Report: Gonzo, Sox blast Bobby V to Owners

[Bellhorn04]

The thing about Pedroia is, when he made the comments about 'that's not how we do things here', Cherington should have talked to him and asked him to apologize, but it didn't happen. That's mismanagement, an inability to put out fires. Pedroia does have that chip-on-the-shoulder attitude but no one can question his day-in day-out effort. I still look at him as a good guy to have on a team.

[a700hitter]

Actually I misspoke earlier...Beckett and Lester are not the worst examples of the Sox starting pitching this year....Bard is. He did not get through half the season before falling apart.....and the answer for Bard was who...dice...Cook...please...or was is Morales coming in to save the day....or is it rookie Felix currently resting as you might expect for any rookie not accustomed to innings. The Sox had no plan at all for starting pitching this year and can thank their lucky stars that Buch has pulled it together. Laying this mess of a rotation and this mess of a season entirely at the feet of Beckett and Lester is laughable. For his part Lester has left 8 games this year not involved in the decision. Who lost those games....the ghost of Lester?

Bard's game was falling apart in Spring Training.

[Spitball]

This is an interesting article from 1940:

 

http://www.chatterfromthedugout.com/cleveland_crybabies.htm

[mvp 78]

BV was the wrong choice. There seems to be too many chiefs and not enough Guardians in the FO. The players are whiney bitches (yes, that includes Pedey).

 

Not sure this is much of a surprise.

 

This will be the most important offseason in a long while. If the FO kicks the can down the road again, it'll be much easier to get tickets from the box office next year.

[jung]

I said it so many times early in the year it was coming out my ears....this team did Pedey no favors looking to him for the kind of leadership that is more vocal and more visible off the field...your wisecracking spark plug guy rarely makes for the guy you want to step forward into the kleg lights to speak for the team. Based on Pedey's time with us you would guess he would open mouth and insert foot caught like he was under the circumstances of the youk discussion.

 

Make no mistake about it...I don't give a s*** what V was doing in his role as manager. He had the job and presuming management did not rein him in before that...that is on management not on V. We do have some evidence that V would have toned down his act if management had set that as an expectation for him as he surely toned down his act as soon as management left him to twist in the wind.

 

Management should not have hired V....hiring him they should have either let him be or set expectations for him...Pedey should have not have opened his big mouth because he set himself up as the spokesman for the organization...not just the team with his "we don't" comment and finally, while on the one hand it was a tough spot for V to be in, if I were him I would have gone to management and said f*** you....you hired me to do a job....you did not qualify that job nor set expectations outside of me doing the job as I saw fit and you end up cutting the legs out from under me! I want to know what the expectation is and as long as I don't step out beyond them I need you guys to support me. If you can't do that...go f*** yourselves.

[SCM33]

This will be the most important offseason in a long while. If the FO kicks the can down the road again' date=' it'll be much easier to get tickets from the box office next year.[/quote']

 

Last offseason was pretty important....they dont care, people are still buying their s***.

 

You can get last minute tickets online for $2.00 at gametime.......if thats not easy, then I dont know what is.

[mvp 78]

Last offseason was pretty important....they dont care, people are still buying their s***.

 

You can get last minute tickets online for $2.00 at gametime.......if thats not easy, then I dont know what is.

Last season's team was a game out of the playoffs. Theoretically, only a few tweaks would have put them over the top. Now, they need a complete overhaul.

 

I was talking about the decreased demand at the beginning of the season leading to tickets being available at the box office the day of a game. This would hit ownership in the wallets.

[jacksonianmarch]

Last season's team was a game out of the playoffs. Theoretically, only a few tweaks would have put them over the top. Now, they need a complete overhaul.

 

I was talking about the decreased demand at the beginning of the season leading to tickets being available at the box office the day of a game. This would hit ownership in the wallets.

 

They were one game out, but their flaws were on national level of display in September. They seemed to need a declaration of which team they were, though. Were they the team that dominated from May through August or were they the bumbling team of April and September. As it turns out, they were the latter. Now, they need an overhaul. The problem is, they are up against the cap and looking at big money to some of their arb players. And some of that big money is coming off the books in the name of a guy who is leading your team in everything offensively in Ortiz. They really need to hope a guy like Garza falls into their lap.

