Report: Gonzo, Sox blast Bobby V to Owners

[a700hitter]

Ultimately, as we all know, this season is on the players and they have admitted it.

 

The hiring of Bobby V was a huge mistake though. He's a dolt and he runs his mouth too much. There was a reason he was out of the major leagues for so long. Thanks Lucchino.

 

I love the Red Sox but it's almost more embarassing to be a Red Sox fan now than prior to 2004. Who would have thought that? I'm still watching all of the games, we all know how hard that's become.

You have disliked Bobby V before he became the Sox manager. I don't like him either, but players don't need to like their managers in order for a team to succeed. The Yankee dynasty teams of the 50's were not big fans of Casey Stengel. Other than a small handful of players, Stengel was pretty much despised by his players during those years. Stengel was one of the first managers to implement a lefty-righty platoon system. The players hated it, because they wanted to play everyday. The handful that played everyday may not have hated him, but they thought he was a clown and a buffoon and they disdained him. Mantle never listened to nor obeyed any of Stengels rules. The guy was almost entirely incoherent when he spoke. Yet, the Yankees won. Baseball is full of examples of winning teams that despised their managers. The opposite is really the exception. The Red Sox had a likable manager and in the end they had disdain for him. He could no longer reach them.

 

This years performance has almost nothing to do with Bobby V. He has been pretty much of a boy scout. He's carried the FO water from day 1. He knows that his pitching sucks, but he never says a negative word about the staff. He has no big shut down hammers to go to at the end of games to lock down games, but he has not complained.

 

Bobby V made one remark about Youk-- a calculated effort to let players know that there were no sacred cows. He picked on a player who was declining in skill with a replacement waiting in the wings. That was the time for the FO to stand behind the man they had hired. Instead they let Pedroia take back the clubhouse for the players and the FO helped to castrate Bobby V. After that, no culture change in the clubhouse was possible unless the players imposed it themselves.

 

Since the Youk incident Bobby V has been charged with the following high crimes and misdemeanors:

 

1. Mentioning to the press that Shoppach asked him about playing time. Oh my, what a breach of confidence! A player wanting playing time really puts the guy in a terrible light. The truth is that Bobby V never liked Shop and probably wanted to get rid of him and bring up Lavarnway. Unfortunately, the castrated manager had no control over his roster.

 

2. He mentioned that Buchholz asked for an extra day off. If the guy felt fatigued and that he thought he needed an extra day to perform well, where is the controversy here? Buch didn't like answering some questions? Too bad.

 

3. Disclosing to the press that Crawford had some soreness in his wrist. How this is a controversy is beyond me.

 

These guys didn't play for a manager they liked and they are not playing for Bobby V either. The achilles heel of the team has been the horrendous pitching. Losing reveals a lot about the character of people. Bobby V has actually been more gracious loser than I had expected. The players, on the other hand, have revealed themselves as selfish, entitled, thin-skinned prima donas. I can't think of any of our so-called stars that has been a stand up guy throughout this misery. There isn't a single leader among them. Papi comes the closest, but he has lost his way with his bitching and moaning about his 1 year $15.5 million contract. Boo hoo for him. They all need to look in the mirror and grow up and start acting like adults.

[jacksonianmarch]

SO MEDIA blowing the s*** again out of nothing.. just like I predicted.. fuking NY media

 

Bobby V on WEEI tried not to fan the flames, but he definitely didnt toe the company line. He agreed that he was brought in to change the culture and he agreed that he was being neutered in doing so (which was pretty funny that he agreed to that when the question was 'Do you think you are being neutered in your capacity to change the culture in Boston'). He acknowledged that the meeting took place, but the owners talked to him first then had him leave, then talked to the players. He also said something about some of the players not liking the media attention in Boston, not like that is changing. And when asked if he liked the way his relationship with the owners and management group, he said it could use some "fine tuning." Ordway was trying to goat him into saying more by playing the good cop, but he wouldnt go any further. They did have a good point. Why is V going through this? He's going down, the writing is on the wall, this isnt working. He's on his last baseball gig, he might as well speak his mind and protect his legacy

[Youk Of The Nation]

Valentine never did enough in baseball to have a 'legacy'. It's not like he's Torre or Stengel or LaRussa or hell, even Pinella. He's just Bobby Valentine, and he was never a big enough name, a strong enough personality to be the manager for a team like the Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

"There is a disconnect in communication between the players and upper management," said Mets catcher Kelly Shoppach to Andy Martino of The New York Daily News about his former team, the Red Sox

 

From a guy just jettisoned off the island

[Youk Of The Nation]

The only disconnect I see is between Kelly Shoppach's eyeballs and his brain. If anything, the players and upper management are controlling everything and middle management (Valentine) are the ones being left out of everything.

