Enter: Will Middlebrooks

[Palodios]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but has anyone talked about Middlebrook's early opposition? It seems like the perfect opportunity for the Red Sox to call him up-- when has a chance to play against AAAA players. The Red Sox should take advantage of stretches like this when they are playing several teams to give their younger players a chance to test on middling major league competition.

[jacksonianmarch]

Twins, White Sox, A's, Orioles, Royals and Guardians. Not necessarily the cream of the proverbial crop. Baltimore is much improved and today, Masterson is legit, so he isnt just facing creampuffs, but you are right. If you have a stretch to get a kid's confidence up, this was it

[a700hitter]

Youkilis will get his job back when he returns from the DL. That is just the way it is. Unless the kid has been working in the OF, he'll be going to the bench or back to AAA, and I think that would be a mistake.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Youkilis will get his job back when he returns from the DL. That is just the way it is. Unless the kid has been working in the OF' date=' he'll be going to the bench or back to AAA, and I think that would be a mistake.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure this is 100% accurate. I can almost guarantee you that Cherrington has been on the phone already about Youkilis. If he can call a team like the Angels or White Sox, they can have scouts go see him play with Pawtucket and scout him there. You can see bat speed and agility in AAA games, not just MLB games.

[Elktonnick]

I'm not sure this is 100% accurate. I can almost guarantee you that Cherrington has been on the phone already about Youkilis. If he can call a team like the Angels or White Sox' date=' they can have scouts go see him play with Pawtucket and scout him there. You can see bat speed and agility in AAA games, not just MLB games.[/quote']

 

Judging by BV reception of Middlebrooks in the dugout after his home run, I'd say there will be considerable pressurefrom many fronts to move Youklis and keep Middlebrooks up in the bigs despite the so called "you can't lose your job because of an injury rule". BTW I guess they didn't observe that rule during Wally Pip's day.

[jacksonianmarch]

That was 90 years ago. Also, Youkilis is unmoveable as is. He must rebuild his value, and he cannot do that by sitting.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That was 90 years ago. Also' date=' Youkilis is unmoveable as is. He must rebuild his value, and he cannot do that by sitting.[/quote']

 

Not at all. Just have to be creative.

 

Think years, not money. Move Youkilis + $4mm to the White Sox for Thornton. White Sox take on 7.5mm of salary for 1 year, give up $5.5mm of salary for 2 years. They get out of that contract earlier, lets them spend it elsewhere to rebuild (i.e. IFA, draft, etc). For a team like the White Sox who are in a complete rebuilding mode, they could easily make a move like that.

 

There are plenty of tough contracts out there that people would be willing to get out from under.

 

Would the Mets really turn their nose up to a trade for Johan if the Sox gave up Youkilis + a mid level prospect for Johan + $15mm (making him a $17mm pitcher over the next 2 seasons). Ike Davis is hitting .175, and Youk could spell both he and Wright, and that's another team who could use that money to rebuild.

 

I'm not saying either one of those trades are ideal, but you get the point. There are plenty of opportunities to trade Youkilis as is (once he's off the DL).

 

Think of it this way. If you were the Mets (or a Mets fan), wouldn't you be happy to get Johan's contract off your books and get another step forward to a rebuilt team? And if you're the Red Sox, wouldn't you like to have a shut down pitcher like Johan to throw from your 3rd slot, and slot Bard back to the bullpen?

[ORS]

And the totally fantastical Thornton money-swap trade rears its head again. We get it, you can quit bringing it up until it actually happens, which isn't likely because it isn't as clever as you want it to be.

[Elktonnick]

That was 90 years ago. Also' date=' Youkilis is unmoveable as is. He must rebuild his value, and he cannot do that by sitting.[/quote']

 

The surest way to bankruptcy is trying to rebuild asset value of an asset that is well beyond rehabilitation. Youklis will never be worth more than he is now. They should have made the move last winter but didn't. He is worth less now than then. He'll be worth less in future after yet another stint on the DL after this one. As the song says you got to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Cut your loses and move on.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And the totally fantastical Thornton money-swap trade rears its head again. We get it' date=' you can quit bringing it up until it actually happens, which isn't likely because it isn't as clever as you want it to be.[/quote']

 

It's called an example. It's the principle of the trade, not the players. Sorry you can't wrap your head around that terribly complex idea.