[SoxSport]

The media doesn't have much credibility about this meeting. Obviously, their "source" is an enemy of Valentine and the details may have been exagerrated. Once the media sees blood, they attack like sharks, and the Red Sox are bloody. It may be the front office is the source, since their policy all year has been, it appears, to deliberately undermine Valentine.

 

True, Valentine has a big mouth and has been too honest with the media about some of his players. But the public "defense" of Valentine, with Cherington, Lucchino and Henry as a "team", was pretty sickening, and tells you a lot about the Red Sox. Valentine is stupid not to resign immediately. Lucchino dealt him a bad hand. He should walk away from the manure pile.

[Bellhorn04]

The media doesn't have much credibility about this meeting. Obviously, their "source" is an enemy of Valentine and the details may have been exagerrated. Once the media sees blood, they attack like sharks, and the Red Sox are bloody. It may be the front office is the source, since their policy all year has been, it appears, to deliberately undermine Valentine.

 

True, Valentine has a big mouth and has been too honest with the media about some of his players. But the public "defense" of Valentine, with Cherington, Lucchino and Henry as a "team", was pretty sickening, and tells you a lot about the Red Sox. Valentine is stupid not to resign immediately. Lucchino dealt him a bad hand. He should walk away from the manure pile.

 

If he walks away he looks like a quitter and a pussy doesn't he? If he has any aspirations of managing again I can't see how that helps his cause.

[Orange Juiced]

Bard's game was falling apart in Spring Training.

 

Through four games he had the following numbers:

 

2-2, 3.72 era, 1.45 whip, 8.8 k/9

 

The last start in that four-game stretch was this, against the White Sox:

 

7.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 2 er, 1 bb, 6 k

 

That's not indicative of a guy who was falling apart. That's indicative of a guy who is starting to click as a starting pitcher. Why he *then* fell apart I don't know. He ultimately fell off a cliff in his last start on June 3, but even in his two starts prior to that, he wasn't too bad:

 

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 4 bb, 2 k, W

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 2 bb, 4 k, W

TOT: 10.2 ip, 10 h, 4 r, 4 er, 6 bb, 6 k, 3.38 era, 1.49 whip, 5.1 k/9

 

Not great, but again, not terrible. That's a useful starting pitcher - certainly better than most of the slop they have going these days. After that he had just a horrific outing, however, and that seemed to do him in completely.

 

In the 9 games between his awful first start and his horrific last start, he put up this line:

 

48.1 ip, 43 h, 23 r, 22 er, 30 bb, 26 k, 4.10 era, 1.51 whip, 4.8 k/9

 

The big concern is the whip and the k/9, but a 4.10 era would be the best among all Red Sox starters this year. So could they use a guy putting up those numbers? Absolutely.

 

Again, he wasn't great this year at all....far from it. But he did do some pretty solid things and wasn't falling off a cliff. At least you would never have thought that after four games. He seemed to really have found something there.

[SoxSport]

If he walks away he looks like a quitter and a pussy doesn't he? If he has any aspirations of managing again I can't see how that helps his cause.

 

I don't know. I think he's gets a free ride on his Red Sox experience. Everybody knows their problems are above him. His only problem is he has a big mouth with the media--too frank about his players. You can't do that these days.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't know. I think he's gets a free ride on his Red Sox experience. Everybody knows their problems are above him. His only problem is he has a big mouth with the media--too frank about his players. You can't do that these days.

 

Plus he came into this year with no MLB job in the last 10 years.

[jung]

V won't have to walk away. I don't think there is a snowballs chance in hell that V is here next year. He will get through the season because there is NO rational for management to appear to give the players what they appear to want.

 

Look while Tito was very vocal about no longer being able to get the players to respond to him or for him, the players have done nothing for V either..that by itself spells death for the manager.

 

I think there is little doubt that this latest meeting came as a result of some sort of communication from the players to upper management....again. Does not matter whether the players specifically pointed to V in wanting the meeting or not. While they could have danced around the topic in communicating their desire for a meeting....I don't think there is much of a chance that they discussed much else in such a meeting.....c'mon...a mid-season meeting that includes the FO and upper management but does not include the manager is about some other topic than the manager...how thick are those blinders?

