Valentine's Big Mouth

[ibot2much]

It was a bad season for Francona last year but it doesn't negate the World Series wins. How many major league managers have won more than 2 titles? Not many. If Bobby V is around long enough to win 2 with the Sox it will be miraculous.

 

Yea, you are right... it was a bad season for Francona......and he didn't have a big mouth. Nobody said that the ugliness of last year negated what had been done. The interesting point is WHY it happened after all that Francona did to take care of the team. Most successful managers are able to go out on the top----Francona got dropped to the pits by the team he cared for and did so much for.

[The Boomer]

It was a bad season for Francona last year but it doesn't negate the World Series wins. How many major league managers have won more than 2 titles? Not many. If Bobby V is around long enough to win 2 with the Sox it will be miraculous.

 

It's instructive to compare how things were handled in Atlanta vs. Boston. Both epic collapses, but Atlanta has simply put it behind them and moved on. Boston (including the team, the FO, and the fans) has not.

 

As an old colleague of mine used to say: "If it ain't fix, don't broke it."

 

We'll see if either approach works during the actual season.

[Bellhorn04]

Yea' date=' you are right... it was a bad season for Francona......and he didn't have a big mouth. Nobody said that the ugliness of last year negated what had been done. The interesting point is WHY it happened after all that Francona did to take care of the team. [b']Most successful managers are able to go out on the top----Francona got dropped to the pits by the team he cared for and did so much for.[/b]

 

Actually I read Torre's biography a little while ago and I thought there were some striking similarities between his exit from the Yankees and Francona's from the Red Sox.

[ibot2much]

Actually I read Torre's biography a little while ago and I thought there were some striking similarities between his exit from the Yankees and Francona's from the Red Sox.

 

Yea, I read it too and have always respected JT. He was at least able to get another managing job in a big market team and it seemed as though his team didn't drive him out, but rather the FO's preference for somebody else.

 

Francona's leaving was far less graceful AND nobody took him on, not even his former GM

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I like how people like to defend Tito with the whole "he won 2 world series" defense. He didn't single handedly win those 2 world series. The 2004 season was shaping up to be just another s*** year until there was a trade that solidified the team and then a 10 game win streak. That all seemed to get them in motion, and even then during the playoffs they were basically eliminated until the Yankee's choked hard and that put the momentum in the Sox favor. 2007 had a great team, basically the complete package with good pitching, hitting, and defense. The rest of the years were pretty much lackluster. Halfway through Francona's tenure here it seemed to me like the inmates started running the asylum, with Manny being an idiot, Beckett having to be babied, all this crap last year.

 

Really, I can't say I'd be convinced that the Sox would of been worse off over the last 8 years with someone else as manager. I personally think they would of been better but I don't know that of course. In the end I think Francona was brought in here to be a warm body to throw out at the media, to take questions and answer them as PR friendly as possible, to take the front office's orders, and eventually that act ran dry. He's gone and now what they need is someone who isn't going to treat these players like children.

[jung]

I totally agree about the need for a Manager that does not treat players like children. Although I am not sure that Tito was guilty of that. For the most part wouldn't you say that he gave them a tremendous amount of responsibility for themselves and the players ended up stabbing him in the back with it?

 

V seems more about riding players publicly. V's take on what is or is not criticism is utter ******** and a means for V to rationalize doing what he wants to do. Just because something is truthful does not mean it no longer fits into the category of criticism. V's take is that as long is he is being truthful about players he is not being critical of them when he makes these public pronouncements about this player or that player.

 

There is constructive criticism for example. Constructive criticism is often based in truth but it is criticism none the less. I fail to understand why V does not appear disposed to take up his "truths" with the player and the player's coach instead of putting his business in the street.

 

The point being I fail to see why V has to put his business or in this case Red Sox business in the street seemingly every chance he gets.

[User Name]

You take the good with the bad here: Valentine is a better in-game tactician and will hold players more accountable for their actions, but he'll wear on the players and FO with his insistence of airing dirty laundry at every possible turn.

 

And for the point that we really couldn't have done worse than Francona the last eight seasons, well we could have had Dusty Baker, Grady Little or Ozzie Guillen.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

You take the good with the bad here: Valentine is a better in-game tactician and will hold players more accountable for their actions, but he'll wear on the players and FO with his insistence of airing dirty laundry at every possible turn.

