Valentine's Big Mouth

[Bellhorn04]

I was a Tito fan. Personally I think it's much too early in the game to judge Valentine one way or the other. With regard to what he revealed about his talk with Beckett, I don't see it as a big deal. He said Beckett was pissed off about his remarks about taking a long time between pitches. I think we already knew that. He also said they had a long conversation after that and it went pretty well.

 

Beckett should be able to handle what Valentine said. The guy is making 17 million a year.

[a700hitter]

I call ********. The previous administration was the second most successful team during their tenure. Their approach proved, overall, to be successful. You are making too much out of 2011 and ignoring the rest of the data.

 

Your blind faith in Valentines method is concerning and reassuring at the same time. It is concerning because it means we are going to have to hear about the gospel of Bobby V and transparency all season, but reassuring because it means the hiring did what it was supposed to by placating the angry mob who were focused on bringing accountability and retribution for the 2011 season--even if player misconduct wasn't the main factor in the September death spiral. I guess from now on I will just nod and say "yes, yes, Bobby V will whip all of the entitled losers into shape or sit them, even if they make 20m a year. And when those players are back on the field we can all revel in their reformed ways and new personalities, masterfully crafted by the inventor of the wrap sandwich.

 

I'm sure Beckett is done being Beckett and Crawford has lost the stubborn and private sides of himself that made him successful in the first place.

I really don't know what point you are trying to make with this. There is so much hyperbole in this post that I am not sure what you mean. First, let's not minimize 2011. It was the worst September collapse in Red Sox history, possibly in all MLB history. Old guys like me and SBF never saw anything like it. 1978 and 1951 (if Fred remembers it) pale in comparison to 2011. Let's not forget that the Giants were cheating in 1951.

 

Who is this angry mob that you keep referencing? Did the Occupy Boston protest pass by Fenway at some point with placards? If there was an angry mob, it was the Red Sox owners and investors. They were surely very unhappy that the excellent franchise that they built up over 10 years took such a hit to its reputation in a period of 1 month. Heads had to roll and they did, and last that I looked there have been no angry gatherings on Yawkey Way except in the executive offices.

[ibot2much]

I was never a BV fan and was amazed when the media began to kick around his name as a potential manager.....evern more amazed when it happened. BUT....the front office knew what they were getting as far as his "big mouth", accepted the BV that you knew was coming in and apparently welcomed it. If they did not want the team problems/issues hung out there in public, it would not have happened.

 

It did happen.... repeatedly so I have to think the big boys were not in agreement with the shield of silence of Francona once it resulted in what was the end of his era.

[a700hitter]

And if you think it is a good thing to have players pissed off or benches, just remember how things ended with Manny Ramirez. The Sox had to pay a good portion of his salary and move prospects to get anything decent in return while he refused to play and created his own forms of drama. Don't pretend that players have only a choice between playing full tilt or sitting silently while being abused by the media. Other options include but are not limited to sabotaging the team and tell-all exposes about the ten, with plenty in between.

The only extended period that Manny behaved himself was after the Sox placed him on waivers and no one wanted him and then they offered to tear up his contract and set him free. He basically shut his mouth after that and didn't start his BS act until 2006. They should do the same with Crawford. All the Manny enabling after 2005 never worked. He got worse and worse and basically quit on the team. They hushed up everything including an assault.

 

Finally, saying that someone didn't return your call is not exactly dragging your name through the mud. People who think that it is need to get some perspective.

[a700hitter]

I was never a BV fan and was amazed when the media began to kick around his name as a potential manager.....evern more amazed when it happened. BUT....the front office knew what they were getting as far as his "big mouth", accepted the BV that you knew was coming in and apparently welcomed it. If they did not want the team problems/issues hung out there in public, it would not have happened.

 

It did happen.... repeatedly so I have to think the big boys were not in agreement with the shield of silence of Francona once it resulted in what was the end of his era.

I never liked Bobby V, but I do respect his baseball knowledge. He is a better tactical game manager than Tito, and the Sox could have used that in 2011. Tito gave away a lot of games IMO, especially with his 7 run rule approach to starting pitching. Others may disagree, but I think most people saw him as a poor game tactician. We only needed to win 1 or 2 more games last year. A good game manager could have made the difference. Tito's managerial strength was in managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Once he could no longer do that, he offered nothing as manager. They have gone in the other direction with Bobby V. Most people won't like him, but players don't have to like him. Everyone hated Earl Weaver. Almost everyone, including his biggest stars, hated Billy Martin. La Russa wasn't universally loved either, nor was Ozzie G. I like it better if people hate the manager, because I am always critical of the manager during a game. Everyone, including me, loved Tito, so when I would criticize him I would get a lot of s*** for it. The first few times I mentioned the 7 run rule people were all over me for it.

