Valentine's Big Mouth

[jung]

Biggest problem I have the V at the moment is not his public comments about players. We all expected that. We might not like it. We may be OK with it. We did expect it.

 

What I did not expect was the in-game issues that are arising. While it is early in the season, the decisions or lack of decisions are really difficult to swallow. We thought we were getting loud mouth V attached to baseball genius V. We got loudmouth V for sure.

 

Case in point:

The way V used Bard today is something I just can't explain or rationalize. V did say in his presser that it was a mistake to leave him in. However, that was obvious before he did it. Bard was struggling with his pitches at that point. A pitcher struggling with fatigue to the degree that Bard was does not suddenly turn it around. Bard had to come out of the game at that point. This was not one of those cases where you could say that the starter is still my best bet regardless of who V had working in the pen. Bard was not just shot but way shot at that point. The ball and Bard's rhythm and his motion were all over the place and done.

 

2nd case in point:

Why was Repko allowed to hit away with the bases loaded yesterday in the late innings of that game. Repko is just up from Pawtucket batting with the bases loaded against a pitcher that is struggling with his control. With the count at 3-1, bases loaded late in the game and the Sox up by 2 runs at the time, Repko swings away. This is not a situation where a walk just gets you a base runner. This is a situation where a walk gets you an insurance run and keeps a rally going that can blow open the game. Repko swings at ball 4 and eventually makes out. While we can say that Repko should not have swung at ball 4, the decision should not have been left in Repko's hands. Give him the take sign there and be done with it.

 

I am not going to include today's play with Sweeney and Ross because I have no clue what happened there. Did Sweeney miss the sign? Was he supposed to protect on a hit and run play. Was it a run and hit play or was Ross stealing? It makes more sense that it was a hit and run but the whole thing was so poorly executed that I cannot tell what the play was supposed to be. So is this a missed sign, a sign not given or a lack of attention to detail and poor execution? I am confused enough on this one that I really can't conclude one vs the other.

 

I have yet to see baseball genius V make an appearance yet. In a macro sense this is sort of where people tend to form their opinions of V. Don't seem to ever see enough of genius V but sure do see plenty of loudmouth V.

 

However there is no question that Bard should have been pulled before he allowed the winning run. There is no question that Repko should have been given the take sign in yesterday's game.

[SCM33]

The issues that they never addressed existed prior to BV's arrival. The Red Sox refused to dump some contracts of some talented bad apples' date=' Beckett to name one. They had take some harsh action to send a messaage that was never sent. This would fester no matter whom they brought in as Manager[/quote']

 

Im not going to sit here and point fingers anymore. Everyone knows what I think and pretty much nobody agrees with me......so its not worth going round and round.

 

.......in the end though, there is clearly still issues in that clubhouse. I love Pedroia, but who the hell is he to tell Bobby V how things are done in Boston?

 

Apparently, not listening to your manager and finishing in third place for 2 straight years is "the way we go about our stuff around here".

 

Bobby V was brought in to be the ruling hand, but instead he looks like a buffoon. He is a puppet, just like Tito was......and soon Bobby V will, as Pedroia put it "He'll figure that out. The whole team is behind Youk."

 

How about everyone just stfu and concentrate on baseball and winning? How about that for once?

[example1]

Im not going to sit here and point fingers anymore. Everyone knows what I think and pretty much nobody agrees with me......so its not worth going round and round.

 

.......in the end though, there is clearly still issues in that clubhouse. I love Pedroia, but who the hell is he to tell Bobby V how things are done in Boston?

 

Apparently, not listening to your manager and finishing in third place for 2 straight years is "the way we go about our stuff around here".

 

Bobby V was brought in to be the ruling hand, but instead he looks like a buffoon. He is a puppet, just like Tito was......and soon Bobby V will, as Pedroia put it "He'll figure that out. The whole team is behind Youk."

 

How about everyone just stfu and concentrate on baseball and winning? How about that for once?

 

Pedroia is a one time rookie of the year (Valentine doesn't have one of those) and a former MVP (Valentine doesnt have one of those) with a WS ring (Valentine doesn't have one of those). He's played in for 5 or 6 years and knows the territory. Valentine doesn't seem to.