[jung]

Regardless of what they are controlling it sounds more like what Shop is saying is that upper management and the players don't see eye to eye. While I agree that those two groups control this team with little left for the guys in the middle to do....that they both control this team AND don't agree is even worse, an uglier can of worms than those two groups controlling and agreeing.

 

In point of fact neither group knows anything about running a baseball team nor would you think they would. That much should be clear by now. The guys in the middle are generally the guys with some baseball sense....some idea about running a baseball team. Needless to say, the guys in the middle at Fenway are't much to write home about either.

 

It really does not matter....hiring V was a huge mistake only trumped by hiring him and then castrating him....the organizational hole the Sox have dug for themselves is now deeper than it has ever been.

[Bellhorn04]

More and more it looks to me like the man lurking in the background, Lucchino, is the true architect of this road to ruin.

[SoxSport]

Bobby V on WEEI tried not to fan the flames' date=' but he definitely didnt toe the company line. He agreed that he was brought in to change the culture and he agreed that he was being neutered in doing so (which was pretty funny that he agreed to that when the question was 'Do you think you are being neutered in your capacity to change the culture in Boston'). He acknowledged that the meeting took place, but the owners talked to him first then had him leave, then talked to the players. He also said something about some of the players not liking the media attention in Boston, not like that is changing. And when asked if he liked the way his relationship with the owners and management group, he said it could use some "fine tuning." Ordway was trying to goat him into saying more by playing the good cop, but he wouldnt go any further. They did have a good point. Why is V going through this? He's going down, the writing is on the wall, this isnt working. He's on his last baseball gig, he might as well speak his mind and protect his legacy[/quote']

 

The neutering was not done by the players--it was done by his bosses, including Cherington.

 

If the players want less media attention, they should not underachieve.

[Elktonnick]

More and more it looks to me like the man lurking in the background' date=' Lucchino, is the true architect of this road to ruin.[/quote']

 

Yes Beckett and Lester had nothing to do with it.

[SoxSport]

The people who put this team together are not getting any blame. Instead, they are deflecting the blame on the manager by putting him in the spotlight.

 

Lucchino should be the media target. Put some heat on that guy.

[Emmz]

The architect is the one who runs it. The players are absolutely to blame, especially Beckett and Lester, plus underperforming by others offensively, but LL definitely seems to be the most responsible in the FO.

[Elktonnick]

The architect is the one who runs it. The players are absolutely to blame' date=' especially Beckett and Lester, plus underperforming by others offensively, but LL definitely seems to be the most responsible in the FO.[/quote']

 

Lucchino is an employee. The buck stops at the top ie. John Henry. I do not believe John Henry has been totally truthful when he says LL runs the Red Sox. From what I see JH likes to hear from different voices. I don't think he has totally empowered either Lucchino ror Cherrington. I see John Henry as someone who playes his executives off against one another as a way to maintain control.

[Emmz]

JH doesn't seem very involved, and LL always seems to get his way.

[Elktonnick]

JH doesn't seem very involved' date=' and LL always seems to get his way.[/quote']

 

With today's telecommunications JH can be on the other side of the planet and still control things. He may not be as visible or as available to the press but I doubt he has fully delegated that much control to any one person including Lucchino.

[mvp 78]

The top is LL, not JH.

 

JH: "Larry Lucchino runs the RedSox."

[Emmz]

With today's telecommunications JH can be on the other side of the planet and still control things. He may not be as visible or as available to the press but I doubt he has fully delegated that much control to any one person including Lucchino.

 

Owners are interested in money. As long as LL is making bank for him, JH probably doesn't really give a s***.

