How about Daniel Bard so far?

[mvp 78]

I don't really understand Dojji's point.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't really understand Dojji's point.

 

Yeah, I'm lost on that one too. I think most people would agree the A's conversion of Eckersley to a reliever paid off handsomely.

[ORS]

I don't really understand Dojji's point.

Don't worry, neither does he.

[Dojji]

Not sure I understand this back and forth.

 

I think Dojji is putting Larussa and the A's down.....meanwhile mvp78 is making a sarcastic comment.....

 

Dojji, you know that Larussa won 3 WS and is third all time in wins right?

 

Sure, but that doesn't change the math about moving a starter to the bullpen -- especially a competent SP.

 

Just because the A's did something, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, even if it worked. They tried all sorts of wacky crap, whether it's Charlie Finley, Tony La Russa, or Billy Beane, they always seem to attract that sort.

 

Hard to say Eckersley couldn't have been as useful as a starter if they could pull a half decent closer. Especially outside the 4-5 years he's really known for as a closer.

[Bellhorn04]

Dojji, you're fighting a losing battle on Eckersley. The man ended up with 390 saves and a .998 WHIP as a reliever. The A's converted him to a reliever in 1987 and in the next 6 years they went to 3 World Series and 4 ALCS.

[SCM33]

Sure' date=' but that doesn't change the math about moving a starter to the bullpen -- especially a competent SP.[/quote']

He was an allstar starting pitcher in 2 of his 12 years as a starting pitcher.

 

Just because the A's did something' date=' that doesn't mean it's a good idea, even if it worked. They tried all sorts of wacky crap, whether it's Charlie Finley, Tony La Russa, or Billy Beane, they always seem to attract that sort.[/quote']

Finley was an idiot. Beane and LaRussa are/were excellent at what they do among their peers.

 

Hard to say Eckersley couldn't have been as useful as a starter if they could pull a half decent closer. Especially outside the 4-5 years he's really known for as a closer.

When he made the change to closer, he was 32 and had been a starting pitcher for 12 years. Are you really going to argue that he was only known for a closer for 4-5 years? What else is he known for? Not starting, thats for sure.

[Spitball]

Hard to say Eckersley couldn't have been as useful as a starter if they could pull a half decent closer. Especially outside the 4-5 years he's really known for as a closer.

 

Eckersley has said he could no longer have worked through a line-up a second time at the time he was converted to relief. His last few years in Boston he had k/9 rates that where below 5 per 9 innings (Less than 4 one year). It went up a bit in the NL but went to 9 per 9 innings in his peak years with Oakland. Eck was through as a starter at the time he was converted to relief.

[Dojji]

Well if that's the case, then Eckersley's not even relevant, because he was done being a starter.

 

Remember how I worded my original point. "You never bolster your bullpen at the expense of your rotation." You never take a GOOD starter out of the rotation to strengthen the pen. If Eck wasn't a candidate for the rotation at the time, then why even bring him up? He has nothing to do with what I originally said.

[SCM33]

So s***** starters are better than elite closers?

 

Not saying Bard is s*****, but thats a terrible argument.

 

Mariano Rivera. Dennis Eckersley.......

 

All closers or relievers.....are not starters, because they were not very good at it. Bard is a work in progress.

 

Well if that's the case, then Eckersley's not even relevant, because he was done being a starter.

 

Remember how I worded my original point. "You never bolster your bullpen at the expense of your rotation." You never take a GOOD starter out of the rotation to strengthen the pen. If Eck wasn't a candidate for the rotation at the time, then why even bring him up? He has nothing to do with what I originally said.

 

Bard is a GOOD starting pitcher? Since when have we determined that?

 

See, the thing is....I can spin that against you......You take an elite guy out of the bullpen to make him an average starting pitcher?

[Dojji]

Bard is a GOOD starting pitcher? Since when have we determined that?

 

See, the thing is....I can spin that against you......You take an elite guy out of the bullpen to make him an average starting pitcher?

 

No you can't, not while Bard is leading our starters in ERA.

 

If he struggles later, fine. But right now we have at least 2 other starters who should be more vunlerable to lose their rotation spots over Bard. I'd call Bard the third most secure starter on this team, with Beckett and Lester ahead of him and Doubront just a bit behind him (although really not very much).

 

Guess who that leaves.