 

I'm not saying he has the right to say whatever he wants (he doesn't) but he's the consumate team player, a player that every other team and every other manager would want to have. If he doesn't think its a good idea to unnecessairly start s*** about the "passion" of a guy like Youkilis, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[jung]

Well I am sure I did not make it clear but I do agree with you Chin Music.

 

When I said this was going to work out for the Sox I did not mean to excuse the behavior. Two wrongs don't make a right. If Pedey or anybody else including Youk had a problem with what V said, discuss it with V. If you are not satisfied, discuss it further with V. As much as I like Pedey, he is not the public face of, the PR voice of the Sox or arbiter of "how we do things here."

 

I do wish V would be less terse as that holier than thou attitude of his gets in the way more often than not. Just a tiny bit more explanation and V might have left the media turds with nowhere to go and maybe Pedey and Youk would not have lurched so violently.

 

Now I happen to think this will work out for the Sox and said so because it gives them an opportunity to work through one of these and maybe do it better next time. It gives Pedey a chance to be perceived a certain way as the unofficial Sox captain by the other players. However I would be mighty disappointed if in these "discussions" between players and coaches that apparently have occurred as a result of this incident if the only thing discussed was V's comment to the media. V is the Manager. He is the guy the organization gave the job. Whether he was trying to light a fire under Youk or not, whether he meant what he said a certain way or actually meant it a different way, he is still the guy they gave the job.

 

Pedey is still a player and not the GM or owner of the Red Sox. I don't think Pedey has a platform to discuss "how we do things here".

 

V said he was trying to defend the player and Cafardo appears to concur. Since Cafardo was there and I was not I guess I will take Cafardo's word that V's comments were taken out of context and that in fact V was trying to defend Youk. Heck it would be better for Cafardo if it was the other way since reporters can always make more hay out of that kind of story. So again I am going to believe Cafardo.

 

I would prefer that V not be so exposed and I would prefer that if he is going to spend so much time in front of the klieg lights that he be a bit smarter and less terse. Heck it is not like he does not have the media time to be less terse. He has a radio spot here, a radio spot in NY. pre-game and post game pressers, and God help us, The Bobby Valentine Show" and commercial spots galore. I would like more emphasis on the team, on strategy and tactics and less of the Bobby V show. For one thing I have not been all that thrilled with the in game tactics and until Baseball Genius V shows up, I would prefer less of Sandwich Wrap King V, etc etc.

 

I am not a V fan. I am OK with what the Sox decided to do and believe that since there were no illusions about how V was going to handle players publicly, the players need to respect the decision the organization made.

[SCM33]

Pedroia is a one time rookie of the year (Valentine doesn't have one of those) and a former MVP (Valentine doesnt have one of those) with a WS ring (Valentine doesn't have one of those). He's played in for 5 or 6 years and knows the territory. Valentine doesn't seem to.

 

I'm not saying he has the right to say whatever he wants (he doesn't) but he's the consumate team player, a player that every other team and every other manager would want to have. If he doesn't think its a good idea to unnecessairly start s*** about the "passion" of a guy like Youkilis, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Valentine was brought in to shake things up.

 

If they dont like it, tough s***. Who knows....maybe Youkilis is one of the ones causing the problems behind closed doors.

 

For him to be ignorant enough to make a comment about the "way things are around here" after last season shows that maybe Pedroia doesnt know this territory as well as you think.

[Elktonnick]

Im not going to sit here and point fingers anymore. Everyone knows what I think and pretty much nobody agrees with me......so its not worth going round and round.

 

.......in the end though, there is clearly still issues in that clubhouse. I love Pedroia, but who the hell is he to tell Bobby V how things are done in Boston?

 

Apparently, not listening to your manager and finishing in third place for 2 straight years is "the way we go about our stuff around here".

 

Bobby V was brought in to be the ruling hand, but instead he looks like a buffoon. He is a puppet, just like Tito was......and soon Bobby V will, as Pedroia put it "He'll figure that out. The whole team is behind Youk."

 

How about everyone just stfu and concentrate on baseball and winning? How about that for once?

 

I agree with much of what you saidf except I think BV looks like a buffoon only to those who thought him one before his arrival. He can't say a thing without folks looking to blow it out of proportion.