[Elktonnick]

Owners are interested in money. As long as LL is making bank for him' date=' JH probably doesn't really give a s***.[/quote']

 

JH didn' amass a fortune his size by not giving a s***. Just look at his track record and how he runs all his businesses. But hey if you want to believe what you believe be my guest

[Emmz]

They give a s*** in the sense that they hire the right people to make them money. That's why they hire people. To do the work for them, it's not a difficult concept. When I go to work, the owners don't even have a hand in the business, aside from dropping off checks and the occasional drop-ins, unless business is effected.

 

Lucchino has gotten his way with everything basically, and I see no evidence suggesting JH is the one most in charge. Maybe in terms of actual authority, but he doesn't make the decisions, he hires people to do that for him.

[Elktonnick]

They give a s*** in the sense that they hire the right people to make them money. That's why they hire people. To do the work for them, it's not a difficult concept. When I go to work, the owners don't even have a hand in the business, aside from dropping off checks and the occasional drop-ins, unless business is effected.

 

Lucchino has gotten his way with everything basically, and I see no evidence suggesting JH is the one most in charge. Maybe in terms of actual authority, but he doesn't make the decisions, he hires people to do that for him.

 

JH likes different voices. There is work and there are policy decisions and personnel decisions. I think in terms of organizational policy and major personnel decisions that Lucchino is not the final word. It was the three who hired BV and vetoed Cherries choice for example. JH has embraced data driven decisionmaking and consensus management style. That is how this organization is run and that is what is broken and become dysfunctional.

[SCM33]

The top is LL, not JH.

 

JH: "Larry Lucchino runs the RedSox."

 

Yes.

 

I will never forget where I was when I heard that interview.......not to compare it in any way, but I get the same flashback about 9/11. I know exactly where I was and what I was doing.

 

That interview was when I really started to understand how f***ed this franchise was........

[jung]

So now I gotta wake up to this crap? We can't even have a single day of relative happiness as in....Lester actually has a decent start....Lavs maybe does look like the catcher of their future (at least behind the plate) and we get a win over the yanks but No.....

 

Apparently, Agons who I guess needs some sort of caretaker now says that he did text ownership from his phone or I should say that AGons now claims that Shop crafted a text that included the list of player complaints and concerns and that Shop then went on to text it from Agons phone.....but that he Agons never read the text before it went out! As the story goes, a group of players had been grumbling about V all season long and while Agons was not active in the group it appears that he offered the services of his phone since a text from a prominent player to ownership would have more impact than a text from the backup catcher's phone. He then goes on to claim that he did not review the contents of the text before the send button was hit.

 

Have you folks heard this crap this morning? What the f*** is wrong with these guys? Yes, no doubt the ability to hit a baseball does not imply much going on between the ears but are they really this stupid? You want me to believe that you let somebody text a message to your bosses, the owners of the team, but you are now going to deny the contents of that text? Well either you were disingenuous in allowing somebody to use your phone that way in that you were implying to your bosses that these were your sentiments without knowing what was even in the text or you are disingenuous now in attempting to distance yourself from those sentiments. Take you pick which kind of disingenuous you want to be...stupid and disingenuous or just disingenuous.

 

So now we are back where we were...since nobody with a brain believed JH's story that he was the genesis for this meeting in NY to begin with nor did anybody with a brain believe that this was just one in a series of regular meetings held to discuss ways to improve the team. The genesis was the players and most specifically was a text from Agons phone (no wonder people thought him the ringleader). But that is still not enough. The children still cannot own up to themselves. Now while Agons admits the text came from his phone and that was the genesis of this whole ridiculous mess, he also claims he never read the text before it went out.

 

Double stupid on all fronts was the notion that this and likely more than this was not going to get out with more denials and more dumb-ass comments from the whole miserable tribe....management and players. All from a team struggling to nudge back to 500 and stay out of the basement.

[jung]

So now I gotta wake up to this crap? We can't even have a single day of relative happiness as in....Lester actually has a decent start....Lavs maybe does look like the catcher of their future (at least behind the plate) and we get a win over the yanks but No.....

 

Apparently, Agons who I guess needs some sort of caretaker now says that he did text ownership from his phone or I should say that AGons now claims that Shop crafted a text that included the list of player complaints and concerns and that Shop then went on to text it from Agons phone.....but that he Agons never read the text before it went out! As the story goes, a group of players had been grumbling about V all season long and while Agons was not active in the group it appears that he offered the services of his phone since a text from a prominent player to ownership would have more impact than a text from the backup catcher's phone. He then goes on to claim that he did not review the contents of the text before the send button was hit.