 

And for the point that we really couldn't have done worse than Francona the last eight seasons, well we could have had Dusty Baker, Grady Little or Ozzie Guillen.

 

We'll, you got me with that last paragraph

 

But I agree with you. I think Valentine is better in game and will hold players accountable, and I like that, but I think he will start to talk a bit too much. There needs to be a balance.

[jung]

V is already talking to much. So "will start" is actually "has started".

[seabeachfred]

I like how people like to defend Tito with the whole "he won 2 world series" defense. He didn't single handedly win those 2 world series. The 2004 season was shaping up to be just another s*** year until there was a trade that solidified the team and then a 10 game win streak. That all seemed to get them in motion, and even then during the playoffs they were basically eliminated until the Yankee's choked hard and that put the momentum in the Sox favor. 2007 had a great team, basically the complete package with good pitching, hitting, and defense. The rest of the years were pretty much lackluster. Halfway through Francona's tenure here it seemed to me like the inmates started running the asylum, with Manny being an idiot, Beckett having to be babied, all this crap last year.

 

Really, I can't say I'd be convinced that the Sox would of been worse off over the last 8 years with someone else as manager. I personally think they would of been better but I don't know that of course. In the end I think Francona was brought in here to be a warm body to throw out at the media, to take questions and answer them as PR friendly as possible, to take the front office's orders, and eventually that act ran dry. He's gone and now what they need is someone who isn't going to treat these players like children.

 

Well said Big Papi; I've been saying the same thing all winter. Personally, I think Francona cost us three more division titles and at least one WS appearance. His strength was handling the personalities and egos of the players, keeping the pressure and press away from them and running a spirited clubhouse. It all unraveled last year, but as my banned friend Muggah so aptly put it, once the players understood fully that he was little more than an errand boy for Epstein and pretty much did what he was told, the game was up and it became evident that his lack of managerial acumen in the dugout was now glaring and he had nothing to fall back on. The proof in the pudding is that despite two WS Titles no team offered him a managing job after the season including his old boss and I really think he might have trouble landing another one. Then, to be honest about it, I never was a Francona man and believed his talent in the dugout was pretty pathetic.

[jung]

Tito was never a good in game Manager. It always seemed to me that Tito had a set approach for situations but was not a situational Manager in the sense of understanding the specific nuances of particular situations as they developed and managing to that. It was almost like pitch count extended to other aspects of the game. Pitcher has thrown this many pitches he is coming out period.

 

Then when Tito would sort of throw you a curve he left you wondering what the hell he saw that led him to go that way! Really was a very frustrating experience in many ways.

[seabeachfred]

Tito was never a good in game Manager. It always seemed to me that Tito had a set approach for situations but was not a situational Manager in the sense of understanding the specific nuances of particular situations as they developed and managing to that. It was almost like pitch count extended to other aspects of the game. Pitcher has thrown this many pitches he is coming out period.

 

Then when Tito would sort of throw you a curve he left you wondering what the hell he saw that led him to go that way! Really was a very frustrating experience in many ways.

 

Jung, it is good to see that I am not alone at all in categorizing Francona as a field manager. My problem is that I really disliked him as a skipper and always worried that my personal feelings would color my opinion of him. You try to be fair but sometimes your bias just pours out. I always gave him credit for running a good clubhouse, keeping the pressure off his players and the press at bay. However, in the dugout he was exactly what you said he was. I never thought much of him after he insisted Beckett would have to pitch seven innings in that second game of the 2008 ALCS even though the guy was hurt and struggling all year. He cost us that series, and his stubborness in never pinch hitting for Varitek during his collapse in the regular 2008 season cost us the division and home field advantage as well in the ALCS. He never learned to manage on the fly when the situation changed from his pre-game plan.

[SoxSport]

It's instructive to compare how things were handled in Atlanta vs. Boston. Both epic collapses, but Atlanta has simply put it behind them and moved on. Boston (including the team, the FO, and the fans) has not.

 

As an old colleague of mine used to say: "If it ain't fix, don't broke it."

 

We'll see if either approach works during the actual season.

