Enter: Will Middlebrooks

[Bellhorn04]

I think it's a tough position for the FO. I like WMB a lot, you'd have to be crazy not to. But there's a good possibility the kid's numbers are going to cool off or even slump. He hit 409/435/1000 in his first 5games. He's hit 214/267/357 in his last 7 games. Pitchers adapt quickly.

[jung]

I think it is a given that WMB is going to fall off and that his performance to date has represented something of a peak. However I don't think it is a given that Youk will come back to anything like the player he was in early 2011.

 

I also think that Youk is going to pick up the pace from where he was before his back issues this year but I think Youk is much closer to the player we saw before he went on the DL and I think while WMB is not likely to maintain performance at this peak level I still think he will generate way more offense than Youk is capable of while being a more solid defender than Youk is at this stage of his career.

 

Guys age at different rates and we were saying even before this year started that Youk might just be on a faster rate of decline than his age might indicate. He appears to have some hard miles on that body of his and I think it has caught up to him.

 

WMB's offense may be more critical to the Sox than even they think as the Sox are suffering from a severe power outage relative to what had been expected. Agons simply no longer hits HR's and I don't see any indication that he will hit HR's at anything like the rate anticipated when he was signed. Combine that now with Youk not really hitting at all at least before he went on the DL and now take WMB out of the lineup.

 

Ortiz and Pedey can just do so much. Ross does not really produce against RHer's and Sweeney is not a HR hitter against pitchers from either side. So combined with Agons lack of power, you take WMB out of this lineup and what do you have??.....a slow of foot, aging team that has no real reliable means of generating enough offense to make up for a pitching staff that at this point you would call "shaky" in spite of getting good performances from the starters for the last few games and the pen doing better.

 

You can just take so many productive members out of this lineup and still expect to generate offense. While CC did not produce last year making this year not that different so far, you have no Ells, no power from Agons, a slumping Youk and now you take the guy that has replaced Youks numbers and pull him out???? Unless Youk hits immediately upon return, I don't think the Sox have much of an offense in that case. I really think the Sox are going to insert Youk right back into the lineup. Don't know how long they will give him but I do think that is what is going to happen.

[Bellhorn04]

I think it is a given that WMB is going to fall off and that his performance to date has represented something of a peak. However I don't think it is a given that Youk will come back to anything like the player he was in early 2011.

 

I also think that Youk is going to pick up the pace from where he was before his back issues this year but I think Youk is much closer to the player we saw before he went on the DL and I think while WMB is not likely to maintain performance at this peak level I still think he will generate way more offense than Youk is capable of while being a more solid defender than Youk is at this stage of his career.

 

Guys age at different rates and we were saying even before this year started that Youk might just be on a faster rate of decline than his age might indicate. He appears to have some hard miles on that body of his and I think it has caught up to him.

 

WMB's offense may be more critical to the Sox than even they think as the Sox are suffering from a severe power outage relative to what had been expected. Agons simply no longer hits HR's and I don't see any indication that he will hit HR's at anything like the rate anticipated when he was signed. Combine that now with Youk not really hitting at all at least before he went on the DL and now take WMB out of the lineup.

 

Ortiz and Pedey can just do so much. Ross does not really produce against RHer's and Sweeney is not a HR hitter against pitchers from either side. So combined with Agons lack of power, you take WMB out of this lineup and what do you have??.....a slow of foot, aging team that has no real reliable means of generating enough offense to make up for a pitching staff that at this point you would call "shaky" in spite of getting good performances from the starters for the last few games and the pen doing better.

 

You can just take so many productive members out of this lineup and still expect to generate offense. While CC did not produce last year making this year not that different so far, you have no Ells, no power from Agons, a slumping Youk and now you take the guy that has replaced Youks numbers and pull him out???? Unless Youk hits immediately upon return, I don't think the Sox have much of an offense in that case. I really think the Sox are going to insert Youk right back into the lineup. Don't know how long they will give him but I do think that is what is going to happen.

 

I think you're right and I agree, the big question is, if Youk looks like crap how long do they wait to make the move.

[Bloodsox0]

I think it is a given that WMB is going to fall off and that his performance to date has represented something of a peak. However I don't think it is a given that Youk will come back to anything like the player he was in early 2011.

 

I also think that Youk is going to pick up the pace from where he was before his back issues this year but I think Youk is much closer to the player we saw before he went on the DL and I think while WMB is not likely to maintain performance at this peak level I still think he will generate way more offense than Youk is capable of while being a more solid defender than Youk is at this stage of his career.

