Phillies sign Papelbon

[SoxFanForsyth]

but again' date=' Who is better despite those "inconstancies" [b']TODAY[/b]?

 

I don't think you would see nearly as much of a drop off as you think if we 1. Let Bard close, or 2. Signed a guy like Heath Bell.

 

Papelbon was elite, and was the best closer that we've had in a long time. No doubt about it. I'm just saying, it's not like we're screwed and going to be a sub -.500 team next year. This sucks, but lets see what we add in lieu of Papelbon (be it an elite SP while making Bard the closer, or Heath Bell) before we throw the baby out with the bath water.

[SoxFanForsyth]

My question would be... Did Cherington even make a formal offer, or he was just waiting till Philli or someone makes a move in order to match it.

 

If no, Philli ate Cherington's lunch.

 

No formal offer. Philly came in quick and Pap didn't even give Cherington a chance to match offer. Just accepted, per reports.

 

Regardless, 4/50 for Pap with an option is too much money. He's not worth that much, and we can find someone who can do the job (Bell) for cheaper (3/24-30mm).

[MNSoxChief102]

It's fairly humorous that the same people who have bitched and moaned the most about the Crawford deal are now bitching and moaning the most about us not giving Pap a record breaking deal for an absurd amount of years for a closer.

 

Boston signs Crawford to a ridiculous deal: "omg Theo is so dumb, think about the long-term!"

 

Boston lets Papelbon sign elsewhere for a ridiculous deal: "omg Ben is so dumb, think about next season!"

[a700hitter]

Papelbon is elite. The only thing is that he was wildly inconsistent over the past 2 years. 1down year and an elite year in past 3. I wanted Pap back' date=' but at the same time, I understand the reasoning of not wanting to commit $50mm over 4 years to him.[/quote']Wildly inconsistent. He's had 1 bad year in his entire career, and about half the teams in baseball would have been happy with that year for their closer.

[User Name]

It's fairly humorous that the same people who have bitched and moaned the most about the Crawford deal are now bitching and moaning the most about us not giving Pap a record breaking deal for an absurd amount of years for a closer.

 

Boston signs Crawford to a ridiculous deal: "omg Theo is so dumb, think about the long-term!"

 

Boston lets Papelbon sign elsewhere for a ridiculous deal: "omg Ben is so dumb, think about next season!"

 

Hahaha that's so awesome and true.

[SoxSport]

:

I would not be crowing to loudly if I were a Yankee fan because all they managed to do was take double the revenue of every other major league baseball team, busting through the Luxury Tax limits like the bloated, belching deceased cow that they are and used it effectively enough to get waxed in the post season.

 

The playoffs are a crapshoot, and the Yankees were just plain unlucky in a 5 game series. But you look at the age of their team, and you wonder if age wasn't a factor as well for them in October.

 

Forget the $200 mil. Chickenfeed relative to their cable revenue. They probably can spend $250 mil, but that would be an embarrassment and just make the spending inequities in Baseball look worse.

[jung]

Well I like Pap for his attitude among other things but we might be criticizing him to much for his part in the end of season debacle in Baltimore and crediting him to much because he can read a calendar.

 

The only guys we had that could throw seemingly at all at the end of last year were Pap, Aceves and Bard as he started to come back out of his swoon a bit at the end. Those three guys were exhausted by the time they got to Baltimore. The failure of the Sox to make the post season was a team failure.

 

However how many examples of guys having big years in their contract years do we have to witness to figure out that they are playing for the contract as much as anything else.

[MNSoxChief102]

No formal offer. Philly came in quick and Pap didn't even give Cherington a chance to match offer. Just accepted, per reports.

 

Regardless, 4/50 for Pap with an option is too much money. He's not worth that much, and we can find someone who can do the job (Bell) for cheaper (3/24-30mm).

 

He wanted out. Given the chaos surrounding this team, I don't necessarily blame him. When Philly gave him that offer it was a no brainer to accept. Kind of like the Crawford deal last year. No one else was going to come close to it.

 

The Phillies are under as much if not more pressure to win NOW as the Red Sox are. Let's not forget that they were the unanimous pick to get to the Series last year and they didn't make it out of the first round with home field advantage and the best rotation in baseball. The fans in Philly will string Amaro up from the nearest lamp post if he doesn't make big moves this off-season.

[SoxSport]

My question would be... Did Cherington even make a formal offer, or he was just waiting till Philli or someone makes a move in order to match it.