 

To clean up the poison that exists in the Red sox clubhouse can't happen without someone getting offended. Just like you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

 

In my view Pedroia was more out of line then BV. I am also sure that despite his popularity with the fans. Pedroia can be one royal pain in the butt. His personality is great when the team is winning and things are going well. I am sure there are guys on the team who can only tolerate him in short doses.

 

My point is that a baseball team is twenty-five to forty highly competitive males who can get on each other nerves real easily. They all know why BV was brought in namely to change the status guo. There are a lot guys on that team who don't want to change so naturally they are PO'd.

 

It is going to take one ruthless SOB IMO to turn this team around. Ruthless in my mind is using every trick in the book. One strategy won't work. Someone once said that Attila the Hun leadership skills is fine if you are leading Huns. Well the Red Sox aren't Huns but they aren't the Vienna Boy's Choir either.

 

If these guys are so sensitive that they wretch from even a mild rebuke from their boss such as those that BV has uttered to date then they are really in sad shape. The problem is that everyone is judging BV by comparing him to Francona. Well judging by the past few years Francona's leadership skills weren't very effective now were they.

 

Red Sox fans and players must stop mourning Francona's departure. The reason he is no longer here lays fully with the players. They have no one to blame but themselves. Sabotaging BV won't bring Francona back but rather will only make the situation worse. IMHO. The sooner they realize it the better everything will be.

.

[Palodios]

Valentine was brought in to shake things up.

 

If they dont like it, tough s***. Who knows....maybe Youkilis is one of the ones causing the problems behind closed doors.

 

For him to be ignorant enough to make a comment about the "way things are around here" after last season shows that maybe Pedroia doesnt know this territory as well as you think.

 

Everything we know about Pedroia is that he is a pure and unadulterated baseball player. If Youk was stirring s*** up behind closed doors and causing problems off-the-field, Pedroia would not have said anything. I have mixed feelings about the situation, and I don't think Youk or BV is blameless. That being said, Pedroia had his teammate's back, and from where I am, that seems like the right thing to do.

[TeddyBallGame9]

Sign of the times - player tell manager how things are done. Sad. I really like Pedroia but he is NOT management.

[Elktonnick]

Everything we know about Pedroia is that he is a pure and unadulterated baseball player. If Youk was stirring s*** up behind closed doors and causing problems off-the-field' date=' Pedroia would not have said anything. I have mixed feelings about the situation, and I don't think Youk or BV is blameless. That being said, Pedroia had his teammate's back, and from where I am, that seems like the right thing to do.[/quote']

 

While I am not saying that Youk is that kind of guy but some "team mates " don't deserve having the backs covered. Of course I thinking of Manny not Youk when I write that just to make the point.

[jung]

One other thing that I just remembered that may or may not be relevant here.

 

When V finally wore out his welcome completely with the Mets, one of the things that got tossed around a good bit was V's involvement in 9/11 related charitable activities. One view was that he lost focus and in the end that cost him his manager's job.

 

We don't have a 9/11 for V to be spending his time with now but it appears to me that he is filling his plate again with a whole bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with hit and runs, pitch counts and over-shifts. In this case, these are all commercial enterprises that are filling V's plate. As I said above, I would really like less of loudmouth, Sandwich Wrap King V and way more Baseball Genius V. While I expected a good deal of the "noise" that comes with V, I did not expect one of the most concerted commercial efforts attached to a Managerial or Coaching job that I have seen in a long long time and maybe ever!

[Elktonnick]

One other thing that I just remembered that may or may not be relevant here.

 

When V finally wore out his welcome completely with the Mets, one of the things that got tossed around a good bit was V's involvement in 9/11 related charitable activities. One view was that he lost focus and in the end that cost him his manager's job.

 

We don't have a 9/11 for V to be spending his time with now but it appears to me that he is filling his plate again with a whole bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with hit and runs, pitch counts and over-shifts. In this case, these are all commercial enterprises that are filling V's plate. As I said above, I would really like less of loudmouth, Sandwich Wrap King V and way more Baseball Genius V. While I expected a good deal of the "noise" that comes with V, I did not expect one of the most concerted commercial efforts attached to a Managerial or Coaching job that I have seen in a long long time and maybe ever!

