2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[User Name]

As for Varitek and Wakefield, you are right, I really did expend a lot of energy worrying if those two were really going to be added to the team again. You know, the Yankees don't fool around like that. When Bernie Williams is done, when Jorge Posada is finished, when Tino Martinez is no longer contributing it is adios amigo. We need to do the same.

 

All of this is bull. They kept Posada and Williams way past their prime and they're paying a mediocre, near washed-up Jeter 17 million to play SS. Let's be "realistic" here.

[jung]

Smith's offensive numbers were somewhat enhanced the same as other speedy National League slap hitters of that era. I think the NL had 5 artificial turf fields in Smith's day including Busch in St. Louis. That would have put his turf games per year at something north of 120 games. I think Busch went back to grass Smith's last year in St. Louis or the year after.

 

It took infielders with terrific range just to get to balls bounced onto those infields. The ball often noticeably picked up speed. However the surface did reward slap hitters excessively. Smiths BB totals were not great for a guy that often had over 600 AB a season but the guys that really made a thing out of the slap hit on turf would just about swing at any pitch that gave them the opportunity to bounce the ball onto those surfaces. When viewing a game live on the stuff you would often see a "hit" and mutter to yourself "geez how does the infielder get an even break playing on this stuff". The advantage in true bounces never seeming as relevant to the fielder as the advantage in speed through the infield was to the hitter.

 

Smith's lateral speed and quickness were more of a defensive asset and his straight line speed was more of an offensive asset playing in the NL. Belander would likely not have been as highly regarded defensively if he played in the NL where getting that long angular frame of his moving into that first crossover step or moving laterally would have been more of an issue. Guys like Smith and Concepcion were well suited to those carpets. Another aspect of the carpet had many NL SS not often trying to throw the ball on the fly across the diamond preferring to place the ball a full bounce in front of the 1st baseman and trying to have the ball finish about knee high and in a really nice spot to meet the 1st baseman's stretch.

 

The surface murdered your legs though and many NL guys switched to the AL later in their careers to get off those carpets cause they just could not take it anymore. The bigger the player the worse the pounding. I think the AL had two turf fields at most at one point maybe three. Turf technology for most of that era was not great either and the sub-surfaces were hard as rock making them that much faster relative to natural grass as far as the speed of the ball on the surface and that much tougher on the legs.

 

If you look at a stat like hits (which takes walks and power out of the mix) for SS's from 1978 through 1992, the heart of Smith's career, at least 6 of the top 10 SS's come from the NL usually with 2 of the remaining AL SS coming from carpeted stadiums. In some years all 10 of the SS hits leaders are playing their home games on carpets. Smith regularly appears in that top 10 for hits in those years. In those 14 years I think I only found two years that were anomalies cutting the SS leaders for hits between AL and NL and in those two years one still had AL SS's that played their home games on the carpet appearing in the top 10. Hardly ever see one of the carpet boys blow you away with their OPS when comparing them to SS's playing the bulk of their games on grass but hits galore.

 

While Smith playing an average of 50 games a year on turf instead of 120 would have seen his offensive numbers much reduced I don't think it would have had much of an impact on his defensive prowess relative to other great SS. His absolute range was not as great on grass but his range relative to other SS's, even great SS's was still outrageous I think. I saw nothing in Smith's game to suggest that dealing with bad hops where some big weakness that would have changed our perception of his defensive skills and the Wiz did not have what I would call a weak arm.

[VA Sox Fan]

I like those nicknames and will use them occasionally. I know you don't but I also get the impression that you and a few others don't have a real sense of humor. I could be wrong on that but you shouldn't get worked up about those names. Carlos "Hi Ho" Silva? I kind of like that myself.

 

How everything shapes up on this board depends on how the team does this year, and, please Lyn Nay, don't tell me that trouble started when a few of us came on board here. I lurked here last year during the season and some of the stuff I saw on the game threads make anything I've seen on this one look like small potatoes indeed.

 

As for Varitek and Wakefield, you are right, I really did expend a lot of energy worrying if those two were really going to be added to the team again. You know, the Yankees don't fool around like that. When Bernie Williams is done, when Jorge Posada is finished, when Tino Martinez is no longer contributing it is adios amigo. We need to do the same.

