2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

I'm looking at positional wRAA, weighted Runs Above Average for his position. He was below average over his career. And, he is, like it or not, the most common example used to consider light hitting defensive wizards at the SS position. I've already said the archetype doesn't fit him perfectly, but it is what it is. It's not what "I" think he is, it's how he is commonly used in conversation on the topic.

 

Are you denying this is the case? If not, this is a semantical argument where we are not in disagreement.

During his Cardinal years, his yearly WAR attributable to batting was well within the top half of Shortstops. Several seasons he was in the top few at his position, perennially trailing Ripken but few others.

[FredLynn]

This is from Feb 8, 2012, by Keith Law, ESPN analyst:

 

Keith Law of ESPN has released his farm system rankings. You need an ESPN Insider subscription to see anything besides the fact that former Red Sox assistant general manager Jed Hoyer, with help another former Sox staffer in Jason McLeod, brought the Padres to first overall, but we can at least give you a taste of it. It's absolutely worth reading the whole thing, of course, to get a sense of where the rest of the league is.

 

The Red Sox rank 18 out of 30 -- not too shabby, considering they lack any kind of elite talent at the upper levels thanks to trades for Victor Martinez, Adrian Gonzalez, and others the past few years.

[ORS]

The truth of the matter is that ALL of those rankings change almost weekly' date=' certainly every month, during the season. Its not a static assessment. I do not view the Red Sox farm system as "Good" right now, partly because of the talent level overall, and partly because there simply aren't enough high quality pitchers to help us in the most needy area for the team. We are going to have to buy our pitchers for the foreseeable future, and thats very expensive.[/quote']

Filling pretty much any portion of the roster, other than the bench or back of the bullpen, with FA talent is expensive. This is what you do if you are big market team. You fill the gaps where the system was not productive with talent from the FA pool. The fact that the Sox system is deep in position players, a significant amount of payroll clears the books next year, and next year's FA SP market is full of good, young pitchers is kind of a fortunate set of circumstances.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Yankees trade some of their good, young prospect pitchers to obtain one of those pitchers at the TDL for the playoff push and to obtain exclusive rights to negotiate a contract extension. In fact, I think they'd be stupid not to.

[ORS]

During his Cardinal years' date=' his yearly WAR attributable to batting was well within the top half of Shortstops. Several seasons he was in the top few at his position, perennially trailing Ripken but few others.[/quote']

I've already acknowledged the good stretch in the middle of his career. How else do you want me to say it?

[jacksonianmarch]

Filling pretty much any portion of the roster, other than the bench or back of the bullpen, with FA talent is expensive. This is what you do if you are big market team. You fill the gaps where the system was not productive with talent from the FA pool. The fact that the Sox system is deep in position players, a significant amount of payroll clears the books next year, and next year's FA SP market is full of good, young pitchers is kind of a fortunate set of circumstances.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Yankees trade some of their good, young prospect pitchers to obtain one of those pitchers at the TDL for the playoff push and to obtain exclusive rights to negotiate a contract extension. In fact, I think they'd be stupid not to.

 

They have to start moving a few. We've got quite a glut in AAA and it only gets worse with the kids behind them

[seabeachfred]

And the guys who call him Blunder and Inepstein are also the guys who say Francona was a lousy manager who cost 5-10 games a year. Which would put us at 95-100 wins every year of Epstein's tenure. I love that part.

 

Do you also love the part of your boy Francona getting his ass canned by the team because he lost the clubhouse in September, didn't have the team prepared to open the regular season, treated Spring Training last year like it was a country club and is on the managerial unemployment line this season after being rejected by the Cardinals for another person who never managed before? Check with Muggah, he kept a running account of the games your Terry might have cost us with his less than adroit managerial skills in the dugout.

 

Look, we don't have to belabor this point any longer here. We're on another board and what we argued about last September was settled when your pals fled to form that echo chamber they now have. Francona is gone, Epstein is gone but the damage they wrought will be difficult to dig ourselves out from. The s*** we hurled at each other last season should die because this is a new venue for both of us and we should be looking to the future instead of the past.

[jacksonianmarch]

Do you also love the part of your boy Francona getting his ass canned by the team because he lost the clubhouse in September, didn't have the team prepared to open the regular season, treated Spring Training last year like it was a country club and is on the managerial unemployment line this season after being rejected by the Cardinals for another person who never managed before? Check with Muggah, he kept a running account of the games your Terry might have cost us with his less than adroit managerial skills in the dugout.

