2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Then put me on ignore. Both of us will feel better.

 

It wouldn't make a difference. Everyone quotes you to tell you how wrong you are and I'd still be reading your post. Besides, I'd still have to deal with the rest of the lame ass Sauxheads or whatever the f*** you guys came from crew.

[a700hitter]

Come on 700...by the logic some use here, Ellsbury=Ted Williams and Jose Iglesias=Ozzie Smith.

Thats because they play for the RED SOX!

The hyperbole is ridiculous. They jump to comparing him to the greatest fielding SS of all time. I'll do cartwheels if he is as good as Elvis Andrus.

[example1]

Right now our minor league system does not contain the kind of talent that will produce impact players in the majors. Who is really down there that will make the same impact as Ellsbury and Youkilis and Bard right now? When Theo left he left us a minor league system that is severely lacking.

 

I'll give you a bunch of names who could have a similar level of production: Middlebrooks, Boegarts, Coyle, Brentz, Jacobs, Ranaudo, Barnes, Swihart, Lavarnway, Cecchini, Britton, Kalish, Pimentel... just off the top of my head. I bet half of those guys will be MLB'ers at some point in their career.

 

Just because they aren't on the threshold of being in the majors today doesn't mean they don't have a good system. They do.

 

Remember, Youkilis, Bard and Ellsbury all had holes in their games at some point of their development. All you have to do is go back and read all of a700hitter's prognostications about their future to realize that they were anything but a sure thing.

 

Hell, most people on this board are currently treating Bard like he's a chump going out there for the 4th spot in the rotation, rather than him having one of the best arms in all of baseball. Pessimism is pervasive.

[example1]

The hyperbole is ridiculous. They jump to comparing him to the greatest fielding SS of all time. I'll do cartwheels if he is as good as Elvis Andrus.

 

 

Do you remember when I said you were creating a strawman, and you got defensive? This is why. To me, you hold your hands out and say "what, me? I'm not doing any of those things you say I am." And then you turn around and jump right back into it.

[example1]

I don't remember that at all. If they did' date=' it was moronic. Even after Ells breakout season it would still be moronic to make that comparison.[/quote']

 

This is true. Ellsbury and Williams? That's silly.

[a700hitter]

Who cares about Theo. He's gone. He left our roster and payroll with little or no flexibility for 2012. We had to get rid of our SS for payroll reasons. Theo's last chapter with the Sox will not be written until his last group of prospects develop into whatever they are going to develop into.

 

He'll get to prove himself in Chicago. He has plenty of resources and he'll get to build that team fm the ground up, because they have nothing at the major league roster. When he came to Boston, he came to a team stocked with stars. In 3 years, we'll see how good he really is.

[Emmz]

Ellsbury. Pedroia. Youkilis. Papelbon. Bard. Buchholz. Gonzalez. Beckett. Drafting developing and trading we're 3 things that Theo was excellent at. His drafting and trades completely outweighs his FA busts. But you fail to realize this because you're making a completely biased comment.

 

And in terms of Iglesias, the mere fact that you believe you are talented enough to be a talent evaluator and that the evaluators are just guessing just proves your ignorance abou prospects. Nobody was trying to put him in the hall of fame, it was a comparison based on his talent level and how he projects as a player. But you always take things to the extreme. Will he be as good as Ozzie Smith? Maybe. What we do know is that his defense is elite elite, and it will make up for the lack of offense. Just like Ozzie Smith had a .573 OPS in his first four combined seasons and in those seasons, was an All Star, won 2 gold gloves, and came in 2nd in the Rookie of the Year.

 

I know this is going to make your head spin but just try to keep up. A defensive wizard playing up the middle can affect the game just as much with his glove as he can with his bat. Making big plays not only keeps baserunners down, it keeps pitch counts down, and preserves the bullpen.

Pumpsie's just splitting hairs, you're wasting your time. Good post though.

[a700hitter]

 

Do you remember when I said you were creating a strawman, and you got defensive? This is why. To me, you hold your hands out and say "what, me? I'm not doing any of those things you say I am." And then you turn around and jump right back into it.