 

Have you folks heard this crap this morning? What the f*** is wrong with these guys? Yes, no doubt the ability to hit a baseball does not imply much going on between the ears but are they really this stupid? You want me to believe that you let somebody text a message to your bosses, the owners of the team, but you are now going to deny the contents of that text? Well either you were disingenuous in allowing somebody to use your phone that way in that you were implying to your bosses that these were your sentiments without knowing what was even in the text or you are disingenuous now in attempting to distance yourself from those sentiments. Take you pick which kind of disingenuous you want to be...stupid and disingenuous or just disingenuous.

 

So now we are back where we were...since nobody with a brain believed JH's story that he was the genesis for this meeting in NY to begin with nor did anybody with a brain believe that this was just one in a series of regular meetings held to discuss ways to improve the team. The genesis was the players and most specifically was a text from Agons phone (no wonder people thought him the ringleader). But that is still not enough. The children still cannot own up to themselves. Now while Agons admits the text came from his phone and that was the genesis of this whole ridiculous mess, he also claims he never read the text before it went out.

 

Double stupid on all fronts was the notion that this and likely more than this was not going to get out with more denials and more dumb-ass comments from the whole miserable tribe....management and players. All from a team struggling to nudge back to 500 and stay out of the basement.

[Behindenemylines]

I live behind enemy lines and the New York media is eating this sh__ up. The Daily News had several articles on team turmoil. Now the Sox hired Valentine because he was the anti-Tito. The media from day one said that he wouldn't last and their coverage is bias that way. They want Bobby-V gone so they can say we told you so. Based on what has gone on this year: He has not had the set daily line up all year, lost his closer in March, and the top two pitchers in rotation have been terrible most of the year. Add on top of that the stuff that has been leaked to the media. All teams have their clubhouse problems during the season, the only difference is that for most teams it doesn't end up in the papers. Now granted Bobby-V sometimes adds fuel to the fire by running his mouth. Now despite that the team is still around .500. The News also had an article that said Shoppach was behind the text. The bottom line is the New York media is laughing at the Nation right now. It makes living behind enemy lines pretty tough.

[jung]

I can just imagine...especially with something new out there almost every day. Next will be another Ortiz comment aimed at his desire for a long term deal....seems to me it is about time for that one to come up in the ******** rotation again.

[ibot2much]

This is like a Middle School altercation with everybody casting blame on the other people. Shoppach said he didn't write the text and wasn't even there, FO says there was no text...it was a regular meeting, AG says it was his phone but her never read the text and DP is all pissy and just will not talk to the media any more. Just puts on his ear buds and walks out of the locker room ( which is the best thing to come out of this). Just hit and don't talk.

[Elktonnick]

This is like a Middle School altercation with everybody casting blame on the other people. Shoppach said he didn't write the text and wasn't even there, FO says there was no text...it was a regular meeting, AG says it was his phone but her never read the text and DP is all pissy and just will not talk to the media any more. Just puts on his ear buds and walks out of the locker room ( which is the best thing to come out of this). Just hit and don't talk.

 

One thing that Sean McAdam noted was that Shoppach has a reputation apparently for clubhouse problems which may explain his frequent trades.

[Behindenemylines]

The stuff I'm reading is pointing the finger at Shoppach even though he is denying it (Daily News). If the stories are true about him being a problem in the club house then it might very well be him. Also, reading that McClure got fired. Its possible that a coach could be the snitch. It would make sence, FO is responsible for retaining some of these coaches maybe to keep an eye on Bobby and report back to them. It was strange that a veteran manager coming in was not allowed to pick all of his coaches. If some of the coaches he was stuck with, that where loyal to Tito, and don't like Bobby might be a pain in his ass. The starting pitching has been a problem, and McClure and Bobby weren't to well together.

[SoxSport]

Nobody really knows who did what here. It's like a political TV commercial where you never know what the truth is.

[jacksonianmarch]

Henry cares about making money and continuing to make money. But with nobody taking a dividend, my guess is that Henry has made little money off the sox (probably in terms of salary only) and will likely make the most money when they sell. If the sox continue to suck, lose their sellout streak and dont fill their seats, then the value of his business falls and his exit date gets pushed back. He will definitely care about that. If I were him, I would sell the sox immediately after their next playoff run