Ortiz

[jung]

Well that is just perfect now isn't it. Of course he accepted. He would have to be dead and to stupid to fall over not to.

 

So far this is shaping up to be the Sox of old. Be prepared for a string of 12-8 losses.

[a700hitter]

Well that is just perfect now isn't it. Of course he accepted. He would have to be dead and to stupid to fall over not to.

 

So far this is shaping up to be the Sox of old. Be prepared for a string of 12-8 losses.

Ortiz really isn't the problem. He will hit 25-30 HRs knock in around 100 runs with around a .900 OPS. He'll help anchor a very productive lineup. The problem is that Theo messed up this teams financial payroll so bad that we can't fill our other needs.

[SoxSport]

Just listened to Carfardo's day 2 report on the meetings.

It did not sound encouraging. The holdup is Ortiz, apparently.

What a mistake it was to offer him arbitration. Now he gets $14 mil for a year if he accepts, and

still can wheel and deal with other teams until Feb.

Cafardo says the Sox offered him 2/18, which he rejected. He'll never get that money anywhere else.

 

Nick is questioning why they missed out on Santos, a controllable closer who went to Toronto.

He says they had a meeting with the White Sox about Quentin, and Santos never came up.

Could be the Ortiz factor, could be they don't like Santos.

 

Could also be that gentle Ben C. may turn out to be too gentle when it comes to wheeling and dealing.

Presumably that's one of the reasons Valentine is there.

 

Why did they offer arbitration to Ortiz? There's no market for him.

[Laser Show]

Just listened to Carfardo's day 2 report on the meetings.

It did not sound encouraging. The holdup is Ortiz, apparently.

What a mistake it was to offer him arbitration. Now he gets $14 mil for a year if he accepts, and

still can wheel and deal with other teams until Feb.

Cafardo says the Sox offered him 2/18, which he rejected. He'll never get that money anywhere else.

 

Nick is questioning why they missed out on Santos, a controllable closer who went to Toronto.

He says they had a meeting with the White Sox about Quentin, and Santos never came up.

Could be the Ortiz factor, could be they don't like Santos.

 

Could also be that gentle Ben C. may turn out to be too gentle when it comes to wheeling and dealing.

Presumably that's one of the reasons Valentine is there.

 

Why did they offer arbitration to Ortiz? There's no market for him.

 

They expected someone would be idiotic enough to sign him and they'd get the picks. It blew up in their face and now we're stuck with him again.

[a700hitter]

Just listened to Carfardo's day 2 report on the meetings.

It did not sound encouraging. The holdup is Ortiz, apparently.

What a mistake it was to offer him arbitration. Now he gets $14 mil for a year if he accepts, and

still can wheel and deal with other teams until Feb.

Cafardo says the Sox offered him 2/18, which he rejected. He'll never get that money anywhere else.

 

Nick is questioning why they missed out on Santos, a controllable closer who went to Toronto.

He says they had a meeting with the White Sox about Quentin, and Santos never came up.

Could be the Ortiz factor, could be they don't like Santos.

 

Could also be that gentle Ben C. may turn out to be too gentle when it comes to wheeling and dealing.

Presumably that's one of the reasons Valentine is there.

 

Why did they offer arbitration to Ortiz? There's no market for him.

Ortiz shouldn't be holding up things. They should know that they will be paying him about $14 million in 2012, and move on to execute the rest of your plan. There is really very little uncertainty with Ortiz at this point. By accepting arbitration, he is Red Sox property in 2012. He can't shop himself to other teams.

[a700hitter]

They expected someone would be idiotic enough to sign him and they'd get the picks. It blew up in their face and now we're stuck with him again.

That's exactly what happened. The stupid pick mania. He had no market outside of the Sox. They lost all negotiating leverage by offering him arbitration, because he knows that he will be locked in for $14 or $15 million in 2012. He'll never accept 2/$18, not even 2/$20. If they had declined to offer him arbitration, they would have had him signed up for 2/$18 if not cheaper. These idiots let the tail (picks) wafg the dog.

[SoxSport]

Ortiz really isn't the problem. He will hit 25-30 HRs knock in around 100 runs with around a .900 OPS. He'll help anchor a very productive lineup. The problem is that Theo messed up this teams financial payroll so bad that we can't fill our other needs.

