Ortiz

[jung]

Now it is official. He has accepted. Just great. Maybe Ortiz has a career in the FO.

[VA Sox Fan]

As usual' date=' you are humorless, but if it makes you feel better to criticize posters in response to a joke, have at at it babe.[/quote']

 

I have more humor in my pinkie finger than most bro. Chill out.

 

Haven't you read all the posts about our Sox not having a chance in 2012? I'm about to vomit. OH MY GOD! Premature pessimism always drives me nuts. Sorry.

 

I apologize if I offended you. Not my intention, seriously.

[MNSoxChief102]

It's official... from Gordon Edes (Twitter)

 

Ortiz has officially accepted arbitration

 

Sox can still negotiate a two year deal, but it won't be for less than $20 million total. Still that might be a better alternative since we'd have more money to work with now when we really need it to upgrade pitching.

[MNSoxChief102]

This from Ian Browne...

 

Oritz has accepted arbitration, but neither side has ruled out a two-year deal at some point this winter.

 

I'd be surprised if this thing goes all the way to arb. In fact I expect a two year deal to get done sooner rather than later. Need to get some closure on it so we can move on.

[VA Sox Fan]

It's official... from Gordon Edes (Twitter)

 

 

 

Sox can still negotiate a two year deal, but it won't be for less than $20 million total. Still that might be a better alternative since we'd have more money to work with now when we really need it to upgrade pitching.

 

Cool. I think we all knew this would happen. Kick ass in 2012 Big Papi!

[a700hitter]

I have more humor in my pinkie finger than most bro. Chill out.

 

Haven't you read all the posts about our Sox not having a chance in 2012? I'm about to vomit. OH MY GOD! Premature pessimism always drives me nuts. Sorry.

 

I apologize if I offended you. Not my intention, seriously.

So, you don't share their opinion. One thing I will say is that none of their posts insult other posters. I find it funny how the so-called "pessimists" just criticize the organization and it's moves while the so-called "optimists" criticize and insult other posters.

[VA Sox Fan]

So' date=' you don't share their opinion. One thing I will say is that none of their posts insult other posters. I find it funny how the so-called "pessimists" just criticize the organization and it's moves while the so-called "optimists" criticize and insult other posters.[/quote']

 

Who did I insult?

[a700hitter]

Who did I insult?

Basically, you ridiculed everyone who has been questioning and/or criticizing the FO off season moves and non-moves. Are you saying that you didn't mean to ridicule? It sure came off that way.

[iortiz]

Yes, we ARE screwed this year. We are not getting any quality pitching to help us unless one of the bums we hire does an about face and suddenly becomes competent. That could happen I suppose, especially in the pen which is always a crapshoot. Epstein has screwed this franchise for years to come because of his long term expensive contracts with guys like Lackey, Matsusaka, and Crawford-and probably Beckett is in that category too. Even if Bard and Aceves become SP how many innings do you really think they will be tossing this year, their first in the majors as SP? 160? Less? So we will need to be 8 or 9 SP deep, and when you are that deep you can bet the lower tier consists of sub-bums like Wakefield and Miller.

We are just going to have to tolerate the losses this year and hope that enough $$ comes off the books over the next 2-3 years to enable us to secure good pitching talent and hope that our GM (who I regard as suspect since he was trained by Epstein) exercises good judgement in that selection.

 

Well, going to Boston next year maybe is not a good idea, after all. Going there is far to be cheap from here. I'm not sure whether the trip will worth or not, anymore.

 

Your argument seems solid if we don't bust the cap or maybe BC is just about to probe that is very creative building teams.

[VA Sox Fan]

Basically' date=' you ridiculed everyone who has been questioning and/or criticizing the FO off season moves and non-moves. Are you saying that you didn't mean to ridicule? It sure came off that way.[/quote']

 

You mean the way you ridicule those who do not agree with you?

[a700hitter]

You mean the way you ridicule those who do not agree with you?

I don't agree with that, but you know what they say about two wrongs.

[redsoxrules]

With the Re-signing of Ortiz , there's NWIH the FO signs anyone worth signing. Otherwise they'll go over the luxury tax and I doubt the FO will do that.

 

So Ben will have to get creative to get this team better.

[VA Sox Fan]

I don't agree with that' date=' but you know what they say about two wrongs.[/quote']

 

 

You would never agree with that. You argued for a least a page of a thread about how a certain portion of Baltimore is safe for tourists with someone who actually lived there and knew more about the area than you do. You guys went on and on and on. Sometimes it's easier to let it go. But when you have 2 "know it alls" discussing a subject matter, it is never ending. I have been to Baltimore about 10 or so times in my life, but never felt threatened. But that's me.

 

Leave me alone okay? Since some of the newer "more negative than EVEN YOU" posters have come on board, I have actually admired your less negative posts.

 

With the resurgence of some of the newer posters, I have ACTUALLY thought about putting ONE on IGNORE. After almost 6 years out here. But not even you.

 

Relax Red Sox fans. Let's see how 2012 pans out. Nothing we say, think or post will change anything.