 

Look, we don't have to belabor this point any longer here. We're on another board and what we argued about last September was settled when your pals fled to form that echo chamber they now have. Francona is gone, Epstein is gone but the damage they wrought will be difficult to dig ourselves out from. The s*** we hurled at each other last season should die because this is a new venue for both of us and we should be looking to the future instead of the past.

 

You know why Francona wasnt hired by StL right? John Henry wouldnt vouch for him or even return a phone call on his behalf. That's why StL didnt hire him. I find it underhanded that Henry wouldnt at least pick up the phone and put a good word in for the guy who skippered the sox to their first 2 titles since 1918

[a700hitter]

I've already acknowledged the good stretch in the middle of his career. How else do you want me to say it?

I am not just referring to the stretch in the middle of his career. I am referring to all of his Cardinal years-- 1982-1996. He was well within the top half of Shortstops almost every season for batting related WAR. That's a long stretch, which makes it a long stretch to call him a below average offensive SS.

[a700hitter]

You know why Francona wasnt hired by StL right? John Henry wouldnt vouch for him or even return a phone call on his behalf. That's why StL didnt hire him. I find it underhanded that Henry wouldnt at least pick up the phone and put a good word in for the guy who skippered the sox to their first 2 titles since 1918

Is that true? I hadn't heard that. That is more than a little petty.

[VA Sox Fan]

You know why Francona wasnt hired by StL right? John Henry wouldnt vouch for him or even return a phone call on his behalf. That's why StL didnt hire him. I find it underhanded that Henry wouldnt at least pick up the phone and put a good word in for the guy who skippered the sox to their first 2 titles since 1918

 

Where did you hear that about Henry etc?

[seabeachfred]

I've seen "Putritek" a few teams. High comedy.

 

I gave him that name on another board in salutation for his miserable play from 2008 through last season. Here's hoping I never have to use it again....if you get my drift.

[jacksonianmarch]

Where did you hear that about Henry etc?

 

EEI this am. They got it from Cafardo

[seabeachfred]

If he doesn't make the Nomar trade and sign Schilling' date=' they don't win in 04.[/quote']

 

Very true MVP but if he doesn't put on that gorilla suit in the fall of 2005 and not return for a few months we don't win the WS in 2007. Force yourself to remember that the trade for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell were done while he was away and was done by Bill Lajoie. Epstein said upon return THAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE MADE THAT TRADE....and that means if he was still in command at that particular time we wouldn't have had those two players, and without those two's accomplishements in 2007 we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the WS that year. Just putting Theo in perspective.

[FredLynn]

EEI this am. They got it from Cafardo

 

I find it hard to believe that that is the only reason Francona wasn't hired. I do not find it hard to believe that Henry didn't want to give him a recommendation though. I would not have given him a good one either.

[User Name]

But the Bleacher Report is unreliable, right?

Thrilled to see that we are at the 10th position rather than the 11th position. Not so thrilled that our hitting prospects have more potential than our pitching prospects because pitching is our major weakness right now; our hitting is decent. Maybe we could trade some of those hitters for a good SP.

 

Did you not just see the post saying that Bleacher report is regurgitating Sickel's rankings? How is a site that can be edited by pretty much anyone and that copies content reliable?

 

I understand the reason why Law has the Red Sox much lower in his rankings, given his admitted love for readiness instead of potential, but even he doesn't deny the fact that the Sox' farm is brimming with just that: Potential.

[FredLynn]

Did you not just see the post saying that Bleacher report is regurgitating Sickel's rankings? How is a site that can be edited by pretty much anyone and that copies content reliable?

 

I understand the reason why Law has the Red Sox much lower in his rankings, given his admitted love for readiness instead of potential, but even he doesn't deny the fact that the Sox' farm is brimming with just that: Potential.

 

Check the rankings again in a few weeks. Chances are they will be much different. There is no one truth to them; everyone has an opinion. I am concerned at the lack of good pitching there. Position players are easier to get and cheaper than good pitching, overall.