 

The difference is Atlanta is out of the NY-Boston tabloid media sphere.

[SoxSport]

Tito was never a good in game Manager. It always seemed to me that Tito had a set approach for situations but was not a situational Manager in the sense of understanding the specific nuances of particular situations as they developed and managing to that. It was almost like pitch count extended to other aspects of the game. Pitcher has thrown this many pitches he is coming out period.

 

Then when Tito would sort of throw you a curve he left you wondering what the hell he saw that led him to go that way! Really was a very frustrating experience in many ways.

 

Tito was an intuitive manager, and not a very smart one. He did not play percentages. Part of the problem is he had one ear listening to the Front Office, and I'm not convinced those young guys were interpreting the saber data properly. I don't think any of them have technical degrees. It's easy to misinterpret data when you didn't major in math.

 

Tito was a failure in Philly with a lesser team. He then went to Oakland and became a bench coach for Billy Beane. He was hired in Boston to be the same FO guy. Bringing V in to replace him indicates a power shift to me--to the manager. I believe that was intentional.

[a700hitter]

I like how people like to defend Tito with the whole "he won 2 world series" defense. He didn't single handedly win those 2 world series. The 2004 season was shaping up to be just another s*** year until there was a trade that solidified the team and then a 10 game win streak. That all seemed to get them in motion, and even then during the playoffs they were basically eliminated until the Yankee's choked hard and that put the momentum in the Sox favor. 2007 had a great team, basically the complete package with good pitching, hitting, and defense. The rest of the years were pretty much lackluster. Halfway through Francona's tenure here it seemed to me like the inmates started running the asylum, with Manny being an idiot, Beckett having to be babied, all this crap last year.

 

Really, I can't say I'd be convinced that the Sox would of been worse off over the last 8 years with someone else as manager. I personally think they would of been better but I don't know that of course. In the end I think Francona was brought in here to be a warm body to throw out at the media, to take questions and answer them as PR friendly as possible, to take the front office's orders, and eventually that act ran dry. He's gone and now what they need is someone who isn't going to treat these players like children.

One Division Championship with the talent that he had throughout the 8 years is no BFD.

[SCM33]

Baseball manager is the most overrated coaching position in sports.

 

If the players dont like you, they will tank and get your ass out of town like they did to Tito last year. Either way the players are getting guaranteed money regardless of the outcome. The manager however, is on the chopping block just about every year.

 

A baseball manager in the American League fills out the lineup card and manages the bullpen. Thats all they do.

 

Drinking in the clubhouse is not the managers fault, its the players fault. A baseball manager is like politics. They walk a thin line, because if they flex their muscles too much the players will bring him down and he will be replaced. He is just a number.

[a700hitter]

This Durango is parked in the lot at my condo.

 

[ATTACH]821[/ATTACH]

[User Name]

Part of the problem is he had one ear listening to the Front Office' date=' and I'm not convinced those young guys were interpreting the saber data properly. I don't think any of them have technical degrees. It's easy to misinterpret data when you didn't major in math.[/quote']

 

That's completely and absolutely absurd. The Red Sox (and probably every other team in the Majors) has a paid team assembled to manage and interpret player data, and those guys do have "math degrees". In the Red Sox case, we're talking about Bill f***ing James, the guy responsible for bringing sabermetrics out to the mainstream.

 

The one that keeps misinterpreting this stuff is you, and like a broken record to boot, no matter how many times you're corrected.

[jung]

Bringing V in to replace him indicates a power shift to me--to the manager. I believe that was intentional.

 

I can buy that....although I don't see BC or his underhenchmen as having the same sort of organizational horsepower as Theo had and even Theo in my view remained under the influence of LL for the entirety of his career here.

 

However these Baseball Operations guys look like a bunch of high school seniors. I can't see how they would be able to wield much authority or will even over Tito if he was still here.

 

I think we will learn a good deal by following the Iggy story. If V gets his way Iggy is here and we have our answer.

 

V is dictating that the pitchers throw ground ball outs so V has a built in rational for keeping Iggy here. As others have indicated if Cook ends up in the 4 hole, Iggy here at the start of the season may start to have the look of inevitability.