 

Jeez firing a guy because he spent too much time on 9/11 activities for a New York team. Is it little wonder that the Mets are one screwed up organization!

[TeddyBallGame9]

I agree with much of what you saidf except I think BV looks like a buffoon only to those who thought him one before his arrival. He can't say a thing without folks looking to blow it out of proportion.

 

To clean up the poison that exists in the Red sox clubhouse can't happen without someone getting offended. Just like you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

 

In my view Pedroia was more out of line then BV. I am also sure that despite his popularity with the fans. Pedroia can be one royal pain in the butt. His personality is great when the team is winning and things are going well. I am sure there are guys on the team who can only tolerate him in short doses.

 

My point is that a baseball team is twenty-five to forty highly competitive males who can get on each other nerves real easily. They all know why BV was brought in namely to change the status guo. There are a lot guys on that team who don't want to change so naturally they are PO'd.

 

It is going to take one ruthless SOB IMO to turn this team around. Ruthless in my mind is using every trick in the book. One strategy won't work. Someone once said that Attila the Hun leadership skills is fine if you are leading Huns. Well the Red Sox aren't Huns but they aren't the Vienna Boy's Choir either.

 

If these guys are so sensitive that they wretch from even a mild rebuke from their boss such as those that BV has uttered to date then they are really in sad shape. The problem is that everyone is judging BV by comparing him to Francona. Well judging by the past few years Francona's leadership skills weren't very effective now were they.

 

Red Sox fans and players must stop mourning Francona's departure. The reason he is no longer here lays fully with the players. They have no one to blame but themselves. Sabotaging BV won't bring Francona back but rather will only make the situation worse. IMHO. The sooner they realize it the better everything will be.

.

Nailed it!!

[TeddyBallGame9]

One other thing that I just remembered that may or may not be relevant here.

 

When V finally wore out his welcome completely with the Mets, one of the things that got tossed around a good bit was V's involvement in 9/11 related charitable activities. One view was that he lost focus and in the end that cost him his manager's job.

 

 

Working on charitable activities after 9/11 seems far more important to me than managing a baseball team! No?

[jung]

Working on charitable activities after 9/11 seems far more important to me than managing a baseball team! No?

 

Agreed but if that is what you want to do and you cannot do the one without damaging the other, quit your job and have at it. If you are collecting that paycheck you have a responsibility to your employer. If not, don't be surprised if your employer gets tired of cutting those paychecks if he is not getting what he is paying for.

 

Your employer had no responsibility to pay for and indulge your desire to fill your plate to overload with things other than your job and if your job suffers for it, don't expect your employer to continue the paychecks.

[TeddyBallGame9]

Agreed but if that is what you want to do and you cannot do the one without damaging the other, quit your job and have at it. If you are collecting that paycheck you have a responsibility to your employer. If not, don't be surprised if your employer gets tired of cutting those paychecks if he is not getting what he is paying for.

 

Your employer had no responsibility to pay for and indulge your desire to fill your plate to overload with things other than your job and if your job suffers for it, don't expect your employer to continue the paychecks.

 

Wasn't there, of course but I'm quite sure he was handling both fine. Do you really think managing MLB makes a whole lot of difference today in how a club does?

[jung]

Wasn't there, of course but I'm quite sure he was handling both fine. Do you really think managing MLB makes a whole lot of difference today in how a club does?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about here. you are "quite sure he was handling both just fine". How the hell would you know how his employers viewed how he was doing his job? I certainly don't know but unless you have some inside track that you appear to be denying here, you don't either!

 

He got fired....people closer to it than either of us commented at the time that in part he got fired because he got defocused from the job and in part he was defocused from the job because of his 9/11 activities. How much impact a Manager has on baseball outcomes has nothing to do with it.

 

Employers make decisions about whether or not they are getting value out of their employees all the time. The more millions somebody is paid, the more scrutiny they will come under. The mere fact that a Manager often makes millions suggests he has something to do with the outcomes whether they are game to game outcomes or season to season outcomes. Regardless it is still the employer that decides what is relevant to a decision to hire or fire.