 

Knock yourself out with the nicknames fred. I think iortiz likes and encourages them. He's a nice guy. I have a great sense of humor, always have and always will. My sense of humor differs from yours.

 

Trouble didn't start when you Sauxheads started posting, it got worse. IMHO. I believe other long time posters out here would agree. If they don't, as always, to each his own.

 

I don't care about the Yankees or how they handle things. I don't want the Red Sox to be like the NYY. They never have been, nor should they.

 

Stay healthy and quit stressing about things you have NO control over. As we all know, life is too short.

[VA Sox Fan]

He hasn't admitted it to me.

 

Imagine that? Sounds like some other folks who post out here.

[a700hitter]

Qualified SS' date=' which is playing time dependent. Overall, he was below average. [b']He just was. [/b] If anyone is stretching anything, it is you stretching the life of this irrelevant tangent.

i am glad you settled that issue with the bolded language.

[VA Sox Fan]

Thank you VA. I won't even bother replying to SBF even though I really want to. No need to create more s*** in this thread.

 

Cue the pessimistic post plz.

 

I'll always have your back you young ass punk!

[ORS]

i am glad you settled that issue with the bolded language.

Glad I could help.

[FredLynn]

This is perhaps the worst post I've seen on here for a long time.

 

Irrelevant.

Did you like the post I did where the ESPN analyst ranked the Sox farm system at #18? What you think about the quality of my posts could not concern me less. I do not post the kind of unsubstantiated drivel here that some people like to write.

[FredLynn]

That's not how it works. Rankings are updated a couple times a year because of big trades' date=' significant injuries and/or timeline (beginning of the season, mid-season, beginning of the year). While they do change from time to time, different writers tend to stay consistent with their rankings barring any of the above issues. They do not change on a near-weekly basis.[/quote']

 

Well, lets see. We have a #10, #11, #14, and a #18 to discuss later in the season. Maybe I will have the inclination to check and see if they are constant. As I recall they change with the weather.

[FredLynn]

Your problem young man is that you rail and go into a tizzy fit whenever someone posts something even mildly negative about the Red Sox---as if they are omnipotent and free from any inquiring and critical minds. Let me remind you how we sucked last September and how that ranked as the greatest folderoo in Major League history. Those are the facts and some of us remind you and others that our team is in dire need to a complete enema to cleanse the filth and detritus of 2011. Many of those here who make these points did NOT come over from Sawxheads for your information. Buckle down and read all the posts and keep abreast of what's going on down in Fort Myers. If you see the lazy replica of indifference and diffidence that we all saw last year cast a critical eye on the team and wake up to reality. If, OTOH, you see a new spirit, a new commitment, a desire to put 2011 behind them and a team that rallies together to go out and kick some serious butt, then rally us to get with the program because this is a new year and a new team.

 

And BTW, Pumpsie does know what he's talking about because I know the guy personally, consider him a friend, and took in a game with him back in 2010---and I usually know what I'm talking about.

 

Immature jerks like him are best ignored, either with the ignore button or manually, Fred. One day he might grow up and become an adult. We were all his age once and we all did and said some really stupid things. Fortunately, you and I and most everyone else in the world who were kids has matured and can carry on a discussion like adults. This guy does not yet have that ability. I generally ignore what he writes.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

LOL, I'm still liked more than both of you so I don't care what you think of me. FACT.

[VA Sox Fan]

Irrelevant.

Did you like the post I did where the ESPN analyst ranked the Sox farm system at #18? What you think about the quality of my posts could not concern me less. I do not post the kind of unsubstantiated drivel here that some people like to write.

 

Was that the same guy from ESPN posting about Jeremy Lin and " a chink in the armor"?

 

ESPN...lol:D

[jacksonianmarch]

All of this is bull. They kept Posada and Williams way past their prime and they're paying a mediocre' date=' near washed-up Jeter 17 million to play SS. Let's be "realistic" here.[/quote']

 

The Yankees always hold onto their players at least 1 season too long. I'd hardly say Jeter is washed up, but the rate at which they are paying is not due to his production, it's due to who he is. The one thing the Yankees typically do not do is re-sign a guy who has clearly lost it completely just for sentimental value. Jeter wasnt a complete dud when we re-signed him, although he looked to be heading in that direction. They let Bernie and Posada go when their deals were done and effectively told them to look elsewhere. The problem is, we sign these guys to such long term deals that they typically are DOA by the time the deal ends

[VA Sox Fan]

LOL' date=' I'm still liked more than both of you so I don't care what you think of me. FACT.[/quote']

 

'Tis true. You vent about posters who are 30-40 plus years older than you. You don't try to make them see how right you are.