I'd still like to know what argument I am refuting with this so-called strawman. I am not saying, "who me?" I am saying I don't understand what you are saying. What am I trying to refute?

[a700hitter]

 

Do you remember when I said you were creating a strawman, and you got defensive? This is why. To me, you hold your hands out and say "what, me? I'm not doing any of those things you say I am." And then you turn around and jump right back into it.

What argument am I making or refuting other than to say it is ridiculous to compare minor league kids to Ozzie Smith or Ted Williams. That's not a straw man. Do we have a chubby kid in the system? Maybe we could liken him to Babe Ruth.

 

Edit: Seriously, I think if I posted that today is Monday, you would start your reply with: "that's always the way it is with you, a700":lol:

[SoxFanForsyth]

What argument am I making or refuting other than to say it is ridiculous to compare minor league kids to Ozzie Smith or Ted Williams. That's not a straw man. Do we have a chubby kid in the system? Maybe we could liken him to Babe Ruth.

 

Edit: Seriously, I think if I posted that today is Monday, you would start your reply with: "that's always the way it is with you, a700":lol:

 

I agree. It would be insane for posters to compare Iglesias to Ozzie Smith IF he has not been been compared to him by multiple talent evaluators. But the fact that he is consistently being compared to Ozzie means that it's not a crazy comparison. These are evaluators who go watch minor league players each and every day of work. They get paid to do this. For us to refute their analysis based solely on about 13 games where we see him play is ridiculous. So, since we all have jobs and can't leave and follow the Red Sox minor leaguers to every game that they play and devise a point system to derive a calculated talent level and then compare that to Ozzie Smith, we trust the evaluators who do have the point system and analysis. And it would be one thing if it was a random no name evaluator who likened Iggys play to Ozzie Smith, but it's a consistent comparison among multiple evaluators.

[mvp 78]

This is true. Ellsbury and Williams? That's silly.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying I agreed with the assessment, just that it happened.

[FredLynn]

It wouldn't make a difference. Everyone quotes you to tell you how wrong you are and I'd still be reading your post. Besides' date=' I'd still have to deal with the rest of the lame ass Sauxheads or whatever the f*** you guys came from crew.[/quote']

 

Your age is showing. And along with it, your immaturity. Maybe one day you will become an adult.

[FredLynn]

I'll give you a bunch of names who could have a similar level of production: Middlebrooks, Boegarts, Coyle, Brentz, Jacobs, Ranaudo, Barnes, Swihart, Lavarnway, Cecchini, Britton, Kalish, Pimentel... just off the top of my head. I bet half of those guys will be MLB'ers at some point in their career.

 

Just because they aren't on the threshold of being in the majors today doesn't mean they don't have a good system. They do.

 

Remember, Youkilis, Bard and Ellsbury all had holes in their games at some point of their development. All you have to do is go back and read all of a700hitter's prognostications about their future to realize that they were anything but a sure thing.

 

Hell, most people on this board are currently treating Bard like he's a chump going out there for the 4th spot in the rotation, rather than him having one of the best arms in all of baseball. Pessimism is pervasive.

 

We are middle of the pack, at best. Both of our major competitors in the ALE rank far ahead of us. If middle of the pack is "good" then sure, we have a "good" farm system. I prefer top third or better before I call it "good".

 

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/10/2011-farm-system-rankings/

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/834247-mlb-power-rankings-rating-every-mlb-farm-system#/articles/1071951-mlb-free-agency-grading-every-teams-offseason-heading-to-spring-training

[FredLynn]

I agree. It would be insane for posters to compare Iglesias to Ozzie Smith IF he has not been been compared to him by multiple talent evaluators. But the fact that he is consistently being compared to Ozzie means that it's not a crazy comparison. These are evaluators who go watch minor league players each and every day of work. They get paid to do this. For us to refute their analysis based solely on about 13 games where we see him play is ridiculous. So' date=' since we all have jobs and can't leave and follow the Red Sox minor leaguers to every game that they play and devise a point system to derive a calculated talent level and then compare that to Ozzie Smith, we trust the evaluators who do have the point system and analysis. And it would be one thing if it was a random no name evaluator who likened Iggys play to Ozzie Smith, but it's a consistent comparison among multiple evaluators.[/quote']

 

Iglesias will be lucky to crack the major leagues.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We are middle of the pack, at best. Both of our major competitors in the ALE rank far ahead of us. If middle of the pack is "good" then sure, we have a "good" farm system. I prefer top third or better before I call it "good".