[ORS]

The surest way to bankruptcy is trying to rebuild asset value of an asset that is well beyond rehabilitation. Youklis will never be worth more than he is now. They should have made the move last winter but didn't. He is worth less now than then. He'll be worth less in future after yet another stint on the DL after this one. As the song says you got to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Cut your loses and move on.

Strong prediction, essentially saying he's cooked as a player. We'll see how it plays out. I don't think the ship has sailed on his ability or trade value.

[redsoxfan3]

Youkilis will get his job back when he returns from the DL. That is just the way it is. Unless the kid has been working in the OF' date=' he'll be going to the bench or back to AAA, and I think that would be a mistake.[/quote']

 

I don't know what makes you consistently keep thinking this. I am not saying you are wrong, but Middlebrooks is doing everything in his power to be the starting. He has been better than Youkilis this year. Why would we go back to him if Middlebrooks is doing better? That makes no sense. Just because Youk is making more money and has been a good hitter in the past does not mean that he is going to perform better, deserves playing time, or automatically gets his spot back at 3B. He is injury prone and has struggled this year.

 

Also, I keep seeing you constantly saying Nava is going to start to do worse. There is no proof of that. Nava looks like a solid player. I am not saying you are wrong about that, but as of now the kid is performing very well and is deserving playing time. You keep on saying that you do not know why he is hitting sixth, but so far he is deserving to hit sixth. With him on the team, we have been a better team.

[ORS]

It's called an example. It's the principle of the trade' date=' not the players. Sorry you can't wrap your head around that terribly complex idea. [/quote']

I know what it is, and it's a s***** example. You have failed, in the half dozen or so threads you have posted it, to give one motivation for the White Sox to be "free" from their obligations to Thornton, who is performing and not making enough be a budget strain for a team in market the size of Chicago. And, this discussion is about the players, you made it so with such a specific example. Everyone gets the principle, it's just that everyone else thinks the market for him is lower than you do, and you haven't been very convincing in your efforts to argue the contrary.

[Elktonnick]

Strong prediction' date=' essentially saying he's cooked as a player. We'll see how it plays out. I don't think the ship has sailed on his ability or trade value.[/quote']

 

Youk will hang on but he'll never be an all star again

[SoxFanForsyth]

I know what it is' date=' and it's a s***** example. You have failed, in the half dozen or so threads you have posted it, to give one motivation for the White Sox to be "free" from their obligations to Thornton, who is performing and not making enough be a budget strain for a team in market the size of Chicago. And, this discussion is about the players, you made it so with such a specific example. Everyone gets the principle, it's just that everyone else thinks the market for him is lower than you do, and you haven't been very convincing in your efforts to argue the contrary.[/quote']

 

Really? It's a s***** example?? What about the Johan example? Just conveniently going to ignore that one? I didn't make it only about players because I mentioned two separate examples.

 

And I've posted it a few times? Kind of like you wore through that whole Middlebrooks to the Outfield topic? Boy. Hypocritical tonight, aren't we?

 

Hmm. Sounds about right. Good input, though.

[jacksonianmarch]

Youkilis already is bankrupted as a commodity elk. You deal him now and you will need to eat the whole nut. If he comes back and continues to hit .220 with no power, then guess what, he is just as worthless as he is now. If he comes back and hits .280 with 10 HRs and a .360OBP between now and July 31st, then he is prime trade bait and could come at a premium. And the Thornton trade is ridiculous. Makes no sense for the White Sox to take on the entire salary committment of Thornton in a single yr, especially when Thornton could be dealt at the deadline with another team assuming the whole contract. If the White Sox wanted to get out from under Thornton's deal and made him available today, about 20 teams would make a bid on him with 10 of them wanting no money from the White Sox in return. And, the White Sox have made it known that they are trying to rebuild/retool. How does a broken down 33 yr old out of position 3b who is currently injured ascertain said goal? It doesnt, take that idea, douse it in lighter fluid, then shoot it with a flare gun

[SoxFanForsyth]

Oh. And I guess I didn't mention sending a prospect over with Youkilis.