 

Guys age at different rates and we were saying even before this year started that Youk might just be on a faster rate of decline than his age might indicate. He appears to have some hard miles on that body of his and I think it has caught up to him.

 

WMB's offense may be more critical to the Sox than even they think as the Sox are suffering from a severe power outage relative to what had been expected. Agons simply no longer hits HR's and I don't see any indication that he will hit HR's at anything like the rate anticipated when he was signed. Combine that now with Youk not really hitting at all at least before he went on the DL and now take WMB out of the lineup.

 

Ortiz and Pedey can just do so much. Ross does not really produce against RHer's and Sweeney is not a HR hitter against pitchers from either side. So combined with Agons lack of power, you take WMB out of this lineup and what do you have??.....a slow of foot, aging team that has no real reliable means of generating enough offense to make up for a pitching staff that at this point you would call "shaky" in spite of getting good performances from the starters for the last few games and the pen doing better.

 

You can just take so many productive members out of this lineup and still expect to generate offense. While CC did not produce last year making this year not that different so far, you have no Ells, no power from Agons, a slumping Youk and now you take the guy that has replaced Youks numbers and pull him out???? Unless Youk hits immediately upon return, I don't think the Sox have much of an offense in that case. I really think the Sox are going to insert Youk right back into the lineup. Don't know how long they will give him but I do think that is what is going to happen.

 

With or without Middlebrook, Youk, Ells, and CC this Sox team is only matched by Texas offensively. I think our worries should be the inconsistent pitching. We have more than enough offense to win the pitching can't continue with a 5-6+ ERA.

[BornToRun]

The pitching looks to be coming around.

[SoxSport]

Good decision for Youks to sharpen up in Pawtucket.

[jung]

With or without Middlebrook, Youk, Ells, and CC this Sox team is only matched by Texas offensively. I think our worries should be the inconsistent pitching. We have more than enough offense to win the pitching can't continue with a 5-6+ ERA.

 

Ortiz should be very good this year but you cannot expect him to hit at this torrid a pace and Aviles has already been coming down to earth. They will need either Youk to hit or Middlebrooks to stay.

[Bellhorn04]

Buster Olney on the Sox working toward a trade of Youk

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2012/05/16/buster-olney-on-mm-its-headed-down-that-path-to-trade-kevin-youkilis/

[a700hitter]

May 16th, 2012

Kevin Youkilis update: Doubles, scores for Pawtucket

Posted by Scott Lauber at 8:39 pm

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. — In the first game of his minor-league rehab stint, Kevin Youkilis went 1-for-2 with a double, a walk and a run scored in three plate appearances as the designated hitter tonight for Triple-A Pawtucket in Durham, N.C. Youkilis has missed the past 17 games because of a low back strain.

 

According to Bobby Valentine, Youkilis will take Thursday off before playing third base Friday night for the PawSox.

[Soxfan1]

Will Middlebrooks is 6 of his last 32 (.188) with 12 strikeouts and is down to .278. The scouting reports are starting to catch up with him a bit, as usually happens. He also made another mistake in the field, picking up a bunt that looked like it would roll foul.

 

Gotta bring Youk up this weekend and send the kid back down for a bit.

[jung]

I think the "when" of it depends on how well Youk does in his plate appearances in Pawtucket. I would want to see him get a few hits and gain some confidence before coming back remembering where he was when he went on the DL. If you are not hitting anything which is basically where he was when he went on the DL, you just don't know where to start. Youk was really being taken to the woodshed by the hard slider or cut FB on the outer half of the plate the last we saw of him. Now those are tough pitches to hit for RH hitters. So it is not like Youk is the only guy in the world that struggles with them (see Cody Ross against RH pitchers). Youk has been able to take those pitches with less than two strikes and dump them into right field if he has two strikes. Now Youk is just missing it completely and looks more like a guy with one of those grass cutters that you swing like a golf club when he goes after that pitch....he looks terrible. When a hitter ends up with an obvious out pitch then he fears two strikes and as a result gets anxious to swing at pitches before he gets two strikes logically figuring they are more likely to be pitches that he can handle than what is coming when he does have two strikes. The whole thing goes downhill from there, as is in part happening to AGonz right now.

