What's next for Daniel Bard?

[Station 13]

They haven't admitted it, but what a colossal failure it has been with him starting. They took an elite reliever that slam the door on rallies and made him a mediocre starter. Let's hope it hasn't damaged him beyond repair.

[Dojji]

If you blindly assume he'll be the Daniel Bard you remember the moment he gets to the pen, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. There's a reason they countenanced this move even when they had possible alternatives like Cook and Aceves. I think Dan Bard was considered damanged goods as a LIRP before he ever was pencilled in as a starter

[FredLynn]

Reliever reliever reliever. Everyone here except Dojji can see that this experiment has been an abject and utter failure. Dojji is right about Bard perhaps being ruined as a reliever as well; our incompetent FO has seen to that. The difference is that he has a chance to be a good reliever again. As a starter....well, what's Craig Hanson doing nowadays?

[Marty McFly]

Bullpen, but I really think he needs to spend a few weeks in Pawtucket to regain his confidence before he pitches any more meaningful innings in the majors.

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I was fine with trying to make Bard a starter. Part of that is, I don't buy into the 'elite set up man' concept that much. I believe there are elite closers but it seems Bard just didn't want to be a closer. In the history of baseball there have not been very many 'career elite setup men'. The setup position is very transient. Padilla and Miller have been doing well, Bailey is coming back etc. We've got a herd of relievers but the #5 spot in the rotation is still an X factor.

[kapsis21]

he doesnt have the mental attitude and toughness for a starter, he is good for 1 innings period. 3 outs is all i care from him and he was dominant. and he doesnt have to overthink the situation.. and was much better at it..

[jung]

I don't believe in the elite set up man either. I think the "elite set up" man is similar to the "dedicated DH" the latter of which is in sharp decline.

 

The elite set up man is a consequence of some teams ending up with an abundance of 1 inning pitching talent just like the dedicated DH is now the consequence of a few teams having a good enough hitter no longer really capable of filling a role in the field to justify having him always fill the DH spot.

 

Once players fitting the role of "elite set up man" were given that catchy moniker, they became something for some folks to admire and in some cases desire. However once you go down the road of defining it as such you are one or two steps away from paying for it as well. Seeking an elite set up man is about one step more foolish than paying a closer mid-8 figures over four years to pitch 60 odd innings a year.

 

I have come to believe that there is a back office at the MLB Player's Association headquarters totally dedicated to the task of cranking out these catchy monikers for player types that at other times would have been called things like "failed starting pitcher" as a means of cranking up salaries even more than they are today. Pretty soon we will have things like "elite middle reliever" and "super pinch hitter" and before you know it we will see postings from folks telling us that we are doomed to second tier status if we don't have an elite middle reliever or a super pinch hitter.

 

The whole thing is ridiculous. As far as pitching goes I think baseball organizations are catching on to the Nolan Ryan thing. It appears to me that across baseball, starting pitchers in general have begun this season with higher pitch count numbers than they have started with in recent seasons. It looks like starting pitchers for the most part has started their seasons this year with 100 pitch, pitch count numbers which would suggest that they will be above that number maybe by 15 or so pitches later in the season. Seems to me that 85-90 pitches was more the norm for early season starts in the past. Who knows....maybe if it is real and sustainable that will translate into a 0.25 or 0.50 increase in innings pitched per start for starting pitchers just this year which would go a long way to nipping this elite set up man stuff in the bud.

 

In fact I think higher pitch counts for starting pitchers should be a natural consequence of lower power numbers as we continue through the post steroid era. I don't see any 70 HR hitters looming out there on the immediate horizon. Josh Hamilton has 21 HR's through a 3rd of the season but accomplished that by hitting 2, 3 and 4 HR's on successive days against the Orioles in May. Next highest in the AL is 18. High in the NL is Beltran with 15 so far.

 

Does make me wonder how much the steroid era truly did screw up baseball not only as far as season and career stats go but even as far as defining roles for players like relief pitchers and starting pitchers. Obviously I am of the school of steroids having helped hitters much more than it did pitchers.

[VA Sox Fan]

I agree with a lot of Cafardo's points in this article.