 

Oh wait, yeah I did.

[jacksonianmarch]

What prospect? The sox have a massive dropoff from their top tier guys to their C level prospects. If you are giving up a Barnes, Ranaudo, or Bogaerts then you're talking. If you arent, then you aint gonna get a bite

[SoxFanForsyth]

Youkilis already is bankrupted as a commodity elk. You deal him now and you will need to eat the whole nut. If he comes back and continues to hit .220 with no power' date=' then guess what, he is just as worthless as he is now. If he comes back and hits .280 with 10 HRs and a .360OBP between now and July 31st, then he is prime trade bait and could come at a premium. And the Thornton trade is ridiculous. Makes no sense for the White Sox to take on the entire salary committment of Thornton in a single yr, especially when Thornton could be dealt at the deadline with another team assuming the whole contract. If the White Sox wanted to get out from under Thornton's deal and made him available today, about 20 teams would make a bid on him with 10 of them wanting no money from the White Sox in return. And, the White Sox have made it known that they are trying to rebuild/retool. How does a broken down 33 yr old out of position 3b who is currently injured ascertain said goal? It doesnt, take that idea, douse it in lighter fluid, then shoot it with a flare gun[/quote']

 

The point of the Thornton trade is to illustrate that you are trading Youk for years on another contract. Thornton may not be the best idea, but a guy like Johan could work. I'm just saying that you can trade Youkilis without sacrificing Middlebrooks back to Pawtucket if you can take on some salary and maybe 1 more year on another contract. And the Mets would be thrilled to get rid of Johan's contract, and the Sox would likely be happy to get a solid SP in return. Again. Just an example. Just the principle.

 

In terms of the Youkilis return - If he comes back and hits .220 with no power, sure, you're in the same spot that you were in right now, but you've also got a huge void in the lineup when you've got a kid who is hitting .310 with an OPS of 1.070 right now, and you're trying to claw your way back into being relevant right now. If this team had a better record, sure you could try to build Youk's value and if you lost a couple extra games in the process, it wouldn't be a huge deal. But if you lose a couple extra games now by trying to build value, that's a much bigger deal.

[SoxFanForsyth]

What prospect? The sox have a massive dropoff from their top tier guys to their C level prospects. If you are giving up a Barnes' date=' Ranaudo, or Bogaerts then you're talking. If you arent, then you aint gonna get a bite[/quote']

 

If you trade Youk + $$$ + 1 prospect? I'm not saying you're going to get even money, but you're going get a lot closer to it than you would without that. A guy like JC Linares would be a good addition to a trade. He's crushing it right now in AA (.333 average, .961 OPS). But it all depends on who you get back.

[jacksonianmarch]

27 yr olds in the minors are not prospects. They are AAAA players

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, what is the impetus for the Mets to move Johan? He's signed only through next yr and after missing an entire season, he's come back pretty well, albeit with innings limits. Also, why would the Red Sox want to take on Johan's salary when they want to get under the cap for next yr? And where does Youkilis play? David Wright is at 3b and Ike Davis will eventually be at 1b. Makes no sense for anyone involved

[SoxFanForsyth]

27 yr olds in the minors are not prospects. They are AAAA players

 

Drafted from IFA when he was 25. Not a 16 year old draftee who has spent 11 years in the minors like you'd like to make people believe.

[Palodios]

Oh. And I guess I didn't mention sending a prospect over with Youkilis.

 

Oh wait, yeah I did.