[jung]

I would love to have been a fly on the wall to listen how the Sox came to the decision to offer Ortiz arbitration. That was so obviously a bad bad move. How the hell did that discussion go?

 

When you line up all of the things that would have spoken against offering him arb I just don't see how you end up ignoring all of that or not acknowledging it or whatever the hell they did to get there.

 

I won't post up the entire list of negatives a) because it would be a repeat and because the list is so damn long. Although that said, I fail to understand why most of us simply fail for the most part to recognize that Ortiz is now at an age where he can turn into a pumpkin just any time, much like fighters that literally age 10 years within the rounds of one fight, right before your eyes....one of the saddest things in sports just as an aside.

 

What would be on the other side of the ledger?

- Had a great year in 2011

- proven great clutch hitter

- team leader particular for any of the other latin guys (a bit questioned after 2011)

- if we don't sign him somebody else in the AL east will (I hate this one worse than anything cause it is such a knee jerk fan reaction which is fine for fans but a pretty silly rationalization for a FO)

 

Frankly that is it from a pure baseball perspective. But now lets look at this the way I content the Sox always now look at these things.

- BIg name hitter that can put up flashy numbers

- Will bring people to the park, especially fans from the latin community

- generally good PR guy

 

"Big name" being the most relevant from a Sox perspective. We so rarely see the good FO move that brings us a solid player that may not be flashy but gives you a solid day's work day in and day out. That is why this team has no depth and is jam packed with aging stars that are either brittle or prone to fatigue with nothing backing them up.

 

While we blame Cherington now much like we blamed Theo before, they are a product of the same problem. Neither one had the horsepower within the FO to change the approach to team building that the Sox have adopted at least since 2007 and maybe even earlier than that. Show me a GM that cares about how 'Big" the name is for a player he is considering and I will show you a GM that is being run by the business side of the house and not given enough autonomy within the baseball operations side and that describes the Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

You would never agree with that. You argued for a least a page of a thread about how a certain portion of Baltimore is safe for tourists with someone who actually lived there and knew more about the area than you do. You guys went on and on and on. Sometimes it's easier to let it go. But when you have 2 "know it alls" discussing a subject matter' date=' it is never ending. I have been to Baltimore about 10 or so times in my life, but never felt threatened. But that's me.[/quote']But neither of us made it personal. We just disagreed, and then we changed the subject.

 

Leave me alone okay? Since some of the newer "more negative than EVEN YOU" posters have come on board, I have actually admired your less negative posts.

 

With the resurgence of some of the newer posters, I have ACTUALLY thought about putting ONE on IGNORE. After almost 6 years out here. But not even you.

 

Relax Red Sox fans. Let's see how 2012 pans out. Nothing we say, think or post will change anything.

We do leave you alone. No one here attacks you. It would be nice if you would show the same respect to others who post opinions that you consider to be negative. Peace.

[SoxSport]

Bad spending moves the last couple years has caught up with them this year. Ortiz is the nail in the pitching coffin--unless they get very lucky this year.

[seabeachfred]

But neither of us made it personal. We just disagreed, and then we changed the subject.

 

We do leave you alone. No one here attacks you. It would be nice if you would show the same respect to others who post opinions that you consider to be negative. Peace.

 

That lady rails and moans when anything negative is said about the Red Sox, and I think she is talking about me when she says she is thinking of putting one of us on ignore. I wish she would just do that and be done with it. I've dealt with these pollyanna types before. Yes 700, it is good to be optimistic if there is some sense of reality to it but right now for anyone to take that line of thought just makes me roll my eyes. Y et, if they want to do it, then fine by me. Just allow me to say that I take a different position and respect my right to say sit without making some snide remarks. Better yet, I wish she would just put me on ignore so I wouldn't have to deal with her anymore.

[example1]

If nothing else, this move gives them a contract that they can drop next year in an effort to open up money for a FA pitcher like Hamels or Cain (assuming they don't get extensions, etc.,). With Dice-K, Jenks and Scutaro all coming off the books at that time, they would be looking at something like $35m coming off the books. Hopefully with another year of Kalish/Reddick, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Iglesias or Lowrie all finding a spot, they will have just about every position locked down and could use most of that money on the rotation.

 

It's wishful thinking, but is a reasonable rationale for their approach.

 

Also, as far as we know, they could have other things up their sleeves for 2012. NWIH they are planning on just sitting around hoping things go well, and wasting the prime years of guys like Lester, Buchholz, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Ellsbury.

[SCM33]

This sucks.

 

This pretty much put a damper on any other kind of big move to their lineup. Ortiz cant play any other position and Youkilis will miss half the season with an assortment of injuries instead of DH'ing.

 

Another year of listening to him bitch about sitting 80% of the time during interleague games....another year of forcing Adrian Gonzalez to play RF bc Ortiz is too selfish to realize how much it could hurt the team. Another year of bitching about RBI's during post game conferences.

 

I am not happy with this. If they are going to pay the guy 15M frigging dollars a year, why not target someone like Aramis Ramirez so they can rotate Youkilis and him between 3B and DH? At least Ramirez gives you some flexibility between 1B, 3B and DH.