 

Major issues land Bard in the minors

 

By Nick Cafardo

Globe Staff / June 6, 2012

 

If you read between the lines, there is not a lot of support for keeping Daniel Bard in the starting rotation, but the Red Sox will dance with that notion for a while, if only to keep Bard in the right frame of mind as he tries to fix the mess his delivery is in.

 

The Red Sox always thought the transition from reliever to starter would have its bumps, and it certainly has. But they didn’t expect anything like the wildness Bard exhibited against Toronto Sunday, when he walked six and hit two in less than two innings and had the Blue Jays afraid to step to the plate, for fear they might get seriously hurt.

 

That performance led to Sox to assign Bard to Pawtucket Tuesday.

 

While they considered moving him back to the bullpen, that was ruled out for a few reasons.

 

One, if Bard couldn’t throw strikes as a starter, why would that change out of the bullpen?

Second, the seven bullpen pitchers have been tremendous, so why disrupt that?

 

And third, anyone to be replaced in the pen would have to go on waivers, which risks losing a pitcher to another team.So it came down to a disabled list stint (you could argue a tired arm) or the minors.

 

It’s a little surprising that Bard is going to Pawtucket and not to Fort Myers, Fla., where he could work in relative privacy. Even at Pawtucket, he’s going to get fans and media watching him, and he probably needs to be away from any type of spotlight.

 

“I think he can start,’’ said pitching coach Bob McClure. “I might be one of the few that thinks that he can. But I really do.

 

“No. 1, he needs to keep it simple. He’s a power pitcher with two plus pitches and perhaps a third one. Anyone who can throw 100 pitches like he could with the ease he was doing it at one point definitely has the possibility of starting.’’

 

McClure believes Bard should get right back in the saddle but be limited to a few two-inning stints. Gee, wonder what that would be leading to?

 

“It might be better to pitch him every other day or two innings at a time, then two days off,’’ said McClure. “We need to find what’s best for him.’’

 

Manager Bobby Valentine said Bard had three checkpoints to reference when he goes out of whack, and that he has been trying to correct all at once rather than take one at a time.

 

One of the big concerns is velocity.

 

And no, the Red Sox did not want Bard to throw slower to preserve himself as a starter.

 

“That’s part of the mechanical mystery,’’ Valentine said. “There are times in the bullpen when he had everything in synch and cranked it up. Between the windups and the stretch and taking center stage, he gets out of that a little.Continued...

 

“That’s really one of the things he’ll be searching for - to nail down how to get a mechanic that when he wants to, he can add a little.’’

 

Asked if that is why Bard can’t economize pitches and get deeper into games, Valentine said, “I don’t want to overanalyze the whole thing. If he had a good mechanic and he’s throwing the way he can and the organization believes he can, pitching longer, getting more strikeouts, and pitching to contact will all come.’’

 

I asked Valentine if the organization told Bard how to transition from reliever to starter or whether Bard felt his way through it. He acknowledged that perhaps there were too many things floating in Bard’s head, that too many things were being said.

 

Bard referenced that after Sunday’s humiliating outing, first saying he was “partially to blame’’ for that, then amending it to “all to blame.’’

 

Valentine said Bard tried to talk him out of the demotion. Bard felt he could fix the problems on the fly, but the Red Sox did the right thing. This isn’t an also-ran team on which you can work things out during games. This is a team that can contend, and even though Bard is considered a fifth starter, fifth starters are important.

 

“Just felt the best thing for the organization and Daniel was get in an environment where he could just work on that mechanic and not have to worry about the big league record and his teammates,’’ said Valentine.

 

“I think it’ll be a quick turnaround. He had a real good frame of mind. Didn’t think it was necessary to really have an assignment. He thought he could kind of find it on the fly. We’re going to take the conservative route.’’

 

Bard is 5-6 with a 5.24 earned run average. He has walked 37 and hit eight over 55 innings, with only 34 strikeouts. He never looked like the dominant pitcher who could strike his way out of a jam. In fact, you could argue that his most impressive outing of the year was the one relief appearance he made, in Minnesota, when he worked out of a first-and-third, one-out jam.