[User Name]

The Yankees always hold onto their players at least 1 season too long. I'd hardly say Jeter is washed up' date=' but the rate at which they are paying is not due to his production, it's due to who he is. The one thing the Yankees typically do not do is re-sign a guy who has clearly lost it completely just for sentimental value. Jeter wasnt a complete dud when we re-signed him, although he looked to be heading in that direction. They let Bernie and Posada go when their deals were done and effectively told them to look elsewhere. The problem is, we sign these guys to such long term deals that they typically are DOA by the time the deal ends[/quote']

 

Good point, but it still renders Freds' moot.

[jung]

Tomorrow is the first day the whole team should be officially on site. I wonder if the arriving non-pitchers and catchers will actually practice on Tuesday or will that be their arrival and check in day only? Can't wait to see how/what the training schedule is going to look like. May not be that different but I still am sort of anxious to see what happens. Guess it will hold till Wednesday. Have to think the whole team is working out on a full schedule Wednesday.

[SoxSport]

I find it hard to believe that that is the only reason Francona wasn't hired. I do not find it hard to believe that Henry didn't want to give him a recommendation though. I would not have given him a good one either.

 

You have to also consider the Globe has focussed all the blame on the players, and said almost nothing about the management--except for making Henry look bad about Crawford. Not that Henry didn't look bad about Crawford.

 

But they haven't said a bad word about Tito's or Epstein's performances. Keep in mind that Theo has always been buddy-buddy with Gammons, ex-Globe writer, who did not get along with Duquette when he was in Boston. The Globe printed stories about Tito's prescription drug use and possible philandering, but never criticized him for the lax attitude on the Red Sox. Nor have they criticized Epstein's wasteful spending.

[jung]

Screw it.....time to see what they really have.....finally. I hope we get to see enough of the squads to really get a feel for some of these guys we will be depending on this season. At this point anything would be better than this torturous off-season.

[SoxSport]

Screw it.....time to see what they really have.....finally. I hope we get to see enough of the squads to really get a feel for some of these guys we will be depending on this season. At this point anything would be better than this torturous off-season.

 

Bobby said today there might be some surprises in the lineup. You have to wonder if Iglesias will get a look. Cafardo has suggested it. Hmm... Shoppach is another guy who might see more use than expected.

[jung]

Bobby said today there might be some surprises in the lineup. You have to wonder if Iglesias will get a look.

 

One thing I have not thought to ask in this whole Iggy discussion is where he went this winter. Does it make any sense to think that a guy his age with the work he needs to do just sat home? He must have played somewhere this winter. Maybe V knows something about his winter performance that has him thinking that Iggy has really made some progress. Heck that is at least a mystery that holds some promise for a change. Most of our mysteries are about much less interesting topics these days.

[seabeachfred]

All of this is bull. They kept Posada and Williams way past their prime and they're paying a mediocre' date=' near washed-up Jeter 17 million to play SS. Let's be "realistic" here.[/quote']

 

Posada was under contract and when it was up he was let go this year. Big difference. Wakefield and Varitek were "invited" to ST and offered minor league contracts. Big difference----and there is suspicion that if they had signed those ML contracts might have resulted in a big league contract by April. As for Williams his performance in his last year was light years above what Varitek and Wakefield put out. And as for Jeter, his situation is totally different. For one thing he can still play as he proved during the stretch drive last year. I also remember his solid play and hitting against the Sox that last series. Just ask Jon Lester. Besides, I can see another reason why the Yankees want to keep him around besides the fact that his play is still better than you think it is. HE IS A SURE HALL OF FAMER and for that reason alone I can see the Yankees cutting him a little more slack. Tek and Wake certainly are not HOFers by any stretch of the imagination. Let's be realistic from your end as well User.

[jung]

Jeter, Williams, Posada....Geez, I have enough trouble keeping track of our own washed up, over and done bums....Now I gotta keep track of somebody else's washed up, over and done bums too?