 

If no, Philli ate Cherington's lunch.

 

My hunch is LL is running the show right now. When they give somebody his freedom, it's a sign they do not want him. Hello Theo, Tito and now Pap.

[iortiz]

No formal offer. Philly came in quick and Pap didn't even give Cherington a chance to match offer. Just accepted, per reports.

 

Regardless, 4/50 for Pap with an option is too much money. He's not worth that much, and we can find someone who can do the job (Bell) for cheaper (3/24-30mm).

 

I'm not sure if Cherington was intrested in Pap's services, BUT... since he tried "to match" Philli's offer my guess is that he was.

 

Said that, and since he didn't make a formal offer, Philli ate his lunch.

 

As you said, Hope that he bring a solid and healthy SP; Plus BP arms, pitching depth, OF and DH. He will need to be creative and tax part of the blame to Theo if we do not set up a solid team.

[User Name]

Red Sox fans have a new scapegoat:

 

His name is Ben Cherington.

[a700hitter]

No formal offer. Philly came in quick and Pap didn't even give Cherington a chance to match offer. Just accepted' date=' per reports.[/quote']and this in no way exonerates Ben the Boob. Based on his quote in the paper that he would understand if Paps accepted a deal that he couldn't turn down he was pretty clearly communicating to Papelbon that the Red Sox did not wanted to retain him.

 

Regardless, 4/50 for Pap with an option is too much money. He's not worth that much, and we can find someone who can do the job (Bell) for cheaper (3/24-30mm).

So it is a better bet to give a 3 year contract to a 34 year old than a 4 year contract to a 30 year old. I'm not seeing the logicm

[iortiz]

My hunch is LL is running the show right now. When they give somebody his freedom' date=' it's a sign they do not want him. Hello Theo, Tito and now Pap.[/quote']

 

Well if LL is the master of puppets, I wish he knows what he is f***ing doing letting go arguably the today's best closer in baseball.

[iortiz]

Red Sox fans have a new scapegoat:

 

His name is Ben Cherington.

 

Nahhh... I'm just starting to believe that he is just a puppet.

[MNSoxChief102]

Nahhh... I'm just starting to believe that he is just a puppet.

 

Cherington was here long before the current ownership... he was hired by Duquette in the mid-90s as a low level intern out of college. And those in the know have said he'll be nobody's puppet as GM. Ben worked his ass off to get his shot... and I suspect he'll do just fine.

 

Given the way Theo spent money in FA with reckless abandon and got burned more times than not as a result, I'll take a more conservative approach for a change.

[a700hitter]

It's fairly humorous that the same people who have bitched and moaned the most about the Crawford deal are now bitching and moaning the most about us not giving Pap a record breaking deal for an absurd amount of years for a closer.

 

Boston signs Crawford to a ridiculous deal: "omg Theo is so dumb, think about the long-term!"

 

Boston lets Papelbon sign elsewhere for a ridiculous deal: "omg Ben is so dumb, think about next season!"

What will not be funny will be if the GM turns out to have made the wrong decision in both cases.

 

I don't remember a lot of people moaning and complaining when Crawford got signed. There really wasn't a lot of griping about it. People started griping about it when it was painfully obvious that he was performing well below his career standards.

[iortiz]

Cherington was here long before the current ownership... he was hired by Duquette in the mid-90s as a low level intern out of college. And those in the know have said he'll be nobody's puppet as GM. Ben worked his ass off to get his shot... and I suspect he'll do just fine.

 

Given the way Theo spent money in FA with reckless abandon and got burned more times than not as a result, I'll take a more conservative approach for a change.

 

Trust me, I really hope. But Pap's case seems to me far to be called a good start.

 

We'll see.

[MNSoxChief102]

What will not be funny will be if the GM turns out to have made the wrong decision in both cases.

 

I don't remember a lot of people moaning and complaining when Crawford got signed. There really wasn't a lot of griping about it. People started griping about it when it was painfully obvious that he was performing well below his career standards.

 

Really? That's funny... I can remember plenty of people criticizing the deal big time when the numbers came out, yourself included. s***, you had it in your sig all season long... something to the effect of "Note to Theo: don't sign Crawford"

[User Name]

Cherington was here long before the current ownership... he was hired by Duquette in the mid-90s as a low level intern out of college. And those in the know have said he'll be nobody's puppet as GM. Ben worked his ass off to get his shot... and I suspect he'll do just fine.