 

“We’ll stay with the idea that he’s a starter and see how he develops,’’ Valentine said. “There’s a lot of building blocks, a lot of good things that have happened here that he can still build on. It seems like it’s just around the corner.’’

 

McClure said Bard needs to find his natural arm slot. Bard is better when he’s higher, and lately he has been dropping down too much.

 

“When he’s lower, it’s harder and not as accurate,’’ McClure said. “That’s why you saw the velocity down a little bit, too. He was kind of caught in between a little bit.’’

 

Asked if the workload of a starter had anything to do with the drop in velocity, Valentine said, “We’re looking at his pitches thrown. If a guy is going to go from pitching less, say, 60 innings to pitching 180 innings as a starter, that’s three times the workload and three times the pitches.

 

“He’s about 1,000 pitches, which is about a third of his workload, and he feels really good at this third juncture. So I don’t know how much it has to be monitored.’’

 

One thing is for sure. Bard is going to replaced in the rotation, likely by Daisuke Matsuzaka.

 

And if Matsuzaka pitches well, then there’s no room for Bard. And he has allowed that to happen.

 

Nick Cafardo can be reached at cafardo@globe.com. Follow him on Twitter @nickcafardo.

 

© Copyright 2012 Globe Newspaper Company.

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[Station 13]

 

 

Second, the seven bullpen pitchers have been tremendous, so why disrupt that?

 

If only that were true.

 

Bard regaining his form as a reliever makes him the best reliever of this team. You could remove any without blinking for him.

[VA Sox Fan]

If only that were true.

 

Bard regaining his form as a reliever makes him the best reliever of this team. You could remove any without blinking for him.

 

The BP looked bad in the beginning. A few hiccups here and there but overall pretty good IMO.

 

I was hoping he would succeed as a starter b/c I don't trust him in the BP. He's not hurt so it's got to be a mental issue (confidence etc). I don't have much hope for him in either role. But I do hope I'm wrong.

[SoxSport]

You won't remember when Ike was asked what Nixon had done as VP. He said if you give me a week I might think of something.

 

You could say the same for Henry, Lucchino and the front office the past few years.

[TutGadol]

I agree with a lot of Cafardo's points in this article.

 

Major issues land Bard in the minors

 

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Not quoting the whole message to not kill the page.

 

I don't think the bullpen is complete. It's doing good but it won't be this good in the long run, Aceves isn't a closer and I don't see him as consistent enough to set up in a championship contending team. I would like to see Melancon get another chance (9 K/BB, 13 k/9, 0 HR, 0.91 ERA over 20 IP), but he isn't a setup guy either.

 

Obviously nobody in this forum knows more about mechanics better then McClure, but I don't see him working out the starter thing this season. Even if he works his mechanics he still needs to learn the mental attributes of a starte. With Daiskue and Cook coming back soon, at least in this season, Bard provides more value from the bullpen. If he insists on starting, let him try again next spring.

 

And by the way, I can't believe the FO sent him to the minors. I really thought they wouldn't have the balls.

[mvp 78]

It seems like he's destined to top out at setup guy. Sucks for his checkbook.

[iortiz]

Before know that Pap was going to Philly, I said that Bard was not ready to be a closer in the near future (this year), I said that his problem was not his stuff but his mind in order to be an elite closer.

 

His future should be a closer. I'm not sure if he can do what Papelbon has done in his career as closer but that should be his role in the coming future or at least try, if no, he will be an eternal setup guy. A very good one BTW.

[Dojji]

For the love of God, not every power reliever is a future closer. if Bard topped out as a solid power MR, I'd have no problem with that. It's better than a lot of teams get from their first rounder in any given year.

 

People question Bard's mental toughness. I think the problem is much simpler -- a combination of physical fatigue and bad habits with his new mechanics. Both can be sorted out more easily in Pawtucket. That does not mean you give up on Bard. You don't give up on any potential SP the first time he struggles. Frankly I was amazed we didn't have an implosion like this sooner TBH. We were rushing the hell out of Bard's development as a SP, and for awhile it looked like we might just get away with it -- and we did, right up until the point that we didn't. Now hopefully things will happen at a saner pace and he can rebuild his mechanics in relative peace.