[FredLynn]

I call ********. The previous administration was the second most successful team during their tenure. Their approach proved, overall, to be successful. You are making too much out of 2011 and ignoring the rest of the data.

 

Your blind faith in Valentines method is concerning and reassuring at the same time. It is concerning because it means we are going to have to hear about the gospel of Bobby V and transparency all season, but reassuring because it means the hiring did what it was supposed to by placating the angry mob who were focused on bringing accountability and retribution for the 2011 season--even if player misconduct wasn't the main factor in the September death spiral. I guess from now on I will just nod and say "yes, yes, Bobby V will whip all of the entitled losers into shape or sit them, even if they make 20m a year. And when those players are back on the field we can all revel in their reformed ways and new personalities, masterfully crafted by the inventor of the wrap sandwich.

 

I'm sure Beckett is done being Beckett and Crawford has lost the stubborn and private sides of himself that made him successful in the first place.

 

I am calling ******** too. How many playoff games have we won in the past three years? How are we doing with our pitching=how did we finish in ERA compared to the rest of the AL during the first three years? Its great that Epstein inherited a very good team and made it a little better, good enough to win in 2004. Wonderful. I will give him credit for 2007 for the most part. Now we see what has been eating at this team, probably for longer than just 2011 when it was discovered. Just listen to the language these freaks are using-Wakefield ("the fans deserve to see me go for the record"-imagine if a New England Patriot had said that!), Beckett, Crawford, and who else that we don't even know about. This crew needs to come into line or we will continue to have results like the last three years. Every sane person knows that they guys getting along and being professional is very important to success.

You can have your opinion, which I disagree with, but dude, you cannot take mine away from me.

********. Ha.

[FredLynn]

I was never a BV fan and was amazed when the media began to kick around his name as a potential manager.....evern more amazed when it happened. BUT....the front office knew what they were getting as far as his "big mouth", accepted the BV that you knew was coming in and apparently welcomed it. If they did not want the team problems/issues hung out there in public, it would not have happened.

 

It did happen.... repeatedly so I have to think the big boys were not in agreement with the shield of silence of Francona once it resulted in what was the end of his era.

 

You bet they knew what they were getting. They knew it and they knew they NEEDED it.

I agree with Lucchino. Valentine is the right guy for the job, at least for a couple of years.

[ibot2much]

A good game manager could have made the difference. Tito's managerial strength was in managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Once he could no longer do that' date=' he offered nothing as manager. They have gone in the other direction with Bobby V. [/quote']

 

 

I do agree with you on this point. Whatever it was that caused the Francona/team relationship to collapse is not something we know. The talk about his physical problems and use of meds as wel as the separation with his wife had to contribute to what must have been a hellous year for him.

 

He did have his strengths and once he didn't have that strength, it was time to move in a different direction

[example1]

Finally' date=' saying that someone didn't return your call is not exactly dragging your name through the mud. People who think that it is need to get some perspective.[/quote']

 

I was responding to Pumpsie's claim that the best way to get this team headed the right direction is to publicly call out players for any transgression. He's advocating much more than just saying Crawford didn't call him back. I disagree with that approach, particularly before other approaches have been tried.

 

If Valentine is already at the point where not defending his players is the only tool he has to turn things around--before he has even met them, then he is a much less intelligent and talented person than I thought he was when he was hired.

[a700hitter]

I was responding to Pumpsie's claim that the best way to get this team headed the right direction is to publicly call out players for any transgression. He's advocating much more than just saying Crawford didn't call him back. I disagree with that approach, particularly before other approaches have been tried.

 

If Valentine is already at the point where not defending his players is the only tool he has to turn things around--before he has even met them, then he is a much less intelligent and talented person than I thought he was when he was hired.

I don't think that is where Valentine is at. He's not a likeable guy, but he is not stupid. He's probably one of the more intelligent managers, maybe the most intelligent now that La Russa is retired.

[Deebs]

The 2011 Red Sox are not the only team that ever had problems in the clubhouse. Every team, every season has some problems, be it insubordination or fighting between players, or whatever. We just don't hear about the vast majority of them because FO's prefer to keep those matters out of the press, and for good reason.

 

As others have said, Francona's approach in handling his team worked very well, up until this past season, and even then, it worked until September.

 

Whipping the players in line isn't going to work if the players end up not trusting or respecting the manager. Players don't necessarily have to like their manager, but their has to be respect and trust. If I were a player on this team, even someone like Pedroia who is not part of the problem, I would not trust Valentine based on what I've seen and heard so far. A really good manager would be able to keep the players in line without having to make the issues public.

[Deebs]

You bet they knew what they were getting. They knew it and they knew they NEEDED it.

I agree with Lucchino. Valentine is the right guy for the job, at least for a couple of years.

 

Just wait until the first time the FO makes a move that Valentine disagrees with or that Valentine wasn't consulted about.

 

Then we may see some first class whining and pouting.