 

Given the way Theo spent money in FA with reckless abandon and got burned more times than not as a result, I'll take a more conservative approach for a change.

 

You bring up a valid point. A lot of fans have spent every minute of every day since the Sox weere eliminated complaining about the way this FO has thrown money around on worthless players without doing "due dilligence" or just flat out not making a good investment on them.

 

So now that the FO seems to be thinking twice about throwing money around on a contract that, by all indications could be an enormous bust given the typical variability in reliever performance, those same fans are throwing a hissy-fit over the Red Sox letting Papelbon go.

 

You can't have it both ways. And the FO really does need to improve the way they evaluate FA's. Maybe this is the start of that.

[MNSoxChief102]

Trust me, I really hope. But Pap's case seems to me being far to be called a good start.

 

We'll see.

 

Pap wanted a record setting deal and the Phillies gave it to him. He also wanted out of the chaos that is Boston baseball right now. Hence the reason why he never gave the Sox a shot at matching that deal. He's going from a team in flux to a team that's loaded and primed to make a run deep into the post-season, provided they don't choke like they did last year (and the year before that).

 

The Sox would have probably gone three years at a higher AAV, but once it went to four years and $50 million, there was no way we were going to match. The Phillies overpaid to win now. The Sox tried that approach last year and it backfired. One step back, two steps forward is a much better way to do it.

[a700hitter]

What some people are not grasping here is that it is irrelevant how Bard performs in the closer's role in 2012. If he gets 50 saves with a 0.50 ERA, it will not vindicate Ben the Boob. It's not like losing Papelbon will give Bard the opportunity to pitch. It will only change his inning. If the

new 8th inning guy doesn't do as well as Bard, the late inning performance of the Pen will be very negatively.

[a700hitter]

What some people are not grasping here is that it is irrelevant how Bard performs in the closer's role in 2012. If he gets 50 saves with a 0.50 ERA, it will not vindicate Ben the Boob. It's not like losing Papelbon will give Bard the opportunity to pitch. It will only change his inning. If the

new 8th inning guy doesn't do as well as Bard, the late inning performance of the Pen will be very negatively.

[YAZMAN]

He also wanted out of the chaos that is Boston baseball right now.

 

The team's voice of reason, Mr. Stability, the epitome of decorum....please...

 

All this tells you is how markedly different the team is going to look next year. Fasten your seatbelts.

[MNSoxChief102]

The team's voice of reason, Mr. Stability, the epitome of decorum....please...

 

All this tells you is how markedly different the team is going to look next year. Fasten your seatbelts.

 

Fair point.

 

After last season's meltdown, change was needed. In a big way. I for one am glad to see it.

[MNSoxChief102]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/cherington-on-papelbon-ortiz-free-agents.html

 

Red Sox general manager Ben Cherington discussed a number of topics with reporters today, and WEEI.com's Rob Bradford has the details in these two posts. The hot stove highlights...

 

The Red Sox didn't make a formal offer to Jonathan Papelbon, who reached a four-year, $50MM agreement with the Phillies today. Cherington said he discussed "concepts" of a new contract with Papelbon's agents Sam and Seth Levinson, but didn't make an offer since Papelbon's asking price simply didn't fit into Boston's offseason plans.

 

Cherington said he wasn't given the option of matching the Phillies' offer by Papelbon's representatives, but he didn't think such a step was necessary.

 

Given the number of closing options on the market, Cherington didn't think his team would feel comfortable offering a four-year contract to a closer as the Phillies did with Papelbon.

 

The Red Sox have been talking to David Ortiz's representatives and Cherington said he wants to re-sign the veteran slugger. "Because of what I feel, and I think he feels, is a little bit more of a defined market for that role it's been easier to engage sooner," Cherington said. "It's probably less likely to be a situation where he gets into the market and there's something that he's pushed into a corner on. David knows we want him to be here. We want him to be back with the Red Sox. We want him in our lineup. We've had a lot of dialogue to see if there's a way to do that and I think that will continue."

 

Cherington feels that beyond the top free agent starters, there is "a lot of risk" in the pitching market this winter. "There are options, but riskier and would require some sort of bounce back from injury or bad luck or performance to some degree," the Boston GM said. "We're going to be exhaustive in looking at ways to build depth to the rotation an the bullpen. We do believe we have some internal options that will help us."