 

The real problem right now with projects like Bard (and to a lesser extent Salty, Masterson, and even Doubront) is that the Sox have no patience -- from the fans to the FO to anyone in between -- to develop a player in the majors anymore. They think every prospect should be Pedroia -- productive up to or near their career averages the first time they're called up. Everyone who watches baseball and remembers what he sees knows that that's laughably unrealistic -- but it's obvious that the fans think that, and there's some pretty strong evidence that the front office does as well. That's a good way to throw your hands up on a lot of players who turn into gold later for someone else.

[redsoxrules]

It seems like he's destined to top out at setup guy. Sucks for his checkbook.

 

Not really,

 

At his current form he would fetch more money being a set up man than a starter.

[a700hitter]

Not really,

 

At his current form he would fetch more money being a set up man than a starter.

As a succesful setup guy, he can have pretty long career. He will never make closer money or starter money, but as a mediocre to below average starter, his career would be very short.

[iortiz]

The thing Dojji is that this is a 180 MUSD payroll team. Want patience? Go to KC. No patience here. You want results now. Every game. That is what you expect from big teams like the BRS.

[iortiz]

As a succesful setup guy' date=' he can have pretty long career. He will never make closer money or starter money, but as a mediocre to below average starter, his career would be very short.[/quote']

 

Totally agree.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Bard doesnt have a future closing here but i would absolutely bet some team would make him a CL. If a 70 IP 3.00 10 K/9 MR hit the market they would def get like 4/28. Hell Bobby Jenks got 6 mil a year

[a700hitter]

You don't give up on any potential SP the first time he struggles. Frankly I was amazed we didn't have an implosion like this sooner TBH.

The guy was leading the league in walks. He didn't have one bad game. He had several bad game , and what is worse is that he wasn't progressing except to get progressively worse. The kid was unraveling before our eyes with every additional start. His velocity was dropping and his command was getting worse. He had no clue what was wrong. The Sox did the best thing for him and the team.

[Dojji]

The thing Dojji is that this is a 180 MUSD payroll team. Want patience? Go to KC. No patience here. You want results now. Every game. That is what you expect from big teams like the BRS.

 

Then we miss out on a lot of useful talent when guys like Justin Masterson and Josh Reddick are playing for someone else at positions we could really use.

 

Our payroll isn't enough of an advantage anymore where you can give away prospects by the double handful just because they're not instantly perfect.

[mvp 78]

Then we miss out on a lot of useful talent when guys like Justin Masterson and Josh Reddick are playing for someone else at positions we could really use.

 

Our payroll isn't enough of an advantage anymore where you can give away prospects by the double handful just because they're not instantly perfect.

 

So you didn't want VMart then?

[RedSoxNC84]

So you didn't want VMart then?

 

VMart/Vtek was a dream team compared to Salty/Shop

[mvp 78]

Not really,

 

At his current form he would fetch more money being a set up man than a starter.

 

How much is Jonathan Sanchez making this year?

[FredLynn]

Then we miss out on a lot of useful talent when guys like Justin Masterson and Josh Reddick are playing for someone else at positions we could really use.

 

Our payroll isn't enough of an advantage anymore where you can give away prospects by the double handful just because they're not instantly perfect.

 

Then I guess our FO better become smarter about recognizing talent faster, eh?

[NCPack2889]

How much is Jonathan Sanchez making this year?

 

$6 million, but Sanchez had two decent years, and good strikeout numbers. Bard's never done that.

[mvp 78]

$6 million' date=' but Sanchez had two decent years, and good strikeout numbers. Bard's never done that.[/quote']

 

Sanchez is a below average starter who has led the league in BBs, what Bard would be at this trajectory.

[NCPack2889]

Sanchez is a below average starter who has led the league in BBs' date=' what Bard would be at this trajectory.[/quote']

 

Sanchez never had more walks than strikeouts, and had a 3.07 ERA over a full season. I think that's what got him the $6 million, and it's pretty likely he won't get that again next year.

[mvp 78]

My point is, below average starters make more than good setup guys.