 

Which Papi will show up next year? At his age, you don't know.

[a700hitter]

Which Papi will show up next year? At his age' date=' you don't know.[/quote']Barring his wrist injury which hurt his performance at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009, he has been a consistently excellent performer.

[FredLynn]

David Ortiz To Accept Arbitration

 

 

 

 

:thumbsup:

 

:thumbdown

[FredLynn]

Just listened to Carfardo's day 2 report on the meetings.

It did not sound encouraging. The holdup is Ortiz, apparently.

What a mistake it was to offer him arbitration. Now he gets $14 mil for a year if he accepts, and

still can wheel and deal with other teams until Feb.

Cafardo says the Sox offered him 2/18, which he rejected. He'll never get that money anywhere else.

 

Nick is questioning why they missed out on Santos, a controllable closer who went to Toronto.

He says they had a meeting with the White Sox about Quentin, and Santos never came up.

Could be the Ortiz factor, could be they don't like Santos.

 

Could also be that gentle Ben C. may turn out to be too gentle when it comes to wheeling and dealing.

Presumably that's one of the reasons Valentine is there.

 

Why did they offer arbitration to Ortiz? There's no market for him.

 

He will be here next year. There are NO other teams out there willing to pay him the "amount of respect" he thinks he deserves. In staying on the roster next year he will prevent us from having the flexibility to give some of the other position players a breather by DH'ing for the day, he will block Lavarnway from DH'ing some of the time, he will prevent the team from getting two good draft picks for his aging body, and he will continue whining in a self-important manner just like he is doing right now. He is a cancer on the team and is preventing us from completing the necessary housecleaning job we have to do.

[FredLynn]

Ortiz really isn't the problem. He will hit 25-30 HRs knock in around 100 runs with around a .900 OPS. He'll help anchor a very productive lineup. The problem is that Theo messed up this teams financial payroll so bad that we can't fill our other needs.

 

Nope. Not this year. Maybe not next year either. But in 2-3 years we should, hopefully, become relevant again.

[YAZMAN]

Ortiz really isn't the problem. He will hit 25-30 HRs knock in around 100 runs with around a .900 OPS. He'll help anchor a very productive lineup. The problem is that Theo messed up this teams financial payroll so bad that we can't fill our other needs.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Correct on both assessments, sir.

[SoxSport]

It boils down to this: they can't afford both CC and Papi--without compromising their pitching.

[jung]

Ortiz is not the problem. The idiots that offered him arbitration are the problem. You can't possibly under any circumstances justify paying him $14M unless you have a real plan for solving the pitching issues. Ortiz can hit 40 home runs...it won't matter. Just like it never mattered to most of those 1960's Red Sox teams that could score a zillion runs but could not prevent anybody else from scoring.

 

We talk about pitching like it is only important when and if you get to the post season. It is always pitching from day one of the regular season. No matter how far you go, it is always pitching.

 

If in fact they are not going to break the LT cap, then they simply could not afford this gamble. They should have just cut Ortiz away. In fact we are in part claiming that we did not even want him. We gambled that we would get draft picks which on the surface was a nutty gamble to begin with. Nobody was making any moves that meant anything on Ortiz and you would have hoped the FO would have been able to figure that out.

 

If they are not going to break the LT cap I suspect that means Bard closes whether he is ready or not. How I wish their pitching problems stopped there. Never fear though we will have last year's best DH in baseball back again at whatever the hell age he is. We will have no help from the RH side of plate. No rest for youk and AGons..., effectively blocked Lavarnway and worse than anything else, not nearly enough pitching to even be respectable. I could almost take it if the Sox did not have a history of building unsuccessful teams with exactly the profile this team will have only worse...certainly worse against any LH pitcher.

[RonVermette]

I think this just means that we are going for 2 or 3 not too expensive pitchers in the hope that oneof them turns out to be another Aceves.

[jung]

I think this just means that we are going for 2 or 3 not too expensive pitchers in the hope that oneof them turns out to be another Aceves.