[a700hitter]

Through four games he had the following numbers:

 

2-2, 3.72 era, 1.45 whip, 8.8 k/9

 

The last start in that four-game stretch was this, against the White Sox:

 

7.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 2 er, 1 bb, 6 k

 

That's not indicative of a guy who was falling apart. That's indicative of a guy who is starting to click as a starting pitcher. Why he *then* fell apart I don't know. He ultimately fell off a cliff in his last start on June 3, but even in his two starts prior to that, he wasn't too bad:

 

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 4 bb, 2 k, W

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 2 bb, 4 k, W

TOT: 10.2 ip, 10 h, 4 r, 4 er, 6 bb, 6 k, 3.38 era, 1.49 whip, 5.1 k/9

 

Not great, but again, not terrible. That's a useful starting pitcher - certainly better than most of the slop they have going these days. After that he had just a horrific outing, however, and that seemed to do him in completely.

 

In the 9 games between his awful first start and his horrific last start, he put up this line:

 

48.1 ip, 43 h, 23 r, 22 er, 30 bb, 26 k, 4.10 era, 1.51 whip, 4.8 k/9

 

The big concern is the whip and the k/9, but a 4.10 era would be the best among all Red Sox starters this year. So could they use a guy putting up those numbers? Absolutely.

 

Again, he wasn't great this year at all....far from it. But he did do some pretty solid things and wasn't falling off a cliff. At least you would never have thought that after four games. He seemed to really have found something there.

Yeah, he looked so great during Spring training that half way through Spring Training his manager had to ask him if he was up to being a starter, and Bard himself admitted to having trouble with the focus needed to be a starter. It was pretty obvious that he would lose focus in his new role and he had trouble finding the plate and regaining his composure. Yeah, let's drop the terrible starts and he was okay. Are you serious? I go to Spring Training. I was at one of the games where his wheels came off and he threw something like 10 balls in a row and walked something like 4 guys in the inning. He was not progressing during Spring Training. He had a 6.57 ERA in Spring Training and he walked 16 batters in 24 innings, and in his first outing he pitched 2 clean innings. That's almost 6 per 9 innings. That's a really bad sign.

[SCM33]

Through four games he had the following numbers:

 

2-2, 3.72 era, 1.45 whip, 8.8 k/9

 

The last start in that four-game stretch was this, against the White Sox:

 

7.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 2 er, 1 bb, 6 k

 

That's not indicative of a guy who was falling apart. That's indicative of a guy who is starting to click as a starting pitcher. Why he *then* fell apart I don't know. He ultimately fell off a cliff in his last start on June 3, but even in his two starts prior to that, he wasn't too bad:

 

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 4 bb, 2 k, W

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 2 bb, 4 k, W

TOT: 10.2 ip, 10 h, 4 r, 4 er, 6 bb, 6 k, 3.38 era, 1.49 whip, 5.1 k/9

 

Not great, but again, not terrible. That's a useful starting pitcher - certainly better than most of the slop they have going these days. After that he had just a horrific outing, however, and that seemed to do him in completely.

 

In the 9 games between his awful first start and his horrific last start, he put up this line:

 

48.1 ip, 43 h, 23 r, 22 er, 30 bb, 26 k, 4.10 era, 1.51 whip, 4.8 k/9

 

The big concern is the whip and the k/9, but a 4.10 era would be the best among all Red Sox starters this year. So could they use a guy putting up those numbers? Absolutely.

 

Again, he wasn't great this year at all....far from it. But he did do some pretty solid things and wasn't falling off a cliff. At least you would never have thought that after four games. He seemed to really have found something there.

 

You dont actually still think he is a SP do you?

 

We will be lucky if he gets back to the level he was at prior to the disaster.