 

One piece of evidence worth considering is the general lack of longevity of baseball managers. It suggests that the people that pay their salaries think they have something to do with outcomes or they would not change them with such regularity nor would they pay them so handsomely.

[463]

Moron. a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.

 

Pretty much sums up Bobby V.

[ORS]

Im not going to sit here and point fingers anymore. Everyone knows what I think and pretty much nobody agrees with me......so its not worth going round and round.

 

.......in the end though, there is clearly still issues in that clubhouse. I love Pedroia, but who the hell is he to tell Bobby V how things are done in Boston?

 

Apparently, not listening to your manager and finishing in third place for 2 straight years is "the way we go about our stuff around here".

 

Bobby V was brought in to be the ruling hand, but instead he looks like a buffoon. He is a puppet, just like Tito was......and soon Bobby V will, as Pedroia put it "He'll figure that out. The whole team is behind Youk."

 

How about everyone just stfu and concentrate on baseball and winning? How about that for once?

 

Bobby V looks like a buffoon because of all the stupid s*** he keeps saying to the media. He has no filter between his brain and mouth. If he thinks it, he says it......then he has to say something else to fix it. His authority is limited to how he runs the team, and does not extend into him having carte blanche with his opinions in the court of public opinion. Pedroia's response in no way challenged BV's legitimate authority, he didn't say what he said in response to a rule established by BV. He responded to a public comment.

 

I like that he said what he said. He showed some leadership sticking up for a teammate, and he was right, IMO, in that concerns over commitment to the team should be handled internally, not in the media. The hubbub over Valentine's comment is that he went public with this opinion, and when Pedroia said that's not how we do things here, that's what he's talking about.

[TeddyBallGame9]

I have no idea what you are talking about here. you are "quite sure he was handling both just fine". How the hell would you know how his employers viewed how he was doing his job? I certainly don't know but unless you have some inside track that you appear to be denying here, you don't either!

 

He got fired....people closer to it than either of us commented at the time that in part he got fired because he got defocused from the job and in part he was defocused from the job because of his 9/11 activities. How much impact a Manager has on baseball outcomes has nothing to do with it.

 

Employers make decisions about whether or not they are getting value out of their employees all the time. The more millions somebody is paid, the more scrutiny they will come under. The mere fact that a Manager often makes millions suggests he has something to do with the outcomes whether they are game to game outcomes or season to season outcomes. Regardless it is still the employer that decides what is relevant to a decision to hire or fire.

 

One piece of evidence worth considering is the general lack of longevity of baseball managers. It suggests that the people that pay their salaries think they have something to do with outcomes or they would not change them with such regularity nor would they pay them so handsomely.

 

I'm saying that managers are basically inconsequential in winning or losing at the MLB level.

 

Sure, owners fire managers all the time because it is EASIER than firing 25 players!! Has nothing to do with their salaries or, at best, very little.

[witty_alias]

I'm saying that managers are basically inconsequential in winning or losing at the MLB level.

 

Sure, owners fire managers all the time because it is EASIER than firing 25 players!! Has nothing to do with their salaries or, at best, very little.

 

Managers play a bigger role in MLB than most people think. Baseball players are fragile creatures historically and must be managed with a certain psychology tailored to each player. It is the job of the manager to keep the teams mind set together for the long and tedious season.

 

Lineups and pitching decisions are handled by the manager ultimately (with a few exceptions) and these things play a HUGE role in the outcome of seasons. Sure the manger can’t turn a double play or hit a curve but don’t underestimate their ability to control the outcome of a game/season.

[Bellhorn04]

Managers play a bigger role in MLB than most people think. Baseball players are fragile creatures historically and must be managed with a certain psychology tailored to each player. It is the job of the manager to keep the teams mind set together for the long and tedious season.

 

Lineups and pitching decisions are handled by the manager ultimately (with a few exceptions) and these things play a HUGE role in the outcome of seasons. Sure the manger can’t turn a double play or hit a curve but don’t underestimate their ability to control the outcome of a game/season.

 

I don't necessarily disagree. However, the problem is that the value of the manager is an unmeasurable intangible. You can't conclusively prove that a manager affected the outcome of a single game, even if they made what everyone agrees was a brilliant or boneheaded move on a key play. Because you're left with the unknown quantity of what would have happened if the other move was made.