 

Youk has to find a way to deal with those two pitches better than he was last we saw him as a means to start back. I believe it was a cut FB that stayed up a bit that he actually took over the fence in right field for a GSHR. One of his few bright moments this year. However he went right back to struggling after that HR. We will just have to see what happens to him. But I think he needs to find a little bit of success down on the farm before coming back to the big city lights.

[redsoxfan3]

Let's hope Youkilis is completely healthy and has a productive first few weeks back. I want to be put in a situation where we can hopefully trade Youk, bring Middlebrooks back up, and maybe get a decent prospect for Youk (maybe even some pitching help). Even if Youk performs well, then he might be worth keeping this year. I am never really in agreement with hoping that this is a player's last year with a team, but with Middlebrooks pretty much ready to take over the everyday role, I am hoping that Youk's time in Boston is done or near the end.

[a700hitter]

Gotta bring Youk up this weekend and send the kid back down for a bit.

People are demanding that Middlebrooks stay, but it looks ike Nava will stick for a while. Despite the fact that Middlebrooks may be coming back to earth a bit, I'd like to keep him in the lineup for his power threat. Other than Ortiz, we have no scary power threats. Gonzo's power has been non-existent to this point in the season. Maybe he will heat up. Maybe his shoulder is limiting him. He is falling far short of the fanfare and expectations when he was acquired. It was expected that he was going to be a huge offensive powerhouse. Since the All Star Break last year he has produced no power. Hopefully, Youk can bang a few balls out of the park when he returns, because Gonzo isn't going to protect Ortiz if he keeps hitting like this. He is not driving the ball to the opposite field at all.

[a700hitter]

Let's hope Youkilis is completely healthy and has a productive first few weeks back. I want to be put in a situation where we can hopefully trade Youk' date=' bring Middlebrooks back up, and maybe get a decent prospect for Youk (maybe even some pitching help). Even if Youk performs well, then he might be worth keeping this year. I am never really in agreement with hoping that this is a player's last year with a team, but with Middlebrooks pretty much ready to take over the everyday role, I am hoping that Youk's time in Boston is done or near the end.[/quote']I don't know about this^. If Youk can come back and anchor the cleanup spot in the order and OPS at around .900, any trade offer had better be pretty good. Getting a prospect or a bullpen piece is not enough. He has been injured and had a slow start. I think he can still hit. He's had trouble with pitch recognition and some minor mechanical flaws. I think he'll work those out. He has a very short stroke, so I don't think there is an issue of bat speed. It was nice to see a talented kid come up and show some flashes, but you don't throw your cleanup hitter on the trash heap after a couple of dozen games in favor of a kid with a dozen games experience. It reminds me of the push to get rid of Ortiz in 2009 and 2010. People were saying that he'd lost bat speed etc., when it was obvious that he was bringing the bat through the zone faster than anyone on the team. The team needs Youk. Hopefully, he can still play like Youk.

[mvp 78]

If someone can tell the difference in bat speed from year to year, they have better eyes than me.

[ellsburyforMVP]

I can already picture it...... Right now everyone wants Youk to get some ab's to " up his trade value"........... What happens if,when, youk comes back healthy, hits .300 the next 3 weeks, plays decent defense maybe a couple bombs?? How many people are going to want to trade him then?

[Dojji]

I can already picture it...... Right now everyone wants Youk to get some ab's to " up his trade value"........... What happens if' date='when, youk comes back healthy, hits .300 the next 3 weeks, plays decent defense maybe a couple bombs?? How many people are going to want to trade him then?[/quote']

 

You underestimate the siren call of the green grass on the other side of the fence.

[jung]

I certainly cannot tell bat speed from nothin'. My only comment about Youk was that I have never believed in weight training for baseball players and I particularly do not believe in it when a player adopts it late in his career. There was a huge big deal made of Youk going over the top with weight training in this off season and I do not remember him having a history of weight training. In fact the reason it was a big deal was because it was different for Youk. It was always being mentioned as a positive in the off season but to me it was a big red flag. One possible impact from excessive weight training for a baseball player would be reduced bat speed as a side effect of the increased muscle mass. So I can't tell his bat speed but I have wondered about the weight training from the first day I heard about it. Oh by the way, for any of us that has done regular weight training at some point in our lives as you get older, your back begins to protest and end up with some strain that may seem fine but you have taken some abuse. Why did Youk go on the DL?