[iortiz]

What happened with Beltran? He could be another option and play in the field...

 

I'm not against Ortiz, he will produce, the thing is that I would prefer I guy who can play the field as well...

 

But again, my concern is still pitching, pitching, pitching.

[boy racer]

This will definitely restrict our spending so we better hope he shows up to put up some numbers.

[boy racer]

What happened with Beltran? He could be another option and play in the field...

 

I'm not against Ortiz, he will produce, the thing is that I would prefer I guy who can play the field as well...

 

But again, my concern is still pitching, pitching, pitching.

[jung]

If nothing else, this move gives them a contract that they can drop next year in an effort to open up money for a FA pitcher like Hamels or Cain (assuming they don't get extensions, etc.,). With Dice-K, Jenks and Scutaro all coming off the books at that time, they would be looking at something like $35m coming off the books. Hopefully with another year of Kalish/Reddick, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Iglesias or Lowrie all finding a spot, they will have just about every position locked down and could use most of that money on the rotation.

 

It's wishful thinking, but is a reasonable rationale for their approach.

 

Also, as far as we know, they could have other things up their sleeves for 2012. NWIH they are planning on just sitting around hoping things go well, and wasting the prime years of guys like Lester, Buchholz, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Ellsbury.

 

Unfortunately I think you are just really reaching here. This is an insanely bad blunder with no redeeming qualities to be found.

[a700hitter]

If nothing else, this move gives them a contract that they can drop next year in an effort to open up money for a FA pitcher like Hamels or Cain (assuming they don't get extensions, etc.,). With Dice-K, Jenks and Scutaro all coming off the books at that time, they would be looking at something like $35m coming off the books. Hopefully with another year of Kalish/Reddick, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Iglesias or Lowrie all finding a spot, they will have just about every position locked down and could use most of that money on the rotation.

 

It's wishful thinking, but is a reasonable rationale for their approach.

 

Also, as far as we know, they could have other things up their sleeves for 2012. NWIH they are planning on just sitting around hoping things go well, and wasting the prime years of guys like Lester, Buchholz, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Ellsbury.

I agree that they are going to try to get back to the playoffs in 2012. It would make no sense to sit out 2012 with the core roster that they have. In a couple of years they will be grappling with keeping Lester, Buchholz, Ells and Youk, so the issues will be the same a couple of years down the road. I would not be shocked if they go over the cap this season. I expect some significant move-- not major stars, but significant, but it will be frustrating because BC said they will probably make their moves later in the off season. I hope that they don't wait so long that they can't execute their plan,

[jung]

I actually thought for a time that the one silver lining in the Ortiz arbitration gambit was that it indicated a willingness to go ahead and ignore the tax for this year and posted as such in this forum, maybe in this thread. However the media has been blasting away at the whole tax issue of late and the source for the information has been attributed to the Sox themselves. No I don't think this is some clandestine move to sneak up on the league and spend a bunch of money.

 

At some point this all becomes a done deal and there is nobody left to spend much money on anyway. Guys are being sucked up pretty fast now. The later it gets the more i am inclined to think what we will see is more trade moves than FA moves in an effort to trade salary for salary.

[SoxSport]

This sucks.

 

This pretty much put a damper on any other kind of big move to their lineup. Ortiz cant play any other position and Youkilis will miss half the season with an assortment of injuries instead of DH'ing.

 

Another year of listening to him bitch about sitting 80% of the time during interleague games....another year of forcing Adrian Gonzalez to play RF bc Ortiz is too selfish to realize how much it could hurt the team. Another year of bitching about RBI's during post game conferences.

 

I am not happy with this. If they are going to pay the guy 15M frigging dollars a year, why not target someone like Aramis Ramirez so they can rotate Youkilis and him between 3B and DH? At least Ramirez gives you some flexibility between 1B, 3B and DH.

 

It's the Red Sox. That's how they operate--and it has hurt them in recent years. They view Ortiz as a fan favorite. What nobody talks about is the phoney arbitration process, which only takes account the previous year stats. Papi had two bad years before that, when he was grossly overpaid.

[a700hitter]

It's the Red Sox. That's how they operate--and it has hurt them in recent years. They view Ortiz as a fan favorite. What nobody talks about is the phoney arbitration process' date=' which only takes account the previous year stats. Papi had two bad years before that, when he was grossly overpaid.[/quote']2010 was not a bad year. He struggle against lefties which put somewhat of a damper on his overall stats that were still very good. He was a wrecking machine against righty pitchers in 2010. He flat out mauled them.

[win red sox]

if it goes to arb the contract is not guaranteed, i think they could cut him and be on the hook for 1/6 of the contract, which if he signs for 15 million would be just over 2 million.

[a700hitter]

if it goes to arb the contract is not guaranteed' date=' i think they could cut him and be on the hook for 1/6 of the contract, which if he signs for 15 million would be just over 2 million.[/quote']I don't know the details, but i can't believe that it would be that easy.

[jung]

There are some new arb rules in the new CBA but there is no telling which of those will be implemented now and which at the July 1, 2012 mark. I don't think they have as yet completely determined which new rules will fall where just yet.