[SCM33]

No you can't, not while Bard is leading our starters in ERA.

19.1 IP

[Dojji]

19.1 IP

 

Because of the start that got skipped, yes.

 

He's still the only guy in the rotation who hasn't been lit up twice.

[Palodios]

Because of the start that got skipped, yes.

 

He's still the only guy in the rotation who hasn't been lit up twice.

 

In all fairness, 4 out of 5 of Beckett's start were QS.

[BornToRun]

In all fairness' date=' 4 out of 5 of Beckett's start were QS.[/quote']

Beckett proved to me that I can still count on him after his start against Texas.

[SoxSport]

Not sure I understand this back and forth.

 

I think Dojji is putting Larussa and the A's down.....meanwhile mvp78 is making a sarcastic comment.....

 

Dojji, you know that Larussa won 3 WS and is third all time in wins right?

 

LaRussa won his first title with the As and converted Eck to closer. Dick Williams also managed the As to a title --maybe earlier--after he left the Red Sox. The As were a pretty dominant team in those days.

 

Only Connie Mack and John McGraw had more lifetime wins than LaRussa, who managed the White Sox, As and Cardinals. He was actually fired by the White Sox two years after he won a division title there. Big mistake. He has a law doctorate degree. A few brains doesn't hurt in the dugout.

[jung]

Seems to me that Bard is destined to go back to the pen in some role when dice comes back to the Sox and comes back to form. That is not the same thing as removing a starter from the rotation to bolster the pen. Cook should come up but Buch is struggling enough at this point that I actually think Buch could use a start or two or three for the PawSox just to get a chance to work things out and continue his working recovery without being under do much scrutiny every time out. I think at this point Buch has gotten more run support than any other starter in baseball. Where would he be without that.

 

The NESN and other media homers do not make things better by putting on blinders and turning s***** performances into good performances via the pad and pen.

 

I probably would not suggest sending Buch off for some rehab starts in Pawtucket were it not for the fact that the Sox must figure out what Cook really has and they need to do it now. Even if there turns out to be no room for Cook showcasing him could result in a packaged up multi-player trade that could bring the Sox back some bull pen arms.

[Dojji]

LaRussa won his first title with the As and converted Eck to closer. Dick Williams also managed the As to a title --maybe earlier--after he left the Red Sox. The As were a pretty dominant team in those days.

 

Only Connie Mack and John McGraw had more lifetime wins than LaRussa, who managed the White Sox, As and Cardinals. He was actually fired by the White Sox two years after he won a division title there. Big mistake. He has a law doctorate degree. A few brains doesn't hurt in the dugout.

 

Yep, he's a smart man, who did a lot of things right. But just because LaRussa did something doesn't automatically mean that it was smart to do. If you start thinking otherwise, then you have created a cult of personality around LaRussa. I mean he is a good manager, but...

[Dojji]

Seems to me that Bard is destined to go back to the pen in some role when dice comes back to the Sox and comes back to form.

 

When was the last time Daisuke was consistently 'on form'? 4 years ago? 5?

 

This is a good exhibit of just how perverted this has gotten. If it was just about Daisuke, his arrival would have been met with a resounding "meh" because that's all he's earned in this uniform, but for some reason, everyone's all just-wait-until-Daisuke-gets-back. Like it's some kind of messianic coming or something.

 

People are pulling for Daisuke now exclusively because he's the one best chance of them getting Bard in the pen, regardless of the fact that Daisuke has been mediocre and inconsistent for his entire freaking career with the Sox and hasn't been a match for what Bard is doing right now as a starter since the first few months after his arrival in the States. It's bizarre.

[mvp 78]

I'm pulling for DiceK because he's better than Padilla and Cook. I also believe Bard will be in the pen in August to limit innings and Buchholz may be headed to the DL/pen eventually. The Sox need 6-7 SP's due to injuries/ineffectiveness. DiceK could be an upgrade for this poor performing staff.

[Dojji]

Well I'd take Daisuke over Buchholz right now. How could you not? Buck needs to get something worked out.

[User Name]

When was the last time Daisuke was consistently 'on form'? 4 years ago? 5?

 

This is a good exhibit of just how perverted this has gotten. If it was just about Daisuke, his arrival would have been met with a resounding "meh" because that's all he's earned in this uniform, but for some reason, everyone's all just-wait-until-Daisuke-gets-back. Like it's some kind of messianic coming or something.