[User Name]

Check the rankings again in a few weeks. Chances are they will be much different. There is no one truth to them; everyone has an opinion. I am concerned at the lack of good pitching there. Position players are easier to get and cheaper than good pitching' date=' overall.[/quote']

 

That's not how it works. Rankings are updated a couple times a year because of big trades, significant injuries and/or timeline (beginning of the season, mid-season, beginning of the year). While they do change from time to time, different writers tend to stay consistent with their rankings barring any of the above issues. They do not change on a near-weekly basis.

[seabeachfred]

I don't remember that at all. If they did' date=' it was moronic. Even after Ells breakout season it would still be moronic to make that comparison.[/quote']

 

I remember it 700---and the culprit was Red Sox icon Johnny Pesky who said that after the 2007 season. Many of us were then on Dirt Dogs and the argument was whether the Red Sox should now go with Ells at the regular CF or keep Crisp around for competition. The next year Coco was gone and some of us said a mini Ted Williams must not be blocked a second more. None of us thought we was another Spendid Splinter but it gave the Ells camp a potent weapon in insisting that Crisp must go and Ells must be installed in CF permanently. Pesky got carried away by the emotion of what Jacoby did in the ALCS when he finally got his shot and what he accomplished in the WS.

 

I give Johnny a full pass on that.

[VA Sox Fan]

I gave him that name on another board in salutation for his miserable play from 2008 through last season. Here's hoping I never have to use it again....if you get my drift.

 

Here's hoping that you attempt to keep those nicknames on the other Red Sox board(s) you all post on.

[seabeachfred]

It wouldn't make a difference. Everyone quotes you to tell you how wrong you are and I'd still be reading your post. Besides' date=' I'd still have to deal with the rest of the lame ass Sauxheads or whatever the f*** you guys came from crew.[/quote']

 

Your problem young man is that you rail and go into a tizzy fit whenever someone posts something even mildly negative about the Red Sox---as if they are omnipotent and free from any inquiring and critical minds. Let me remind you how we sucked last September and how that ranked as the greatest folderoo in Major League history. Those are the facts and some of us remind you and others that our team is in dire need to a complete enema to cleanse the filth and detritus of 2011. Many of those here who make these points did NOT come over from Sawxheads for your information. Buckle down and read all the posts and keep abreast of what's going on down in Fort Myers. If you see the lazy replica of indifference and diffidence that we all saw last year cast a critical eye on the team and wake up to reality. If, OTOH, you see a new spirit, a new commitment, a desire to put 2011 behind them and a team that rallies together to go out and kick some serious butt, then rally us to get with the program because this is a new year and a new team.

 

And BTW, Pumpsie does know what he's talking about because I know the guy personally, consider him a friend, and took in a game with him back in 2010---and I usually know what I'm talking about.

[User Name]

Try not to stretch a muscle patting your own back there, Fred.

[VA Sox Fan]

EEI this am. They got it from Cafardo

 

If that's true then it's Henry with one of his worst moments, ever.

 

I felt that Tito should take some time off from managing anyway. I wish him nothing but the best. Far from perfect but far from the "comatose" manager some wish to accuse him of being during his Red Sox tenure. Nothing anyone posts will change my mind. As always, to each his own.

[Palodios]

We are middle of the pack, at best. Both of our major competitors in the ALE rank far ahead of us. If middle of the pack is "good" then sure, we have a "good" farm system. I prefer top third or better before I call it "good".

 

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/10/2011-farm-system-rankings/

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/834247-mlb-power-rankings-rating-every-mlb-farm-system#/articles/1071951-mlb-free-agency-grading-every-teams-offseason-heading-to-spring-training

 

This is perhaps the worst post I've seen on here for a long time.

[VA Sox Fan]

Your problem young man is that you rail and go into a tizzy fit whenever someone posts something even mildly negative about the Red Sox---as if they are omnipotent and free from any inquiring and critical minds. Let me remind you how we sucked last September and how that ranked as the greatest folderoo in Major League history. Those are the facts and some of us remind you and others that our team is in dire need to a complete enema to cleanse the filth and detritus of 2011. Many of those here who make these points did NOT come over from Sawxheads for your information. Buckle down and read all the posts and keep abreast of what's going on down in Fort Myers. If you see the lazy replica of indifference and diffidence that we all saw last year cast a critical eye on the team and wake up to reality. If, OTOH, you see a new spirit, a new commitment, a desire to put 2011 behind them and a team that rallies together to go out and kick some serious butt, then rally us to get with the program because this is a new year and a new team.