[jung]

It is often far easier to see managerial decisions play themselves out. It is not impossible. We had two of them in just two days that had consequences that were directly related.

 

When V let Repko swing away with a 3-1 count against a struggling pitcher with the bases loaded, Repko swung at ball 4. A walk there would have gotten an extra run in without question and would have seen the Sox continue the inning with only 1 out as Repko eventually went down. Not only did we not score the run but Repko became the second out of the inning.

 

When V left Bard in yesterday, he walked in the winning run. You can muse that Albers would have let the entire Rays team bat around but it did not matter. They only needed one run to win and they got it in a situation where Bard was clearly spent and needed to come out of the game. The Sox eventually won the game on Sunday and lost the game on Monday. However both of those decisions clearly had consequences that played into run totals. Decisions that effect run totals that directly are not hidden under the "what would have happened otherwise" possibility. Had the Rays come back and won the Sunday game we would have pointed to the lost run or runs of the Repko inning as very telling to the outcome of the game.

 

If the 7th inning on Monday was clean if the Rays scored no runs in that inning, and the Sox went on to win that game 1-0 then having kept the Rays off the board in the 7th would have been considered very important. In fact it was very important in that it allowed the Rays the single run they needed to win.

[jung]

It is often far easier to see managerial decisions play themselves out. It is not impossible. We had two of them in just two days that had consequences that were directly related.

 

When V let Repko swing away with a 3-1 count against a struggling pitcher with the bases loaded, Repko swung at ball 4. A walk there would have gotten an extra run in without question and would have seen the Sox continue the inning with only 1 out as Repko eventually went down. Not only did we not score the run but Repko became the second out of the inning.

 

When V left Bard in yesterday, he walked in the winning run. You can muse that Albers would have let the entire Rays team bat around but it did not matter. They only needed one run to win and they got it in a situation where Bard was clearly spent and needed to come out of the game. The Sox eventually won the game on Sunday and lost the game on Monday. However both of those decisions clearly had consequences that played into run totals. Decisions that effect run totals that directly are not hidden under the "what would have happened otherwise" possibility. Had the Rays come back and won the Sunday game we would have pointed to the lost run or runs of the Repko inning as very telling to the outcome of the game.

 

If the 7th inning on Monday was clean if the Rays scored no runs in that inning, and the Sox went on to win that game 1-0 then having kept the Rays off the board in the 7th would have been considered very important. In fact it was very important in that it allowed the Rays the single run they needed to win.

[Spitball]

Those of us old enough to remember the 1978 collapse witnessed absolutely horrible, terrible, stupid managing.

 

By late July of '78, Don Zimmer had the Red Sox in first place by nearly 10 games over the Brewers and 14 over the Yankees...but he almost single-handedly blew it. He refused to rest veterans who ran out of gas going into the dog days of August. He over pitched Bill Campbell. He let an injured Butch Hobson rack up 45 errors at third base. He hated Bill Lee and did not use him properly. For similar reasons, he got rid of Bernie Carbo. And, he opted to start minor leaguer Bobby Sprowl in the final game of the Yankee series known as the Boston Massacre. Why Sprowl when Lee was available?

 

A win to avoid that sweep would have meant sooo much for the team and us fans. Plus, Boston wouldn't have ended the season tied with the Yankees. Don Zimmer made a difference...a negative difference that still bugs the crap out of me.

[Elktonnick]

Those of us old enough to remember the 1978 collapse witnessed absolutely horrible, terrible, stupid managing.

 

By late July of '78, Don Zimmer had the Red Sox in first place by nearly 10 games over the Brewers and 14 over the Yankees...but he almost single-handedly blew it. He refused to rest veterans who ran out of gas going into the dog days of August. He over pitched Bill Campbell. He let an injured Butch Hobson rack up 45 errors at third base. He hated Bill Lee and did not use him properly. For similar reasons, he got rid of Bernie Carbo. And, he opted to start minor leaguer Bobby Sprowl in the final game of the Yankee series known as the Boston Massacre. Why Sprowl when Lee was available?