 

People are pulling for Daisuke now exclusively because he's the one best chance of them getting Bard in the pen, regardless of the fact that Daisuke has been mediocre and inconsistent for his entire freaking career with the Sox and hasn't been a match for what Bard is doing right now as a starter since the first few months after his arrival in the States. It's bizarre.

 

So 2008 magically disappeared?

[Dojji]

Daisuke got through 08 on pure deception. In early 07 he had the legit stuff he was supposed to have and could muscle it up to 96 consistently. I have no idea what happened but by the end of 07 he was sitting 91.

 

I've bored you to tears with my Daisuke-has-been-nursing-an-injury-since-the-07-all-star-break theory but everything I've seen since tells me not to ignore the possibility.

[User Name]

Daisuke got through 08 on pure deception. In early 07 he had the legit stuff he was supposed to have and could muscle it up to 96 consistently. I have no idea what happened but by the end of 07 he was sitting 91.

 

I've bored you to tears with my Daisuke-has-been-nursing-an-injury-since-the-07-all-star-break theory but everything I've seen since tells me not to ignore the possibility.

 

Wait, what?

 

In 2007, his average fastball velocity was 91.9 MPH topping out at 97 MPH. In 2008, his average fastball velocity was 91.8 topping out at 97 MPH.

[Dojji]

I'm just talking about what I observed from watching him pitch. Sure, he could top out where he always did, but when you're hurt, your command falls off and you have to drop velo to throw strikes. Saw a lot of that ever since the 07 break. And it's not all about Daisuke lacking confidence and nibbling either.

[User Name]

If you're hurt, the first thing that goes is velocity. It's not that you have to drop velocity to throw strikes, you just don't have velocity, as evidenced by his 2011 outings.

 

You're reaching a bit here.

[Laser Show]

Daisuke was just flat out good in 2008. His only issue was walks, but the hits he didn't give up more than made up for those. He was 2nd in the league in ERA+, how can the entire season be an abberation?

 

He injured his hip in 09, and it's quite possible that that is what caused his numbers to drop.

[User Name]

Daisuke was just flat out good in 2008. His only issue was walks, but the hits he didn't give up more than made up for those. He was 2nd in the league in ERA+, how can the entire season be an abberation?

 

He injured his hip in 09, and it's quite possible that that is what caused his numbers to drop.

 

That year his average fastball velocity dropped considerably by the way.

[Dojji]

If you're hurt, the first thing that goes is velocity. It's not that you have to drop velocity to throw strikes, you just don't have velocity, as evidenced by his 2011 outings.

 

You're reaching a bit here.

 

You're not correct. If you're hurt, the first thing that goes is control. One of the first signs that an injured pitcher is in trouble is that he can't get it over the plate

 

Of course it depends on the injury to an extent. A lower body injury would impact velocity more. But Daisuke had a shoulder/elbow/TJ problem, and that affects command.

[Laser Show]

You're not correct. If you're hurt, the first thing that goes is control. One of the first signs that an injured pitcher is in trouble is that he can't get it over the plate

 

Of course it depends on the injury to an extent. A lower body injury would impact velocity more. But Daisuke had a shoulder/elbow/TJ problem, and that affects command.

 

Sorry, but his velocity dropped after the 09 WBC iirc.

 

In early January 2010, Matsuzaka was interviewed by Japanese magazine Friday. During the interview, Matsuzaka revealed that he had in fact injured his right hip while training for the '09 WBC. "[The Classic] was hard. I relied on my wits and my shoulder strength. I had to be creative. I varied the paces between the pitches; I used the different kind of slider that I usually don't throw."

 

I think the TJ might even stem from adjusting his mechanics and pitches.

[User Name]

You're not correct. If you're hurt, the first thing that goes is control. One of the first signs that an injured pitcher is in trouble is that he can't get it over the plate

 

Of course it depends on the injury to an extent. A lower body injury would impact velocity more. But Daisuke had a shoulder/elbow/TJ problem, and that affects command.

 

You couldn't be more far from the truth. The first thing any throwing arm injury or lower body injury saps from a pitcher is velocity, command being the secondary issue. I honestly have no idea where you're coming up with this stuff.