[jung]

Well while on the topic of Yankees past:

 

Wow, I don't think anybody here would likely be a member of the AJ Burnett fan club but did anybody see the Yankee official press release. Rare to begin with because usually a team provides some bio on a guy coming in but does not for a guy going out, leaving that end to the guy's new team. While I guess you can say this just shows how pissed off the Yanks are at Burnett, this seems pretty classless.

 

From the official Yankees press release:

 

In his three seasons with the club he went 34-35 with a 4.79 ERA (584.0IP, 311ER) in 99 games (98 starts). His 58 wild pitches recorded during his three-year stint with the Yankees (2009-11) were the most for any Major League pitcher over a three-season span since Tony Cloninger threw 62 wild pitches from 1964 through 1966, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. He posted an 11-11 record with a 5.15 ERA (190.1IP, 109ER) in 33 appearances (32GS) with the Yankees in 2011, setting career-highs in home runs allowed (31) and tying a career-high in earned runs allowed, while ranking first with a franchise-record 25 wild pitches – the most by any Major League pitcher in a single season since the start of the 2000s and the fifth most since 1900.

 

Talk about stretching a point to lay the guy out. How often does the great Tony Cloninger come up in discussion?

 

Regardless of how much I myself might grow to dislike a Red Sox player, I hope the Sox never stoop to this level to nail a guy. I would hope that we would always be better than this!

 

I suppose you could argue that the way the Sox handled Tito on the way out was bad but the Sox never made a formal press release including any of that information. The information got leaked and we assume it came from somebody in Sox Management because common sense would say it would have had to be have been somebody with access to Tito's medical or employment records. Even if that is the case that is nowhere near a club making a formal press release purposefully intended to nail a guy.

[mvp 78]

Aside from his remarks about batting 6-7th, I appreciated how CC was open and candid in interviews yesterday. I hope he can turn into a real team leader this year. There wasn't enough leadership last year and he has the pedigree to fill that need.

[BSN07]

Well while on the topic of Yankees past:

 

Wow, I don't think anybody here would likely be a member of the AJ Burnett fan club but did anybody see the Yankee official press release. Rare to begin with because usually a team provides some bio on a guy coming in but does not for a guy going out, leaving that end to the guy's new team. While I guess you can say this just shows how pissed off the Yanks are at Burnett, this seems pretty classless.

 

From the official Yankees press release:

 

In his three seasons with the club he went 34-35 with a 4.79 ERA (584.0IP, 311ER) in 99 games (98 starts). His 58 wild pitches recorded during his three-year stint with the Yankees (2009-11) were the most for any Major League pitcher over a three-season span since Tony Cloninger threw 62 wild pitches from 1964 through 1966, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. He posted an 11-11 record with a 5.15 ERA (190.1IP, 109ER) in 33 appearances (32GS) with the Yankees in 2011, setting career-highs in home runs allowed (31) and tying a career-high in earned runs allowed, while ranking first with a franchise-record 25 wild pitches – the most by any Major League pitcher in a single season since the start of the 2000s and the fifth most since 1900.

 

Talk about stretching a point to lay the guy out. How often does the great Tony Cloninger come up in discussion?

 

Regardless of how much I myself might grow to dislike a Red Sox player, I hope the Sox never stoop to this level to nail a guy. I would hope that we would always be better than this!

 

I suppose you could argue that the way the Sox handled Tito on the way out was bad but the Sox never made a formal press release including any of that information. The information got leaked and we assume it came from somebody in Sox Management because common sense would say it would have had to be have been somebody with access to Tito's medical or employment records. Even if that is the case that is nowhere near a club making a formal press release purposefully intended to nail a guy.

 

The Boston media is infamous for lighting guys on fire as they head out of town. I don't know why the media does this. They are like a jealous lover who just got dumped. Instead of just thanking them for the good times and sending them on their way, but instead they decide to drag up any and all negative details from their tenure and then blast the guy on the way out. I really dislike it. Not just for the Red Sox, but when any media outlet does it.