[MNSoxChief102]

One opinion on the Phillies-Papelbon marriage... for what it's worth

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove11/story/_/id/7220970/2011-mlb-free-agency-pitcher-jonathan-papelbon-signs-phillies

 

ESPN's Keith Law -- I thought signing Ryan Madson for four years and $44 million was a bad idea, even though he is the best free-agent reliever on the market, both short- and long-term. The history of signing relievers to deals of that length is simply too awful to ignore.

 

That contract would have been a bargain relative to the four-year deal the Phillies are about to give Jonathan Papelbon -- more money, plus a lost draft pick, for an inferior reliever who gives up more fly balls.

 

Papelbon was the second-best relief option on the market, but even in one of his best seasons in 2011, he was worth only two or three wins above replacement, and I'd put the over/under on his WAR for this deal at around eight, which would still make it a pretty bad contract. But the real issue with any reliever and with Papelbon specifically is high attrition rates -- relievers don't last, and their peaks tend to be short.

 

Papelbon has remade himself once after bottoming out with a fastball-only approach a few years ago, but even now he relies heavily on the hard but very flat four-seamer, which likely won't translate well to a good home run park in Philadelphia. (His career-low home run rate in 2011 wasn't going to last, anyway.) And Papelbon has worked limited innings, never reaching 70 in a season, probably the Red Sox's response to his 2006 shoulder injury.

 

The Phillies, as a team, threw 1,477 innings in 2011 and are now going to pay, on average, $12.5 million per year to Papelbon to throw maybe 4.5 percent of those. If they maintained that per-inning rate across their entire staff, they'd spend about $277 million on pitching alone. And since the ninth inning isn't always, or even often, the most leveraged inning in a game, this is a criminal misapplication of funds, not to mention the discarding of yet another first-round draft pick for the Phillies, whose farm system is depleted after a number of trades and other first-round picks lost for free-agent signings.

 

Madson remains the best reliever on the market, but the gap between him and the second-best option is much larger, and that should help him max out his value, although the Phillies might just be completely out of touch with the market for relievers and how a sane executive would rationally value the innings they provide.

 

As for the Red Sox, they pick up the Phillies' first-round pick, which would make it easier for them to use their own in signing a Type A free agent. They can slide Daniel Bard into the ninth inning -- I don't see his stuff or arm slot translating to the rotation -- and invest the money not spent there on shoring up their rotation.

[jung]

Wow, I thought they were going to cheap out for this year but they may even beat my expectations for taking the spend no money route.

 

Trying to bring back Papi makes little sense when he is just about the only vehicle they have to get at least one more RH bat in this lineup. They are making noise about signing him because he is getting nothing of interest in the FA market and they can get him cheap...I guess for this year a cheap bat is something they are interested in regardless of what side of the plate it is on.

 

The comment about pitching is even more bizarre. They are clearly not going to bid seriously for Wilson but they can't do nothing and he can't be serious about help from the minors at least for starters. I was calling for a younger, more spirited team for 2012 since they were clearly not going to try to really retool the team this year but I think we will see more young guys that even I expected.

 

People keep claiming that Cherington is simply trying to lower expectations with these comments of his and I agree that he is but in fact Sox actions appear to be matching his words.

 

Hopefully they are ready to be more active between 2012 and 2013.

[Spitball]

Papelbon was worth only two or three wins above replacement value. The Phillies seriously overpaid, and I am relieved the Sox did not try to match that offer. It is a positive step in the right direction.

 

The Cardinals won the World Series with basically a closer by committee that combined to make far less than Papelbon made last year. Why overpay for a closer? The Red Sox finally are making smart economic/baseball moves. Currently, they can't afford to just throw a bucket of money at a 30-something player and hope he will play at his current level for the duration of his overpriced contract.

[example1]

Quick, everybody, it is not December yet but the Sox hopes for 2012 are dashed! Everyone jump from this cliff over here!

 

I'm sad to see papelbon go. However the Sox should be able to reallocate that money elsewhere. Hopefully not into David Ortiz.

[a700hitter]

Quick, everybody, it is not December yet but the Sox hopes for 2012 are dashed! Everyone jump from this cliff over here!

 

I'm sad to see papelbon go. However the Sox should be able to reallocate that money elsewhere. Hopefully not into David Ortiz.

There are a lot of good things going on with this team. We are just this far from being a prominent team. Holds thumb and forefinger an inch apart.