 

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/10/2011-farm-system-rankings/

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/834247-mlb-power-rankings-rating-every-mlb-farm-system#/articles/1071951-mlb-free-agency-grading-every-teams-offseason-heading-to-spring-training

 

Ohhhhhh. Now it ALLLLL makes sense.

 

Talent evaluators are pure s*** and their opinions are just guesses, but citing an article from bleacher report is a credible source.

 

Hahahahahahaha. Dude. Are. You. Serious. Man. I can't say anything could possibly make you look any worse than you just made yourself look. Wow. Thank you for that.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Iglesias will be lucky to crack the major leagues.

 

Uh. He already has.

[FredLynn]

Ohhhhhh. Now it ALLLLL makes sense.

 

Talent evaluators are pure s*** and their opinions are just guesses, but citing an article from bleacher report is a credible source.

 

Hahahahahahaha. Dude. Are. You. Serious. Man. I can't say anything could possibly make you look any worse than you just made yourself look. Wow. Thank you for that.

 

I am always happy to educate those who are less educated. Stick around...you might learn something.

[FredLynn]

Uh. He already has.

 

Gee, 10 games. Do you think I JUST MIGHT have been referring to starting for the team? Or did that along with everything else I have tried to teach you slip past your confused brain.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am always happy to educate those who are less educated. Stick around...you might learn something.

 

Learn things everyday from posters on those site. You know why? Because I realize I don't know everything. You should try it. Instead of ripping someone for citing professional talent evaluators and then citing an amateur website and calling it credible. Serious that's hilarious.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Gee' date=' 10 games. Do you think I JUST MIGHT have been referring to starting for the team? Or did that along with everything else I have tried to teach you slip past your confused brain.[/quote']

 

You just referenced Bleacher Report to prove a point. You have zero credibility. None. Zip. Zero.

[FredLynn]

You just referenced Bleacher Report to prove a point. You have zero credibility. None. Zip. Zero.

 

I could not care less what level of credibility I have with you. Why should I?

Furthermore, I think this henpecking between you and me has gone far enough. I think we should stick to baseball and try to at least tolerate one another, if not ignore one another. I understand where I stand with you; I trust the reverse is also true.

[ORS]

I agree. It would be insane for posters to compare Iglesias to Ozzie Smith IF he has not been been compared to him by multiple talent evaluators. But the fact that he is consistently being compared to Ozzie means that it's not a crazy comparison. These are evaluators who go watch minor league players each and every day of work. They get paid to do this. For us to refute their analysis based solely on about 13 games where we see him play is ridiculous. So' date=' since we all have jobs and can't leave and follow the Red Sox minor leaguers to every game that they play and devise a point system to derive a calculated talent level and then compare that to Ozzie Smith, we trust the evaluators who do have the point system and analysis. And it would be one thing if it was a random no name evaluator who likened Iggys play to Ozzie Smith, but it's a consistent comparison among multiple evaluators.[/quote']

I think even the scouts are guilty of hyperbole, though. How do I communicate that someone has special talents in a particular skillset? Easy, mention an easily recognizable all-time great in that particular skill. Now, I'm not saying that Iglesias doesn't posses some very good talent with his glove. I think even the scouts that engage in this type of hyperbole reserve for those with remarkable skills. That said, you see a lot of this. There are books full of guys who demonstrate some very good skill relative to their peers and get a very favorable comparable star that they "could" end up being like.

 

Nobody here is more credible when it comes to rating the skills of players they have barely ever seen play over professional scouts, but enough years of following the minor leagues is enough to know that these comparisons are far from conclusive or worthy of serious consideration.

