Phillies sign Papelbon

[example1]

There are a lot of good things going on with this team. We are just this far from being a prominent team. Holds thumb and forefinger an inch apart.

 

At least Theo and Tito are gone though, right?

 

Seriously though, this really shouldn't be shocking to most people. As soon as Paps said he wanted to test the market most predicted he would do just that.

 

I hope people are preparing for the same thread about Ellsbury in a few short years.

[jacksonianmarch]

Spitball, your 2 world series titles came on the backs of Keith Foulke and Jon Papelbon, two marquee closers. WAR doesnt take into effect the vital role of a closer. If a middle reliever fails in his duties to hold a lead, the team has a chance to come back and win. If a closer blows the save or gives up a lead, then it's a loss. And we have seen multiple free agents wilt under the bright lights in Boston and NY. How will one of these free agent closers fare in that setting? And a closer by committee approach works when you have multiple players with closer stuff rotating around a situation. Aside from Bard, the sox don't have guys with the big arms or the filthy stuff just sitting out there in the pen or in the high minors. Philly absolutely overpaid, no doubt. But in doing so, they set the market for other guys the sox will be targetting and they took away your best reliever. This is a devastating blow right now. Obviously if Ben goes out and signs KRod and Bell, then maybe this doesnt hurt so bad

[jung]

I don't want to see them stick the money into Ortiz either E1 because I think they could do a better job with that money and I would prefer a RH bat. I do think this is going to be one of those situations where I unfortunately get what I wish for and we will see many more young guys on this team than even I expected. While I am not pleased with the comments on Ortiz since they just smack of "we are not spending anything this offseason I am more concerned that they must get at least a #4 starter and I don't think he is in the minor league system somewhere.

 

I am more certain than ever that they are not going to break the Luxury Tax threshold and that immediately puts some parameters around what they can do in this offseason. If the don't sign Ortiz they have all of $24M to play with. If they do sign him they have $24M - Ortiz.

 

It might be more likely at this point that they will trade Ells.

[example1]

Paps wasn't Mariano rivera. He was very good but the team didn't want to pay his price and, frankly, he may have prefered a fresh start elsewhere.

[jacksonianmarch]

The thing is, though, which young guys are you talking about? Right now is not a good time in the sox org to "let the kids play" because most of the high level prospects of the last few yrs are either already in the rotation/lineup or are playing in San Diego and Cleveland. The sox have a few high level guys with flaws like Doubront (durability), Lavarnway (defense), Bowden (performance), but their true prospects are all AA or lower to start 2012. You almost have to fill the gaps. Now, maybe they go the cheap route in doing so. Maybe Kalish and Reddick fight for the RF slot, maybe Lavarnway is the opening day DH, maybe they move Aceves into the rotation, sign a guy like Chris Capuano to be the #5 guy and expect Bowden and Doubront to help set up for Bard as closer. Maybe they fill their bench with Bill Hall types, or maybe they give some kids a chance to get some PT as part timers. Who knows. But without a major impact prospect (aside from Lavarnway who I think has an impact bat), they really cannot go the "let them play" route

[a700hitter]

At least Theo and Tito are gone though, right?

 

Seriously though, this really shouldn't be shocking to most people. As soon as Paps said he wanted to test the market most predicted he would do just that.

 

I hope people are preparing for the same thread about Ellsbury in a few short years.

Ben the Boob obviously had no interest in making an offer to Papelbon, probably because the Sox are so deep in talent that they just need some fine tuning.

[jacksonianmarch]

At least Theo and Tito are gone though, right?

 

Seriously though, this really shouldn't be shocking to most people. As soon as Paps said he wanted to test the market most predicted he would do just that.

 

I hope people are preparing for the same thread about Ellsbury in a few short years.

 

You know Ells is leaving. The writing is on the wall. Might be a good time to sell high on him.

[jung]

Correct E1 there is only one Mariano and Paps is not him.

 

Less emphasis on the "devastating blow" comments would be good although it is not you making them e1. It should be clear that the Sox are not positioning themselves for one of those all in, this is the year, runs in 2012 like the Phils are and as such this is hardly a devastating blow.

[jacksonianmarch]

Correct E1 there is only one Mariano and Paps is not him.

 

Less emphasis on the "devastating blow" comments would be good although it is not you making them e1. It should be clear that the Sox are not positioning themselves for one of those all in, this is the year, runs in 2012 like the Phils are and as such this is hardly a devastating blow.

 

Well, if this is one of those "bridge" years, the sox fans might end up hanging themselves. If the Pats keep falling on their asses, the lockout continues, and the Bruins have a championship hangover, the Red Sox fervor will be at a fever pitch come April. If they miss the playoffs again, there might be an all out riot

[jung]

The ones you are referring to are exactly the ones I mean jacksonianmarch. Earlier the board was all aflutter with spending big dollars and bringing in this guy and that guy and it is just not going to happen. So yes I expect Kalish to get time in RF but I actually hope they do not sign Ortiz and get somebody with a RH bat to platoon at least this year with Kalish.

