the current FO in building a contender. If it works great, if it doesn't the will find a new group with a new direction and approach.

 

What we can't do is look at what the old group did and expect the current group to do the same just because they worked together. Barnes, Hoyer, Cherries all have a base that is similar but each has his own style and way of going about roster construction. I also see Lucchino having less pull then he has recently(thank God). The Valentine and Crawford catastrophes I think have cost him a bit of power. Thus another reason added to why the team has been less risk taking this off season.

[Dojji]

We were discussing what they did this off season.

 

And this is exactly what BSN07 is talking about. The fact that you can't grasp his point IS his point.

[a700hitter]

Actually it does address the future. By passing on Grienke, Sanchez and Jackson they have not blocked future pieces(they believe these players have a shot to make it, you don't I know).

 

They also kept the future salary space they are going to have in 3 seasons(every current big money contract will have expired). They young core that the team is building will be at the beginning of it's run and they will have all the $ they want to finish off the product. The current team is built to keep fans like you civil. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. What I mean is fans who invest a large portion of their discretionary income(season ticket holders, group package types). With their ticket prices they can't go into full rebuild mode unless the lowered prices and thats not happening. So instead they build a short term team for the next 2-3 years and look for their next group of prospects to become the core.

 

I don't know if you just don't get it or don't want to get it. If you step back and look at it without a "WS or bust this season" glasses, it seems very plausible that this could be in some manor the plan of the current FO in building a contender. If it works great, if it doesn't the will find a new group with a new direction and approach.

 

What we can't do is look at what the old group did and expect the current group to do the same just because they worked together. Barnes, Hoyer, Cherries all have a base that is similar but each has his own style and way of going about roster construction. I also see Lucchino having less pull then he has recently(thank God). The Valentine and Crawford catastrophes I think have cost him a bit of power. Thus another reason added to why the team has been less risk taking this off season.

I am sorry, but in my business, not doing anything is not making progress toward a long term plan. Saying that not going for Greinke, Hamilton et. al. is an implementation of their plan for the future is a stretch. I wish that I could sell that to my boss-- that my doing nothing was progress, because at least I didn't make any stupid moves. They didn't blow up Fenway either. Was that also part of their implementation of their long term plans?

[a700hitter]

And this is exactly what BSN07 is talking about. The fact that you can't grasp his point IS his point.

You really can't grasp anything today. In fact for the last couple of day, I hope that you understand yourself.