 

The only problem with that strategy is that the Sox are so shy on pitching now that all three would have to pitch and you simply cannot get much out of three arms that you paid on average $3M per for. Ya' you might get lucky with one and the other two will kill you day in and day out.

 

They probably would have been better off trading for Santos if they only knew he was available. That would have allowed Bard to stay where he is.

[iortiz]

Ortiz really isn't the problem. He will hit 25-30 HRs knock in around 100 runs with around a .900 OPS. He'll help anchor a very productive lineup. The problem is that Theo messed up this teams financial payroll so bad that we can't fill our other needs.

 

Exactly.

 

... and no moves at our #1 priority yet: PITCHING.

[FredLynn]

Exactly.

 

... and no moves at our #1 priority yet: PITCHING.

 

There is no one out there who can be had for a reasonable price (ie the amount of money the team has to spend) who will help us significantly this year. Hence, we signed Andrew Miller.

[seabeachfred]

I agree. They did him a favor offering him arbitration--which he has now wisely accepted.

After all, it's binding to the team--not to him. He can still sign somewhere else. In doing so, they have limited their pitching options.

 

Their loyalty to ageing players like Tek, Wake and Ortiz has hurt the team's development.

Even with Papi's unexpected comeback last year. You could say CC's signing last year made

Papi a DH luxury they could not afford.

 

First of all, the front office was absolutely stupid beyond words to offer Ortiz arbitration. They didn't do their so-called due diligence. If they had they would have learned real quickly that there was no market for a DH who couldn't play defense. Secondly, most teams are not going to risk losing two draft choices to sign such a player. Thirdly, this has set the Red Sox back maybe two or three years. Lavarnway is now blocked so the FO can now make the excuse he needs more seasoning, which he doesn't, and gives the bumbling Cheringpuke an excuse to bring back the stumbling and bumbling Varitek for another year. We now are out of the money for pitching, a closer, a RH hitting RF and bullpen help.

 

The way the Red Sox are stubbornly loyal to their long time players nowadays borders on both the idiotic and the criminal. It also looks to me like the new GM can't walk and chew gum at the same time. He has quickly morphed into a real dud.

[a700hitter]

First of all, the front office was absolutely stupid beyond words to offer Ortiz arbitration. They didn't do their so-called due diligence. If they had they would have learned real quickly that there was no market for a DH who couldn't play defense. Secondly, most teams are not going to risk losing two draft choices to sign such a player. Thirdly, this has set the Red Sox back maybe two or three years. Lavarnway is now blocked so the FO can now make the excuse he needs more seasoning, which he doesn't, and gives the bumbling Cheringpuke an excuse to bring back the stumbling and bumbling Varitek for another year. We now are out of the money for pitching, a closer, a RH hitting RF and bullpen help.

 

The way the Red Sox are stubbornly loyal to their long time players nowadays borders on both the idiotic and the criminal. It also looks to me like the new GM can't walk and chew gum at the same time. He has quickly morphed into a real dud.

Some might call him a boob.

[iortiz]

Ortiz is not the problem. The idiots that offered him arbitration are the problem. You can't possibly under any circumstances justify paying him $14M unless you have a real plan for solving the pitching issues. Ortiz can hit 40 home runs...it won't matter. Just like it never mattered to most of those 1960's Red Sox teams that could score a zillion runs but could not prevent anybody else from scoring.

 

We talk about pitching like it is only important when and if you get to the post season. It is always pitching from day one of the regular season. No matter how far you go, it is always pitching.

 

If in fact they are not going to break the LT cap, then they simply could not afford this gamble. They should have just cut Ortiz away. In fact we are in part claiming that we did not even want him. We gambled that we would get draft picks which on the surface was a nutty gamble to begin with. Nobody was making any moves that meant anything on Ortiz and you would have hoped the FO would have been able to figure that out.

 

If they are not going to break the LT cap I suspect that means Bard closes whether he is ready or not. How I wish their pitching problems stopped there. Never fear though we will have last year's best DH in baseball back again at whatever the hell age he is. We will have no help from the RH side of plate. No rest for youk and AGons..., effectively blocked Lavarnway and worse than anything else, not nearly enough pitching to even be respectable. I could almost take it if the Sox did not have a history of building unsuccessful teams with exactly the profile this team will have only worse...certainly worse against any LH pitcher.