 

I expect Larvarnway to play this year. I expect some relief help from the young guys but I hope that they don't think there is a starter down there right now.

[jacksonianmarch]

They now need at least one marquee reliever and an innings eating starter. Their offense will suffer if they do not replace Papi, but even if they retain Papi, I dont think he repeats his 2011 performance. Right now, really, the sox have 3 starters, 2 of which are injury prone and one who had cancer. If they cannot get 2 more starters and build some real depth behind their top 5, I am going to be very happy come October 2012

[FredLynn]

Once again, somebobody else ate our lunch.

 

Dammit!

 

Yeah, but they overpaid for it. The ONLY way this deal is worth it is if Papelbon keeps putting up Rivera-like numbers for four more years. So far Rivera has a career ERA/WHIP of 2.21/1.00, and Papelbon is similar at 2.33/1.02. Rivera is one of the very few consistently excellent relievers in the history of the game. Most peak and its followed by inconsistent performances. For that money I would not want to see the Red Sox sign him. Bard will do fine.

[jung]

There is a good chance they will miss the playoffs in 2012 but I don't expect an all out riot. As long as the team plays hard and gives itself a chance, given the money available to spend, any other course of action particularly with such slim pickings for starting pitcher would just be foolhardy. Either we deal with it or we don't.

[iortiz]

Who the hell cares whether he is Mo. or not. He was the best closer we ever had and now is gone.

 

Cherington (or should I say Luchino?) better is cooking something big beside the manager, Sizemore (who sucks) and Theo's compensation.

[redsoxbeatz]

SUCKSSSSSSSSS LOL

[example1]

They now need at least one marquee reliever and an innings eating starter. Their offense will suffer if they do not replace Papi' date=' but even if they retain Papi, I dont think he repeats his 2011 performance. Right now, really, the sox have 3 starters, 2 of which are injury prone and one who had cancer. If they cannot get 2 more starters and build some real depth behind their top 5, I am going to be very happy come October 2012[/quote']

 

Remember, most of us were very happy with how the Yankees pitching staff looked going into 2011.

 

That didn't matter one bit.

[YAZMAN]

They now need at least one marquee reliever and an innings eating starter. Their offense will suffer if they do not replace Papi' date=' but even if they retain Papi, I dont think he repeats his 2011 performance. Right now, really, the sox have 3 starters, 2 of which are injury prone and one who had cancer. If they cannot get 2 more starters and build some real depth behind their top 5, I am going to be very happy come October 2012[/quote']

 

Here we go. Somebody get the f***ing chart out.

[example1]

Who the hell cares whether he is Mo. or not. He was the best closer we ever had and now is gone.

 

Cherington (or should I say Luchino?) better is cooking something big beside the manager, Sizemore (who sucks) and Theo's compensation.

 

They lost the best GM the team has had and you applauded. If papelbon shuts down Baltimore twice then the sox are in the playoffs, yet he is the golden boy. I had to turn away from the set more often than not with Paps in close games.

 

It's a loss but how big a loss we do not yet know. Plus, there are some draft picks coming, no?

[example1]

Here we go. Somebody get the f***ing chart out.

 

Ha! I hope someone dusts that off!

[FredLynn]

What some people are not grasping here is that it is irrelevant how Bard performs in the closer's role in 2012. If he gets 50 saves with a 0.50 ERA, it will not vindicate Ben the Boob. It's not like losing Papelbon will give Bard the opportunity to pitch. It will only change his inning. If the

new 8th inning guy doesn't do as well as Bard, the late inning performance of the Pen will be very negatively.

 

Bard was overused last year. He faded in September because of that. From April 1 to Aug 31 he had an ERA of 2.03 with a BAA of .164 and an OPSa of .497. Superlative stats until he faded. For the same time period Papelbon had an ERA of 2.80, BAA of 202, and an OPSa of .537. Bard pitched in more games that Papelbon did and got burned out IMO. I think he will do just fine as long as Dave Martinez doesn't overuse him this year.....OOPS! We haven't hired Martinez YET.

[jung]

So what the hell were the Sox supposed to do, match 4/50 for a closer plus vesting which is really 5/60? Gimme' a break. we need to get used to the idea that there may only be one team in baseball that can try to finance a legitimate run every year and it is not us. We don't have the revenue stream to do that.

 

Do you actually think it is some accident that the Sox busted the Luxury Tax threshold three years running around the 2007 WS. Further do you think it some chance occurrence that they worked their way all the way back down to 0% in 2009, 22.5 in 2010 and 0 again in 2011. This is a team that has to pick its spot to spend money and has to spend it wisely. They spent plenty in the years leading up to 2011 but did not spend it particularly well and now there is a penalty to pay for that. What is the penalty...basically a year where they simply cannot spend money like drunken sailors. Get over it.

[Spitball]

And a closer by committee approach works when you have multiple players with closer stuff rotating around a situation. Aside from Bard' date=' the sox don't have guys with the big arms or the filthy stuff just sitting out there in the pen or in the high minors. [/quote']

 

The Cardinals mainly used Salas, Motte, and Boggs as closers. None made much above minimum. None had traditional closer track records nor stuff. They were employed as hot hands.