[a700hitter]

If someone can tell the difference in bat speed from year to year' date=' they have better eyes than me.[/quote']Bat speed isn't a big issue for Youk, because he has a very short stroke to the ball. Bat speed for Ortiz is clearly still there. It is hard to judge it on the TV. In 2010, when Big Papi was getting killed on the boards and in the press as over the hill, slow bat etc., I took in a few games at Fenway behind home plate. The games I saw he didn't perform particularly well. He k'd on an 88-89 fastball at least once or twice. People thought it was proof positive that he'd lost bat speed. Up close, it was pretty clear that he was having pitch recognition issues. He was way out in front of the offspeed stuff and was recognizing the fast ball just a hair late. He was bringing the bat through the zone faster than anyone except maybe Beltre. I couldn't determine if his bat speed had changed from year to year. I don't think anyone can do that, but I saw plenty of bat speed from him in those games. You could see that he was just missing some fast balls, but he had them timed. Bat speed usually isn't the big problem when a guy is going bad. It usually is pitch recognition. Everyone talks about bat speed. I remember when we got Mike Lowell, the rap on him was that he lost bat speed. He never had a lot of bat speed. That first spring he couldn't differentiate the fast ball from the offspeed. Once he worked that out, he hit. Youk looks the same way to me that Lowell looked that spring. He's been lunging at offspeed pitches. I think he will work it out if he can stay healthy on the field. There's nothing wrong with his bat speed.

[Julian]

One possible impact from excessive weight training for a baseball player would be reduced bat speed as a side effect of the increased muscle mass.

 

That statement is in contradiction with the bulk muscle mass secondary to steroids. This caused an epidemic of sluggers. Brady Anderson went from 15 to 50 homers in one season after bulking up.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Probably in the minority but I think Middlebrooks needs more time in AAA and I'd be fine with Youkilis taking over once he's ready. WMB's K% is way too high right now to sustain his level of production, I think sending him down on a high note would be the appropriate move.

[jung]

That statement is in contradiction with the bulk muscle mass secondary to steroids. This caused an epidemic of sluggers. Brady Anderson went from 15 to 50 homers in one season after bulking up.

 

True but there are two components to bat speed right. There is a component that is maybe better defined as quickness....the ability to generate a lot of bat speed quickly which is generally associated with quickness in the wrists and then there is the actual bat speed through the hitting zone. You would think that muscle mass would help overall bat speed but not really assist the wrists in getting the bat started.

 

The ability to still hit balls that you are fooled on would seem to be more associated with quick wrists and I doubt extra muscle mass helps that at all and may even hinder it. Quick wrists will definitely help a hitter but I don't think it correlates directly to power hitting or even bat speed generally.

 

One thing we probably do remember from the steroid era is the number of balls that looked like they were not well hit that ended up going out......balls that off the bat did not even appear to be deep fly balls were going out. That happened so much that we even went through a period where folks started to look at the balls in an effort to see if MLB had juiced up the balls so that more would go out.

 

There is a study somebody did on bat speed using electronics and all sorts of equipment. They discussed it on NESN the other day. I have yet to be able to find it but apparently Papi did participate in it. I am going to try to find more data on this thing this weekend when I have more time. If I find the thing I will post a link or maybe post up some data.

[a700hitter]

Injury updates: Sweeney, Ross, Youk getting close; Dice-K shut down

Posted by Scott Lauber at 4:34 pm

PHILADELPHIA — A few injury updates following the Red Sox’ 5-1 victory over the Phillies here today:

 

–Tests administered last night and today revealed that Ryan Sweeney may have suffered a mild concussion when he hit the ground after making a game-saving, full-extension diving catch in center field Saturday night. Sweeney fared better on tests today than he did last night and said he is hopeful of playing tomorrow night in Baltimore. “I kind of had some symptoms last night,” Sweeney said. “It’s better now. Just a little sore.”

 

–Cody Ross was walking more easily before an after the game. Earlier today, he said he wanted to “treat the crap out of” his bruised left foot in the hopes of playing either tomorrow night or Tuesday in Baltimore.

 

–Kevin Youkilis will give his low back another test by playing tomorrow night for Triple-A Pawtucket. After that, it’s possible he could join the Red Sox on Tuesday in Baltimore. “If he feels good after the game, I don’t see any reason why not,” Bobby Valentine said. “It’s on him. He wants another couple at-bats, or if he needs anything.”