 

We've been discussing this concern jung, over and over again, and again you are right. You can even sign Pujols and Reyes if you want, and still you won't go anywhere without pitching. Our problem is not our offense, if you rush me, we can face next season with our current offense. IMO Lavarnway, Reddick and Kalish among others like Lowrie and Aviles can handle those offensive holes, regardless you won't clog these talent one more year. Sure, maybe you won't be the #1 offense again, but we will be fine if you balance this team with solid pitching. Our epic collapse was all about pathetic pitching and missing of depth. In fact, our rotation taxed a lot of pressure to our BP and mostly to the best offense of the league, night after night in September. We all know the results. You better Learn.

 

Hopefully they already have everything figured out. Would be very dumb and pathetic if they didn't notice where is damn issue. Maybe and just maybe after this move (Ortiz) and considering that they won't have that room before the LT cap in order to fill those holes in our pitching, they are planning to go over it after all.

 

You know what would be very but very scary, if they were very confident about Bard and probably Aceves in order to make their transition to the rotation and they built an entire BP with a bunch of looooong shot pieces, of course If they didn't bust the LT cap. That my friend, would be a scary movie that I definitely don't want to see.

[iortiz]

There is no one out there who can be had for a reasonable price (ie the amount of money the team has to spend) who will help us significantly this year. Hence' date=' we signed [b']Andrew Miller[/b].

 

Ohh sorry, I totally forgot this one. I don't know why.

 

Well, If Miller is the solution among others like him (long shots) in order to fill the pitching holes we are definitely screwed my friend.

[iortiz]

Some might call him a boob.

[SoxSport]

Hey, there's hope. Papi hasn't accepted arb yet.

[3rdManOut]

I thought the news said that he did, no? I am so confused.

[FredLynn]

Ohh sorry, I totally forgot this one. I don't know why.

 

Well, If Miller is the solution among others like him (long shots) in order to fill the pitching holes we are definitely screwed my friend.

 

Yes, we ARE screwed this year. We are not getting any quality pitching to help us unless one of the bums we hire does an about face and suddenly becomes competent. That could happen I suppose, especially in the pen which is always a crapshoot. Epstein has screwed this franchise for years to come because of his long term expensive contracts with guys like Lackey, Matsusaka, and Crawford-and probably Beckett is in that category too. Even if Bard and Aceves become SP how many innings do you really think they will be tossing this year, their first in the majors as SP? 160? Less? So we will need to be 8 or 9 SP deep, and when you are that deep you can bet the lower tier consists of sub-bums like Wakefield and Miller.

We are just going to have to tolerate the losses this year and hope that enough $$ comes off the books over the next 2-3 years to enable us to secure good pitching talent and hope that our GM (who I regard as suspect since he was trained by Epstein) exercises good judgement in that selection.

[FredLynn]

Hey' date=' there's hope. Papi hasn't accepted arb yet.[/quote']

 

Heyman is tweeting that he is going to accept it. Really, what choice does he have. He is all ours next year.

[VA Sox Fan]

Some might call him a boob.

 

And some people might be a little more patient as it is only December and not rush to judgement. But others will panic, freak a bit and criticize. It all depends on your personality type. To each his/her own. I'm psyched about the 2012 season. Hey, it CANNOT be any worse than 2011, right?

 

Oh, I forgot about 1986. Y'all know, when Buckner blew everything?

[a700hitter]

And some people might be a little more patient as it is only December and not rush to judgement. But others will panic, freak a bit and criticize. It all depends on your personality type. To each his/her own. I'm psyched about the 2012 season. Hey, it CANNOT be any worse than 2011, right?

 

Oh, I forgot about 1986. Y'all know, when Buckner blew everything?

As usual, you are humorless, but if it makes you feel better to criticize posters in response to a joke, have at at it babe.

[jung]

While it is true that Ortiz may not accept arbitration he has us over a barrel. A 37 year old DH that can't play in the field has us over a barrel. He either takes arbitration or out of desperation we offer him two years at something $9-$10 per to avoid the one year at $14-$15 per.

 

Maybe this team needs a year of being smacked silly. It might knock some sense into their heads.