[a700hitter]

If I were a player on this team' date=' even someone like Pedroia who is not part of the problem, [b']I would not trust Valentine based on what I've seen and heard so far.[/b] A really good manager would be able to keep the players in line without having to make the issues public.

:lol::lol:What has he done so far that has been so terrible?

[example1]

I am calling ******** too. How many playoff games have we won in the past three years? How are we doing with our pitching=how did we finish in ERA compared to the rest of the AL during the first three years? Its great that Epstein inherited a very good team and made it a little better' date=' good enough to win in 2004. [/quote']

 

Adding Mueller, Millar, Bellhorn, Ortiz, Arroyo, Foulke, Schilling, Mientkiewicz, Cabrera, and Roberts is more than just making it a "little" better. They made it good enough to win the World Series and added some huge pieces.

 

 

Wonderful. I will give him credit for 2007 for the most part. Now we see what has been eating at this team, probably for longer than just 2011 when it was discovered. Just listen to the language these freaks are using-Wakefield ("the fans deserve to see me go for the record"-imagine if a New England Patriot had said that!), Beckett, Crawford, and who else that we don't even know about. This crew needs to come into line or we will continue to have results like the last three years. Every sane person knows that they guys getting along and being professional is very important to success.

 

Every sane person knows that publically starting s*** around your players, leading the media to question their personalities, etc., is NOT a way to promote "guys getting along and being professional". I agree that is very important to success, but find for me the book about management or leadership that says:

 

"Before you have met with your employees it is good to lead the media to believe that they are nonresponsive jerks. It is best if this is done in some way that otherwise intelligent people will start calling them "entitled" and saying they need to "come into line"."

 

You mention the Patriots. Can you imagine Bill Belichick starting s*** like this? He might not tolerate insubordination (I don't think anyone should) but he won't even answer basic questions about his team in press conferences. That's defending his team. What happens in private stays in private but he handles it. Valentine can't control his impulses enough to say things that don't start firestorms. First it was "Josh didn't want me to talk about it, so I won't. I will just say that most of the beginning of the conversation was him being really pissed off at me and us discussing that. Then we moved on to other things" (paraphrasing) and now just casually putting out there that Crawford hasn't called him back and not saying "but we will work it out" or "this is pretty typical" or "it's no big deal, I'm sure we'll talk" or "this is nothing for the media and reactive fans to get upset about"... it's poorly managed and he hasn't even MET the guy yet.

 

You can have your opinion, which I disagree with, but dude, you cannot take mine away from me.

********. Ha.

 

I didn't take your opinion away from you.

[example1]

I don't think that is where Valentine is at. He's not a likeable guy' date=' but he is not stupid. He's probably one of the more intelligent managers, maybe the most intelligent now that La Russa is retired.[/quote']

 

I suspect you are right. I don't think that Bobby V is going to be all about public accountability the way Pumpsie seems to think he will. I'm hopeful he is either off to a bad start or firing a shot or two across the bow to make the players think he's a loose cannon.

[a700hitter]

Every sane person knows that publically starting s*** around your players, leading the media to question their personalities, etc., is NOT a way to promote "guys getting along and being professional". I agree that is very important to success, but find for me the book about management or leadership that says:

 

"Before you have met with your employees it is good to lead the media to believe that they are nonresponsive jerks. It is best if this is done in some way that otherwise intelligent people will start calling them "entitled" and saying they need to "come into line"."

Oh come on E1, you have always preached about patience. Do really believe that Bobby V has done this ^? Let me say again that I have never been a fan of Bobby V's personality. It has always been my opinion that because he is one of the very few managers with an IQ above double digits, that he is very full of himself. However, I really don't think he has done anything wrong... yet. When he does, it will be unmistakable, probably resulting in a fine or his firing. Up until now, the only people who have criticized him have been a lot of super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form.

[Deebs]

:lol::lol:What has he done so far that has been so terrible?

 

Read example1's reply #194 regarding the handling of Crawford and Beckett. That sums it up pretty well.

[a700hitter]

Read example1's reply #194 regarding the handling of Crawford and Beckett. That sums it up pretty well.

It's really not that bad.:dunno:

[Deebs]

It's really not that bad.:dunno:

 

Maybe not, but do you think the player's aren't going to think twice before confiding in him about something? We all know that almost everything in the Boston media gets blown way out of proportion to begin with.

 

I just can't see things working out for the best if Valentine continues to make private team matters public. We'll see. I have no choice but to hope that whatever approach he chooses to take will work for the team.

 

He has a talented enough team (less on good SP currently) to make it to the playoffs. Let's hope his personality and ego don't get in the way.

[a700hitter]

Maybe not, but do you think the player's aren't going to think twice before confiding in him about something? We all know that almost everything in the Boston media gets blown way out of proportion to begin with.