[a700hitter]

Through four games he had the following numbers:

 

2-2, 3.72 era, 1.45 whip, 8.8 k/9

 

The last start in that four-game stretch was this, against the White Sox:

 

7.0 ip, 6 h, 3 r, 2 er, 1 bb, 6 k

 

That's not indicative of a guy who was falling apart. That's indicative of a guy who is starting to click as a starting pitcher. Why he *then* fell apart I don't know. He ultimately fell off a cliff in his last start on June 3, but even in his two starts prior to that, he wasn't too bad:

 

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 4 bb, 2 k, W

5.1 ip, 5 h, 2 r, 2 er, 2 bb, 4 k, W

TOT: 10.2 ip, 10 h, 4 r, 4 er, 6 bb, 6 k, 3.38 era, 1.49 whip, 5.1 k/9

 

Not great, but again, not terrible. That's a useful starting pitcher - certainly better than most of the slop they have going these days. After that he had just a horrific outing, however, and that seemed to do him in completely.

 

In the 9 games between his awful first start and his horrific last start, he put up this line:

 

48.1 ip, 43 h, 23 r, 22 er, 30 bb, 26 k, 4.10 era, 1.51 whip, 4.8 k/9

 

The big concern is the whip and the k/9, but a 4.10 era would be the best among all Red Sox starters this year. So could they use a guy putting up those numbers? Absolutely.

 

Again, he wasn't great this year at all....far from it. But he did do some pretty solid things and wasn't falling off a cliff. At least you would never have thought that after four games. He seemed to really have found something there.

^ This is really some pointless research. He imploded. They gave him sufficient chances to show progress. For every baby step he took forward, he took two giant steps backward. His career is in tatters. The guy is praying to get back to the majors as any sort of reliever. He'll never ask for the chance to start ever again.

[3rdManOut]

I agree about the starting position but you dont think that he could get back to where he was as a reliever? As a reliever he wasnt the best but he wasn't really the worst either. I wouldn't mind seeing him back to where he was before. Not sure who is to really blame for idea of him becoming a starter but yeah that was a f***ing disaster.

[a700hitter]

I agree about the starting position but you dont think that he could get back to where he was as a reliever? As a reliever he wasnt the best but he wasn't really the worst either. I wouldn't mind seeing him back to where he was before. Not sure who is to really blame for idea of him becoming a starter but yeah that was a f***ing disaster.

He was a good late inning guy IMO. If he was back to that form, he'd be with the big club. He has been floundering in AAA. His ERA is 7.16 in 27.2 inn at Pawtucket and just tonight he walked 4 guys in 1/3 of an inning. He's most probably ruined.

[a700hitter]

He was a good late inning guy IMO. If he was back to that form' date=' he'd be with the big club. He has been floundering in AAA. His ERA is 7.16 in 27.2 inn at Pawtucket and just tonight he walked 4 guys in 1/3 of an inning. He's most probably ruined.[/quote']But just to clarify, if you didn't count the first or third pitches in each of those ABs, he would have walked nobody.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Apparently Pedroia after the game said he doesn't want him fired. This team better be performing like s*** to get Bobby V outta town cause watching them play is stressful.

[jung]

I think it is a 50-50 shot that he makes it back because his entire career has been a 50-50 shot. He has had periods of utter failure followed by flashes of brilliance. People keep trying to get him to some level of consistency because he has stuff or had it.

 

The latest episode of obsessing over him is mainly founded in the idea that the Sox were (with emphasis on the were) grooming him to be a closer. What people forget is that in this story of chicken and egg the egg was the Sox giving up on him as closer. The chicken was deciding to try to develop him as a starter.

 

He may or may not make it back as some sort of relief pitcher. I believe closing is out and starting is out. I think we should be making less out of this "we ruined Bard" stuff regardless of the fact that trying to develop him as a starter was a colossal failure and simply deal with the idea that he is very likely one of God only knows how many pitchers with stuff and no control or consistency that never makes it. It happens....a lot in fact.

 

The management of this organization has been pretty pathetic of late I know but I am not sure that this player is more than he ever has been and may well be less than we tend to think he is.

[Dojji]

You dont actually still think he is a SP do you?

 

We will be lucky if he gets back to the level he was at prior to the disaster.

 

You last September? Absolutely.