 

AJ was roughly a .500 W% 4.00 ERA SP when he came to town. He basically left the same. I guess they are torching him because the pinstripes didn't inhance his stat line while he was in town :dunno:

[Bellhorn04]

Posada was under contract and when it was up he was let go this year. Big difference. Wakefield and Varitek were "invited" to ST and offered minor league contracts. Big difference----and there is suspicion that if they had signed those ML contracts might have resulted in a big league contract by April. As for Williams his performance in his last year was light years above what Varitek and Wakefield put out. And as for Jeter' date=' his situation is totally different. For one thing he can still play as he proved during the stretch drive last year. I also remember his solid play and hitting against the Sox that last series. Just ask Jon Lester. Besides, I can see another reason why the Yankees want to keep him around besides the fact that his play is still better than you think it is. HE IS A SURE HALL OF FAMER and for that reason alone I can see the Yankees cutting him a little more slack. Tek and Wake certainly are not HOFers by any stretch of the imagination. Let's be realistic from your end as well User.[/quote']

 

Fred, one thing you overlook is that Varitek and Wakefield were not being paid much money their last 2 years here. Varitek made 5 million total and Wakefield made 5.5 million total for those 2 years. That's a grand total of 10.5 million for 4 man-seasons. The Yankees paid Posada 13 million last year to DH.

 

The Red Sox have been more cold-blooded about this than you give them credit for. Varitek and Wakefield could only stick around if they were willing to take pay cuts and to be used however the club saw fit-Tek as a backup catcher, Wake as a depth starter/mopup/whatever.

[mvp 78]

It took infielders with terrific range just to get to balls bounced onto those infields. The ball often noticeably picked up speed.

This brings tears to Bill Nye. Physics 101 has been defeated by astroturf.

[Muggah]

The Boston media is infamous for lighting guys on fire as they head out of town. I don't know why the media does this. They are like a jealous lover who just got dumped. Instead of just thanking them for the good times and sending them on their way, but instead they decide to drag up any and all negative details from their tenure and then blast the guy on the way out. I really dislike it. Not just for the Red Sox, but when any media outlet does it.

 

AJ was roughly a .500 W% 4.00 ERA SP when he came to town. He basically left the same. I guess they are torching him because the pinstripes didn't inhance his stat line while he was in town :dunno:

 

"The Boston media is infamous for lighting guys on fire as they head out of town. I don't know why the media does this."

 

We've been over this. The vast majority of smear campaigns aimed at players leaving town are generated from the Sox FO and ownership. Stop blaming the media for it. If you have a question as to why this FO and ownership group continuously engages in such petty and unprofessional behavior---ask them.

[a700hitter]

The Boston media is infamous for lighting guys on fire as they head out of town. I don't know why the media does this. They are like a jealous lover who just got dumped. Instead of just thanking them for the good times and sending them on their way, but instead they decide to drag up any and all negative details from their tenure and then blast the guy on the way out. I really dislike it. Not just for the Red Sox, but when any media outlet does it.

In every single case the FO hands the media the matches. They are not coming up with these stories out of thin air.

[BSN07]

"The Boston media is infamous for lighting guys on fire as they head out of town. I don't know why the media does this."

 

We've been over this. The vast majority of smear campaigns aimed at players leaving town are generated from the Sox FO and ownership. Stop blaming the media for it. If you have a question as to why this FO and ownership group continuously engages in such petty and unprofessional behavior---ask them.

 

The smear campaigns have been going on since I can remember, and that's long before this ownership group was at the healm. The common factor is the Boston media. Not saying the FO is 100% innocent. But it's been going on for awhile.

 

You really have a hardon for this ownership group. Have they wronged you in some sort of way? Did them making the Red Sox a winning organization have some adverse effect on your personality? Where you so used to them losing it became part of you and now they have won and changed the culture and now that part of you has been taken away or something? It's like all you guys used to do is complain they didn't win. Then they won, and it seems to have caused some sort of identity chrisis for a certain group of fans. They won, and now it's like omg what do I complain about? That's all I have ever known! Not being able to complain about the team gave you nothing to be salty towards. You probably stemmed the flow by calling out "pink hats" and this sort of thing, but now that they have lost 2 years in a row, it's like you have rediscovered yourself and have gone back to where your most comfortable. Some of you act like this ownership group has run this franchise into the ground. Why not take a step back and go, thank f***ing Christ Mccourt didn't get the winning bid for this team. Or how about being thankful the Wilpon's aren't in charge. I just don't get why some get so upset with the owners. Are they perfect? No. Are they better then most? Yes. If you don't think so, go surf around some Royal, Pirates, O's, Guardians, Mariners, Athletic, Astro forums and ask if they would take Henry and Co. over what they have now. Some would probably offer their left testicle.