 

And ofcourse, there is the other option. Eating Youkilis contract in order to get some value from another team for him. Maybe pull in a mid-tier pitching prospects, or a 7th inning bullpen guy. Youk can get some value, but unfortunately I don't think the Red Sox will be able to get money AND players for him.

 

And at this point, trading away prospects for this team seems out of the question, IMO.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Also' date=' what is the impetus for the Mets to move Johan? He's signed only through next yr and after missing an entire season, he's come back pretty well, albeit with innings limits. Also, why would the Red Sox want to take on Johan's salary when they want to get under the cap for next yr? And where does Youkilis play? David Wright is at 3b and Ike Davis will eventually be at 1b. Makes no sense for anyone involved[/quote']

 

1. Johan is essentially signed to 2 years/49.5mm. The Mets are a rebuilding franchise. If you can get what ultimately amounts to $22.5mm off the books, that's a huge amount of money.

 

2. Sox are in desperate need for pitching right now. If they can move Youkilis and get back a solid SP who can slide into the rotation and bump Bard into the bullpen, creating a better rotation and bullpen, they will almost certainly do it. And, as I said, they would get back $$$ from the Mets. If they get back $15mm from the Mets, the Mets would be spending $27mm (15mm for Johan + $12mm for Youk) rather than $49.5mm they would be spending. Also, the Red Sox would get a very good pitcher for a net of $12mm (Johan $24mm this year less the $12mm off the books from Youkilis), and would have him for $10.5mm next year, which is essentially what they are paying DiceK right now.

 

3. The Sox are trying to get under the cap by 2014, which is the same thing the Yankees are doing, and is when the new CBA takes effect with the higher luxury tax. This deal has zero implications on that.

 

4. First off, it's a salary dump, so getting rid of the contract is the most important thing. Second off, Ike Davis is coming off an injury and severely underperforming. Third, Wright is coming off an injury, and while he's performing well so far, he will need quite a few days off. Youkilis would be a welcome addition to those corner IF positions.

 

But like I said - It's a salary dump more than anything. Toss in a prospect like Linares or Oscar Tejada. Rather than just giving $25 or $27mm and eating half of his salary, they are getting another player in return.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And ofcourse, there is the other option. Eating Youkilis contract in order to get some value from another team for him. Maybe pull in a mid-tier pitching prospects, or a 7th inning bullpen guy. Youk can get some value, but unfortunately I don't think the Red Sox will be able to get money AND players for him.

 

And at this point, trading away prospects for this team seems out of the question, IMO.

 

Good point - Eat the majority of his contract and get a low level prospect with decent upside in return. But that would likely require showcasing him, which is what I'm trying to avoid.

[Palodios]

Good point - Eat the majority of his contract and get a low level prospect with decent upside in return. But that would likely require showcasing him' date=' which is what I'm trying to avoid.[/quote']

 

If you don't showcase Youk, you'll probably come away with very little from any trade. I do very much want to stress that trading away prospects to get rid of him is really not a good idea at all.

[mvp 78]

If I'm a GM, I have little interest in an aging player who has broken down 3 straight years.

 

His trade value is miniscule. Keep him as a RH bat off the bench and insurance in case of injury.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Is it fair to say that youk may have more value ( albeit maybe not much more ) to an American league team? Given his age and declining agility... He could be a big DH upgrade to a few teams and be able to fill in at 3b/1b..... This is in regards to the mets "proposed" deal your talking about

[seabeachfred]

If I'm a GM, I have little interest in an aging player who has broken down 3 straight years.

 

His trade value is miniscule. Keep him as a RH bat off the bench and insurance in case of injury.

 

That's the best course of action in my opinion as well. There is no way in hell that the Red Sox should send Middlebrooks down to the minors again. He seems like the real thing and has a great future for us. Youk has no trade value to speak of at the present time and, frankly, I don't want to give him some by playing him and relegating Will somewhere else, either the bench or Pawtucket. It is time to turn the page on that one. Besides, we all know now that Kevin will not be with us next year and the only question would be if Henry would be willing to eat the contract and release him if he starts to act up when he comes back because of a lack of playing time.