 

A win to avoid that sweep would have meant sooo much for the team and us fans. Plus, Boston wouldn't have ended the season tied with the Yankees. Don Zimmer made a difference...a negative difference that still bugs the crap out of me.

 

One of the best quotes ever was from Bill Lee who said something like "Don Zimmer is a gerbil who thinks he is a hamster."

[a700hitter]

Those of us old enough to remember the 1978 collapse witnessed absolutely horrible, terrible, stupid managing.

 

By late July of '78, Don Zimmer had the Red Sox in first place by nearly 10 games over the Brewers and 14 over the Yankees...but he almost single-handedly blew it. He refused to rest veterans who ran out of gas going into the dog days of August. He over pitched Bill Campbell. He let an injured Butch Hobson rack up 45 errors at third base. He hated Bill Lee and did not use him properly. For similar reasons, he got rid of Bernie Carbo. And, he opted to start minor leaguer Bobby Sprowl in the final game of the Yankee series known as the Boston Massacre. Why Sprowl when Lee was available?

 

A win to avoid that sweep would have meant sooo much for the team and us fans. Plus, Boston wouldn't have ended the season tied with the Yankees. Don Zimmer made a difference...a negative difference that still bugs the crap out of me.

I remember it all too well. Yaz reportedly begged Zimmer to start Lee in that Yankee series. Lee was a Yankee killer.

[witty_alias]

I don't necessarily disagree. However' date=' the problem is that the value of the manager is an unmeasurable intangible. You can't conclusively prove that a manager affected the outcome of a single game, even if they made what everyone agrees was a brilliant or boneheaded move on a key play. Because you're left with the unknown quantity of what would have happened if the other move was made.[/quote']

 

Right, you cannot quantify managerial wins with statistics. There is no Bill James equation for W’s and L’s for managers. But managers dictate the clubhouse atmosphere and in a lot of cases spend more time than anyone analyzing player ability, behavior and roles to ensure production and wins.

 

Managing game situations is where we see how well a manger knows his team’s capability of playing successfully in times necessary to secure a win or play from behind.

 

I don’t believe Bobby Valentine is the right guy for this job and we will see him work himself out of a job he never should have had.

[jung]

God I wish you guys did not bring up THAT year. I have such horrendous memories of that year. There are some of them that I can no longer bring myself to repeat and in fact refuse to repeat nor bring up in discussion.

[Gringo]

Im not going to sit here and point fingers anymore. Everyone knows what I think and pretty much nobody agrees with me......so its not worth going round and round.

 

.......in the end though, there is clearly still issues in that clubhouse. I love Pedroia, but who the hell is he to tell Bobby V how things are done in Boston?

 

Apparently, not listening to your manager and finishing in third place for 2 straight years is "the way we go about our stuff around here".

 

Bobby V was brought in to be the ruling hand, but instead he looks like a buffoon. He is a puppet, just like Tito was......and soon Bobby V will, as Pedroia put it "He'll figure that out. The whole team is behind Youk."

 

How about everyone just stfu and concentrate on baseball and winning? How about that for once?

 

I agree with this. You know, it's possible that Youk HAS been slacking off this spring, and BV and other staff have noticed it. BV was brought in to break players out of their little comfort zone of running the asylum. So he called out Youk for his slow start and (possible) diminished effort. I'm fine with that.

 

I DON"T like his backtracking and half assed apologizing. Basically he's let Pedroia scold him and now he looks weak.

 

What we just witnessed was the first and perhaps the last power struggle of the Bobby V era. And the players won.

 

Can you imagine a player on the Tigers dissing Leyland like Pedey dissed BV?

 

Incredible.

 

Bobby V=Tito 2.0

[jung]

Well in a sense, you can say that the Sox organization has done it again. They left Tito a lame duck manager for the 2011 season and has basically done the same thing in just offering V a two year contract. The Sox won't care one bit if they dump V after this season and eat the last year of his contract which may not be guaranteed anyway. The players know V has very little power in the organization because of the term of his contract.

 

Contracts and money mean everything in baseball. You make this much and I make that much more than you means I have more power than you. It is that simple and is looked at very seriously by the players. A two year managers contract impresses nobody and is the equivalent of leaving Tito a lame duck in 2011.