 

I just can't see things working out for the best if Valentine continues to make private team matters public. We'll see. I have no choice but to hope that whatever approach he chooses to take will work for the team.

 

He has a talented enough team (less on good SP currently) to make it to the playoffs. Let's hope his personality and ego don't get in the way.

He hasn't breached any confidences.

[ibot2much]

BV's "handling" of the two mentioned has nothing to do with the fan perception of both of these guys...they both were in the news prior to V's arrival. The garbage about the chicken and beer surfaced long before he arrived.....and Beckett was the only pitcher who didn't come forward to talk about it ( not counting Lackey who should never show his face in New England...any part of it again). Fans were not crazy about that.

 

I liked CC in Tampa Bay and the fact that he totally sucked in Boston was not a good thing...and the fans were not thrilled with his lack of production.

 

Again...the two guys who already were in hot water with the fans were the two guys who were not responsive to their new boss's overtures. If they did respond to him in the most minimal fashion as anybody who ever worked knows you HAVE TO DO SO with your boss, then BV would have had nothing to say

[a700hitter]

BV's "handling" of the two mentioned has nothing to do with the fan perception of both of these guys...they both were in the news prior to V's arrival. The garbage about the chicken and beer surfaced long before he arrived.....and Beckett was the only pitcher who didn't come forward to talk about it ( not counting Lackey who should never show his face in New England...any part of it again). Fans were not crazy about that.

 

I liked CC in Tampa Bay and the fact that he totally sucked in Boston was not a good thing...and the fans were not thrilled with his lack of production.

 

Again...the two guys who already were in hot water with the fans were the two guys who were not responsive to their new boss's overtures. If they did respond to him in the most minimal fashion as anybody who ever worked knows you HAVE TO DO SO with your boss, then BV would have had nothing to say

100% right. People were talking about trading Beckett on the message boards, talk radio and the newspapers before Bobby V got an interview. And people weren't too thrilled with CC either. Bobby V has had nothing to do with the issues of either of these players.

[example1]

If what the fans are talking about is something related to something Bobby V said--and it is-- then it is linked to Bobby V. It is very simple. Whether or not the fans were predisposed to erupt all over again, if he stokes the fire or does things that don't put it out, he isn't helping the situation and he could be.

 

As far as I remember, crawford was in hot water for his performance, not his character. Thanks to Valentine his character is being questioned, and they haven't even talked yet.

 

I don't think it's a big deal. It will all be sorted out soon.

[a700hitter]

If what the fans are talking about is something related to something Bobby V said--and it is-- then it is linked to Bobby V. It is very simple. Whether or not the fans were predisposed to erupt all over again, if he stokes the fire or does things that don't put it out, he isn't helping the situation and he could be.

 

As far as I remember, crawford was in hot water for his performance, not his character. Thanks to Valentine his character is being questioned, and they haven't even talked yet.

 

I don't think it's a big deal. It will all be sorted out soon.

Towards the end of the season, some writers (I think Cafardo was one) alluded to the fact that Crawford was not very gracious or open with the writers after games.

[VA Sox Fan]

Oh come on E1' date=' you have always preached about patience. Do really believe that Bobby V has done this ^? Let me say again that I have never been a fan of Bobby V's personality. It has always been my opinion that because he is one of the very few managers with an IQ above double digits, that he is very full of himself. However, I really don't think he has done anything wrong... yet. When he does, it will be unmistakable, probably resulting in a fine or his firing. [b']Up until now, the only people who have criticized him have been a lot of super sensitive people raised in an ultra PC world where skins have been conditioned to be so thin that it can barely keep the human form[/b].

 

Are you talking about those of us who criticized BV after the Crawford thing?

[VA Sox Fan]

Towards the end of the season' date=' some writers (I think Cafardo was one) alluded to the fact that Crawford was not very gracious or open with the writers after games.[/quote']

 

So?

[a700hitter]

Are you talking about those of us who criticized BV after the Crawford thing?

I am talking about this whole BV flap which is much ado about nothing, IMO, and it is emblematic of the hyper-sensitive PC world in which we live. Now, it is a PC faux pas for a manager to say that he has a call into a player that hasn't been returned. OMG! Such an attack on character. It's just so ridiculous.

[a700hitter]

So?

So?

[VA Sox Fan]

I am talking about this whole BV flap which is much ado about nothing' date=' IMO, and it is emblematic of the hyper-sensitive PC world in which we live. Now, it is a PC faux pas for a manager to say that he has a call into a player that hasn't been returned. OMG! Such an attack on character. It's just so ridiculous.[/quote']

 

I am far from PC or thin skinned. I don't have any posters out here on ignore. How many do you have?

[a700hitter]

I am far from PC or thin skinned. I don't have any posters out here on ignore. How many do you have?

Who called you thin skinned. I have never called you that. I have called you intolerant, but that has been about the extent of it.