[Spudboy]

I totally agree about the need for a Manager that does not treat players like children. Although I am not sure that Tito was guilty of that. For the most part wouldn't you say that he gave them a tremendous amount of responsibility for themselves and the players ended up stabbing him in the back with it?

 

V seems more about riding players publicly. V's take on what is or is not criticism is utter ******** and a means for V to rationalize doing what he wants to do. Just because something is truthful does not mean it no longer fits into the category of criticism. V's take is that as long is he is being truthful about players he is not being critical of them when he makes these public pronouncements about this player or that player.

 

There is constructive criticism for example. Constructive criticism is often based in truth but it is criticism none the less. I fail to understand why V does not appear disposed to take up his "truths" with the player and the player's coach instead of putting his business in the street.

 

The point being I fail to see why V has to put his business or in this case Red Sox business in the street seemingly every chance he gets.

 

Maybe he is an attention whore?

 

Or maybe he has deep seeded feelings of inadequacy do to having a small penis?

 

Who knows?

[Spudboy]

You take the good with the bad here: Valentine is a better in-game tactician and will hold players more accountable for their actions, but he'll wear on the players and FO with his insistence of airing dirty laundry at every possible turn.

 

And for the point that we really couldn't have done worse than Francona the last eight seasons, well we could have had Dusty Baker, Grady Little or Ozzie Guillen.

 

V is already talking to much. So "will start" is actually "has started".

 

Yup to both posts.

 

But I will say this. He sure makes things interesting.

 

I'll also say this, I always admired "Francoma".

[Spudboy]

This Durango is parked in the lot at my condo.

 

[ATTACH]821[/ATTACH]

 

 

??????

 

 

How is this relevant?

[Spudboy]

That's completely and absolutely absurd. The Red Sox (and probably every other team in the Majors) has a paid team assembled to manage and interpret player data, and those guys do have "math degrees". In the Red Sox case, we're talking about Bill f***ing James, the guy responsible for bringing sabermetrics out to the mainstream.

 

The one that keeps misinterpreting this stuff is you, and like a broken record to boot, no matter how many times you're corrected.

 

Please calm down. Let's not get into a s*** storm over Sabermetrics.

 

Just drop it. Okay?

[The Boomer]

That's completely and absolutely absurd. The Red Sox (and probably every other team in the Majors) has a paid team assembled to manage and interpret player data, and those guys do have "math degrees". In the Red Sox case, we're talking about Bill f***ing James, the guy responsible for bringing sabermetrics out to the mainstream.

 

The one that keeps misinterpreting this stuff is you, and like a broken record to boot, no matter how many times you're corrected.

 

This is the guy who runs the sabr group for the Sox. Math undergrad and Harvard MBA. 10 years at IBM.

 

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=47

 

Also a Canadian.

[mvp 78]

One Division Championship with the talent that he had throughout the 8 years is no BFD.

 

How many division titles does BV have?

[User Name]

Please calm down. Let's not get into a s*** storm over Sabermetrics.

 

Just drop it. Okay?

 

Just calling a spade a spade "brah".

[User Name]

This is the guy who runs the sabr group for the Sox. Math undergrad and Harvard MBA. 10 years at IBM.

 

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=47

 

Also a Canadian.

 

Thank you, a much more eloquent response and less conducive to shitstorming.

[Spudboy]

Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/03/24/power_struggle_between_bobby_valentine_and_ben_cherington_may_weaken_red_sox/

 

Interesting observations by Chris Gasper.

[Spudboy]

Just calling a spade a spade "brah".

 

I understand. But we know you can do that with a little more diplomacy, can't you?

 

For the record, I am not a huge fan of what I call an "Actuarial" approach to building a winning roster. It's not that I do not understand Saber metrics. I just believe that some of these measures are flawed and based on subjective analysis. I figure if these metrics are valid, then the subjective assessment made while simply watching a player perform must be at the very least, equally valid.

 

In the end, I believe that a combination of all these ingredients are necessary.

 

Carry on.

[Spudboy]

This is the guy who runs the sabr group for the Sox. Math undergrad and Harvard MBA. 10 years at IBM.

 

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=47

 

Also a Canadian.

 

Good post Boomer. Thank you.

 

This guy even looks like a Geek! I find this amusingly reassuring.