 

They let Bard start because he was already damaged goods and why the heck not try it and see. I honestly think the kid is done.

[Beecke]

This team is so unlikeable. But it ultimately comes down to the management and the Front Office.

 

Never in a million years should your players be allowed to go over the coaches head in that way, especially when they are playing like s***. And then complaining about Lester having to do his job despite sucking, f*** me.

 

A healthy organisation would not let this happen, at least not in this way. If the players are unhappy with something it should be clear who is the boss, and that ultimately only management decides and if the players don?t like it they can go f*** themselves, after all they get paid handsomely here while underachieving for the most part.

 

But the 2012 Red Sox certainly have no leadership on any level, not on the park, not in the dugout and least of all in the Front Office. How it can come to the point that the players are allowed to publicly call their coach out, to complain about the coach behind his back to his superiors is beyond me. Either management backs BV, after all they chose him, then they can listen to the players pulling that kind of stuff but make it very clear that BV is the boss and this season we are all doing it his way. Why else would you appoint him? If that however isn?t the case and they don?t back BV then by god just sack him already. Why give these prima donnas another excuse for their poor performances? I don?t believe for a second that BV is one of the important reasons for this team being sub .500.

 

It?s straight up unbelievable how this organization is being run right now. No leadership whatsoever and the lunatics are allowed to run the asylum.

 

I also hate how Cherrington is able to confirm this meeting without even uttering 3 words to support BV. A total clusterf***. Good organizations are not going about business this way IMO (at least I can?t see it.)

[Orange Juiced]

^ This is really some pointless research. He imploded. They gave him sufficient chances to show progress. For every baby step he took forward' date=' he took two giant steps backward. His career is in tatters. The guy is praying to get back to the majors as any sort of reliever. He'll never ask for the chance to start ever again.[/quote']

 

Now you're moving the goalposts. The statement I responded to was yours that said he was falling apart in spring training. So I gave you his actual regular season game numbers for the regular season. Through four games, it sure didn't look like he was falling apart. He looked like a pitcher who was about to grow into a pretty nice MLB starter.

 

If the point you're making now is that he is a mess, you will get no disagreement from me. It turns out (as I have said in another thread) that moving him to starter was a huge, huge mistake, and I'm not sure they'll ever get him back on track. But you wouldn't have known that through four games in the regular season.

[Thunder]

I'm loving this. The fact that the players hate him is awesome. It might talk some sense into the owners.

[a700hitter]

Now you're moving the goalposts. The statement I responded to was yours that said he was falling apart in spring training. So I gave you his actual regular season game numbers for the regular season. Through four games, it sure didn't look like he was falling apart. He looked like a pitcher who was about to grow into a pretty nice MLB starter.

 

If the point you're making now is that he is a mess, you will get no disagreement from me. It turns out (as I have said in another thread) that moving him to starter was a huge, huge mistake, and I'm not sure they'll ever get him back on track. But you wouldn't have known that through four games in the regular season.

The signs were there in Spring Training as I exlained. He would lose focua and become unglued. The manager asked him if he wanted to continue as a starter, because he saw the signs. He was throwing Bard a lifeline, but the kid was too stupid to realize it. Bobby V was the last manager to name his starting rotation, and that had to center around his concerns over Bard, because Doubront had earned the spot with more than a week to go. He was walking 6 per 9 innings with a 6.57 ERA. The signs were there. I was witness to one of his meltdowns. Four cherry picked starts during the regular season mean nothing. They should have pulled the plug on the experiment the minute that Bailey went down. That was the excuse they needed to sell it to Bard, the press and the fans.

[YAZMAN]

They should have pulled the plug on the experiment the minute that Bailey went down. That was the excuse they needed to sell it to Bard' date=' the press and the fans.[/quote']

 

It was a fool's errand from the start.

[Elktonnick]

It was a fool's errand from the start.

 

The entire Bard fiasco is further evidence that Cherrington is incompetent. If anyone should be fired it should be Cherrington.

[a700hitter]

The entire Bard fiasco is further evidence that Cherrington is incompetent. If anyone should be fired it should be Cherrington.

The FO needs to start searching for his replacement ASAP so the guy can hit the ground running.