 

–Rather than pitching Tuesday night for Pawtucket, as scheduled, Daisuke Matsuzaka received an injection to relieve some stiffness in his right trapezius muscle. Matsuzaka’s 30-day minor league rehab assignment is due to expire Wednesday. By shutting down Matsuzaka, the Red Sox will be able to restart his rehab clock and buy him some additional time in the minors. Matsuzaka still is less than a year removed from Tommy John elbow surgery.

Well, we get at least one more game of WMB.

 

If Dice K is being pushed back to the end of June at the earliest, they had better get Oswalt in the fold.

[seabeachfred]

I don't know everyone is getting so high and emotional on Dice K's return. He is still the same jackass who nibbles his way to four or five innings and a high pitch count and little to show for it. Let him take as long as he wants and then get him the hell out of the country once and for all. As for Ross and Sweeney it seems we are just star crossed in this injury department. We seem to go down like flies and don't count on Youkilis coming back and playing for any long period of time. He is physically falling apart by the day and we need only remember the Mike Lowell saga when all those rumors about trading him went up in smoke because he wasn't healthy and or the Red Sox simply would not take on any part of the contract they were trading away. Hence we had a clog in the lineup and a ring around the rosie batting order those late days in 2010. It could be the same with Youkilis if the Sox refuse to eat part of that contract. The front office of ours---what a fu@@ed up group.

[KCBRUIN]

I think Dice K could be dominant out of the pen, and as a starter he can't be any worse than what we've got now.

[SoxSport]

Bat speed is a very common term in baseball, but it's actually bat acceleration--how quickly you can get your bat through the strike zone from standing--and the velocity of the bat at impact. Speed is the scalar term for velocity. Velocity is speed and direction-- a vector quantity. Acceleration is rate of velocity change--that's critical in reacting to a pitch--it's what diminishes with age and conditioning.

[SoxSport]

I don't know everyone is getting so high and emotional on Dice K's return. He is still the same jackass who nibbles his way to four or five innings and a high pitch count and little to show for it. Let him take as long as he wants and then get him the hell out of the country once and for all. As for Ross and Sweeney it seems we are just star crossed in this injury department. We seem to go down like flies and don't count on Youkilis coming back and playing for any long period of time. He is physically falling apart by the day and we need only remember the Mike Lowell saga when all those rumors about trading him went up in smoke because he wasn't healthy and or the Red Sox simply would not take on any part of the contract they were trading away. Hence we had a clog in the lineup and a ring around the rosie batting order those late days in 2010. It could be the same with Youkilis if the Sox refuse to eat part of that contract. The front office of ours---what a fu@@ed up group.

 

Pitchers rarely come back close to 100% after arm or shoulder surgery--at least until the next year. Wainright, for example, isn't close to his previous form yet--probably won't be until next year. They shouldn't be counting on Dice-K very much this year.

[ORS]

Bat speed is a very common term in baseball' date=' but it's actually bat acceleration--how quickly you can get your bat through the strike zone from standing--and the velocity of the bat at impact. Speed is the scalar term for velocity. Velocity is speed and direction-- a vector quantity. [b']Acceleration is rate of velocity change--that's critical in reacting to a pitch--it's what diminishes with age and conditioning[/b].

I don't think the physical aspects of this acceleration are what deteriorate over time. I'd be willing to bet that the actual measureable acceleration of the bat through the hitting zone, at full effort, is not what makes older hitters fade in their performance at the plate. I do agree that reaction is closely tied to what the scouts call "bat speed", and I think the component of reaction that deteriorates is pitch recognition. When they start to say that an older hitter "can't get around" on an inside FB, it's because they aren't pulling the trigger on the swing quickly enough.

[Gringo]

Youk for Blanton, sign Oswalt, put Bard back in the bullpen, done.

[a700hitter]

I don't think the physical aspects of this acceleration are what deteriorate over time. I'd be willing to bet that the actual measureable acceleration of the bat through the hitting zone' date=' at full effort, is not what makes older hitters fade in their performance at the plate. I do agree that reaction is closely tied to what the scouts call "bat speed", and I think the component of reaction that deteriorates is pitch recognition. When they start to say that an older hitter "can't get around" on an inside FB, it's because they aren't pulling the trigger on the swing quickly enough.[/quote']I agree. That's why many notable hitters have acknowledged that they became guess hitters later in their career. Musial said that he could still hit the fastball or the curve, but he had to guess which one was coming.

 

I think that the proof that the speed of the bat does not decline is borne out by the fact that the older declining hitter can still hit the ball as long as they did when they were younger. If the bat speed was diminished that would not be true.