 

And BTW, Pumpsie does know what he's talking about because I know the guy personally, consider him a friend, and took in a game with him back in 2010---and I usually know what I'm talking about.

 

Can you attempt to quit telling us how much you and the other Saxheads folks know? We DO NOT CARE that you all know each other personally. We do not care that you all can vouch for each other. We are not going to take your word for it. All we care about is what is posted out here.

 

Please keep your back-patting to the other 2-5 Red Sox forums you all post on. I'm happy for you all. It's sweet how you defend each other constantly. Don't you spend more time defending one another than anything else? There is a reason for that.

 

You wasted so much time and energy ranting and raving about Tek and Wake coming to ST. You were wrong and admitted it. Was it really worth all of the stress? I know you are retired and all but try being patient. You were a broken record about a non-issue. PATIENCE.

 

Leave RSFFL alone.

[User Name]

Can you attempt to quit telling us how much you and the other Saxheads folks know? We DO NOT CARE that you all know each other personally. We do not care that you all can vouch for each other. We are not going to take your word for it. All we care about is what is posted out here.

 

Please keep your back-patting to the other 2-5 Red Sox forums you all post on. I'm happy for you all. It's sweet how you defend each other constantly. Don't you spend more time defending one another than anything else? There is a reason for that.

 

You wasted so much time and energy ranting and raving about Tek and Wake coming to ST. You were wrong and admitted it. Was it really worth all of the stress? I know you are retired and all but try being patient. You were a broken record about a non-issue. PATIENCE.

 

Leave RSFFL alone.

 

He hasn't admitted it to me.

[seabeachfred]

You know why Francona wasnt hired by StL right? John Henry wouldnt vouch for him or even return a phone call on his behalf. That's why StL didnt hire him. I find it underhanded that Henry wouldnt at least pick up the phone and put a good word in for the guy who skippered the sox to their first 2 titles since 1918

 

Didn't know that Jacko. If what you say is true then Henry is nothing more than a miserable ungrateful son of a bitch. I'm no Francona fan as everyone knows but to do something like that to him is beyond the pale. Then I have never had that big a regard for Henry in the first place. On another board I refer to him as Prune Face.

[ORS]

I am not just referring to the stretch in the middle of his career. I am referring to all of his Cardinal years-- 1982-1996. He was well within the top half of Shortstops almost every season for batting related WAR. That's a long stretch' date=' which makes it a long stretch to call him a below average offensive SS.[/quote']

 

Qualified SS, which is playing time dependent. Overall, he was below average. He just was. If anyone is stretching anything, it is you stretching the life of this irrelevant tangent.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Thank you VA. I won't even bother replying to SBF even though I really want to. No need to create more s*** in this thread.

 

Cue the pessimistic post plz.

[seabeachfred]

Here's hoping that you attempt to keep those nicknames on the other Red Sox board(s) you all post on.

 

I like those nicknames and will use them occasionally. I know you don't but I also get the impression that you and a few others don't have a real sense of humor. I could be wrong on that but you shouldn't get worked up about those names. Carlos "Hi Ho" Silva? I kind of like that myself.

 

How everything shapes up on this board depends on how the team does this year, and, please Lyn Nay, don't tell me that trouble started when a few of us came on board here. I lurked here last year during the season and some of the stuff I saw on the game threads make anything I've seen on this one look like small potatoes indeed.

 

As for Varitek and Wakefield, you are right, I really did expend a lot of energy worrying if those two were really going to be added to the team again. You know, the Yankees don't fool around like that. When Bernie Williams is done, when Jorge Posada is finished, when Tino Martinez is no longer contributing it is adios amigo. We need to do the same.

[ORS]

You know why Francona wasnt hired by StL right? John Henry wouldnt vouch for him or even return a phone call on his behalf. That's why StL didnt hire him. I find it underhanded that Henry wouldnt at least pick up the phone and put a good word in for the guy who skippered the sox to their first 2 titles since 1918

Isn't it equally underhanded to vouch for someone you don't think is fit for the job? Not saying I agree, but Henry is entitled to his opinion on this, and if this is his opinion, I think phony recommendation is worse.