 

World class closers have been pulled out of a lot of holes. Dennis Eckersley, Dave Reghetti, Joe Nathan, Tom Godan, John Wetteland, and Eric Gagne were former starters. Billy Koche, Todd Jones, Dave Weathers, Chad Cordero, and so many others were merely strike throwers.

 

Closers face the last batters. They can be the bottom of the order. Would a team invest $12 million or more on their best three pinch hitters?

[iortiz]

They lost the best GM the team has had and you applauded. If papelbon shuts down Baltimore twice then the sox are in the playoffs, yet he is the golden boy. I had to turn away from the set more often than not with Paps in close games.

 

It's a loss but how big a loss we do not yet know. Plus, there are some draft picks coming, no?

 

Oh E1 boy... As always you are twisting the things around. Epstain is gone because 3 years of horrible and pathetic results. It is not close to be Pap's case.

 

Last four years... Pap's performance as a closer >>>>Epstain's performance as a GM... Comprendes, Mendez?

 

Hell, you really love Theo Epstain. I knew it, but not this much.

[seabeachfred]

Quick, everybody, it is not December yet but the Sox hopes for 2012 are dashed! Everyone jump from this cliff over here!

 

I'm sad to see papelbon go. However the Sox should be able to reallocate that money elsewhere. Hopefully not into David Ortiz.

 

No one is poised to jump off the cliff Ex1 but what if the Red Sox DO resign Ortiz? The means Lavarnway gets blocked to the bench, back to Pawtucket where he shouldn't have to go or put into a platoon situation with Jarrod. Either of the three scenarious, his development is retarded. If they didn't sign Papelbon they shouldn't sign Ortiz either because not only does Lavarnway get blocked but we are hopelessly still a LH hitting team playing in a park tailored made for righthanded hitters. If Papi goes then Lavarnway gets his shot at DH and we can give RF to Kalish full time or into a platoon situation with someone not named Darling Darnell. It would make us a little more RH under those circumstances.

 

No closer by committee, though. We need a closer and will have to pay for one. We need that RH hitting outfielder and not Grady Sizemore, and we now need not two relievers besides a closer, we need AT LEAST TWO OF THEM. Cherington may earn his salary in the next month or two, but he has to start doing something very soon.

[jung]

No Ortiz please and I think if we do get a RH bat to platoon in RF we can also use him in what will become a DH rotation amongst players that are playing everyday and DHing with Lavarnway getting a fair amount of work at DH plus some catching.

 

However Cherington seems to be preparing us for signing Ortiz which means he is inclined to think he can get him even cheaper than anybody thought. Even then I don't want him but I think the Sox will because he will come so cheaply.

[iortiz]

No Ortiz please and I think if we do get a RH bat to platoon in RF we can also use him in what will become a DH rotation amongst players that are playing everyday and DHing with Lavarnway getting a fair amount of work at DH plus some catching.

 

However Cherington seems to be preparing us for signing Ortiz which means he is inclined to think he can get him even cheaper than anybody thought. Even then I don't want him but I think the Sox will because he will come so cheaply.

 

What do you mean with cheap?... I just lost the dimension of that word...

[jacksonianmarch]

The Cardinals mainly used Salas, Motte, and Boggs as closers. None made much above minimum. None had traditional closer track records nor stuff. They were employed as hot hands.

 

World class closers have been pulled out of a lot of holes. Dennis Eckersley, Dave Reghetti, Joe Nathan, Tom Godan, John Wetteland, and Eric Gagne were former starters. Billy Koche, Todd Jones, Dave Weathers, Chad Cordero, and so many others were merely strike throwers.

 

Closers face the last batters. They can be the bottom of the order. Would a team invest $12 million or more on their best three pinch hitters?

 

Motte throws 97-100mph and has a sick breaking ball. How does he not have closer stuff? Boggs and Salas got them by, but winning the WS requires you to have a good end guy. And I am not sure Bard is that guy for you guys

[jacksonianmarch]

Remember, most of us were very happy with how the Yankees pitching staff looked going into 2011.

 

That didn't matter one bit.

 

We saw a rookie strike thrower turn into a legit #2 and saw two scrap heap starters revive their careers. That isnt something you can count on. We got lucky

[jung]

No closer by committee, though. We need a closer and will have to pay for one. We need that RH hitting outfielder and not Grady Sizemore, and we now need not two relievers besides a closer, we need AT LEAST TWO OF THEM. Cherington may earn his salary in the next month or two, but he has to start doing something very soon.

 

Remember we need a #4 starter to slot in ahead of Aceves as well.

 

We need a #4 starter

We need a closer unless we move Bard to closer

We need either two new relievers or at least one reliever and one closer if we don't move Bard there

We need a RH, RF

 

We don't need a DH as those duties will be handled by the squad in total with Lavarnway getting a oood bit of the work.

[jacksonianmarch]

Here we go. Somebody get the f***ing chart out.

 

You can get the chart out all you want, you just lost your best reliever. How is that not a detriment to your team?