 

Ultimately, I think the important thing to take from any mention of Ozzie Smith as it relates to Iglesias has been hit on by others. Ozzie Smith is an archetype that represents a poor offensive player that plays transcendent defense in providing value to his team. Scouting reports for Iglesias put him in that group. Whether or not he's "Ozzie Smith" is irrelevant as long as he plays well enough in that archetype to provide value on the field.

[FredLynn]

I think even the scouts are guilty of hyperbole, though. How do I communicate that someone has special talents in a particular skillset? Easy, mention an easily recognizable all-time great in that particular skill. Now, I'm not saying that Iglesias doesn't posses some very good talent with his glove. I think even the scouts that engage in this type of hyperbole reserve for those with remarkable skills. That said, you see a lot of this. There are books full of guys who demonstrate some very good skill relative to their peers and get a very favorable comparable star that they "could" end up being like.

 

Nobody here is more credible when it comes to rating the skills of players they have barely ever seen play over professional scouts, but enough years of following the minor leagues is enough to know that these comparisons are far from conclusive or worthy of serious consideration.

 

Ultimately, I think the important thing to take from any mention of Ozzie Smith as it relates to Iglesias has been hit on by others. Ozzie Smith is an archetype that represents a poor offensive player that plays transcendent defense in providing value to his team. Scouting reports for Iglesias put him in that group. Whether or not he's "Ozzie Smith" is irrelevant as long as he plays well enough in that archetype to provide value on the field.

 

Very well put.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Your age is showing. And along with it' date=' your immaturity. Maybe one day you will become an adult.[/quote']

 

LOL the irony. Was I suppose to give a f*** or...

[example1]

What argument am I making or refuting other than to say it is ridiculous to compare minor league kids to Ozzie Smith or Ted Williams. That's not a straw man. Do we have a chubby kid in the system? Maybe we could liken him to Babe Ruth.

 

Edit: Seriously, I think if I posted that today is Monday, you would start your reply with: "that's always the way it is with you, a700":lol:

 

Ostensibly the argument is that Iglesias couldn't be ready to play for the Sox, since that was the context of the discussion and you are coming to the defense of those arguing that he isn't. The crux of your argument is that because the words "Ozzie Smith" were mentioned in a discussion with "Jose Iglesias" people are making direct comparisons of the two, saying Iglesias IS Ozzie Smith. Saying he has defense like Ozzie's is not saying he's Ozzie. Comparing the two is an illogical jump, ergo, Iglesias couldn't be ready to play for the Sox due to his s***** offense.

 

If you aren't saying that then you are only obfuscating the discussion by saying people here are saying he is as good as Ozzie Smith, which isn't happening. In other words, at best you are making the discussion about something it isn't; at worst you are creating a strawman to defend the same point that everyone you are siding with is defending. Neither of those is very good.

 

And, it is Monday, so I can't argue with you there.

[example1]

Ohhhhhh. Now it ALLLLL makes sense.

 

Talent evaluators are pure s*** and their opinions are just guesses, but citing an article from bleacher report is a credible source.

 

Hahahahahahaha. Dude. Are. You. Serious. Man. I can't say anything could possibly make you look any worse than you just made yourself look. Wow. Thank you for that.

 

Yes, Bleacher Report makes its appearance again. I thought we put a stop to that as in any way being a credible source.

 

Listen to the podcast interview between Alex Speier and Jim Callis, who writes for Baseball America (I believe).

 

Callis is clear that the Sox don't rank in the top tiers because they don't currently have anyone on the threshold of stardom like other clubs do and like they did in the past. He is also very clear that they likely have a bigger 2nd tier of prospects (guys who can be significant contributers at the MLB level) than almost any team in baseball.

 

It doesn't take a genius to see that is the case. They have had two really big drafts in 2010 and 2011 (8 1st round picks) and some of those guys are just starting to show their talents. However, most of them are 19 or 20 years old, half of them haven't played any professional ball yet, etc.,.

 

We should expect their rank to grow over the next few years and be back among the best in baseball due to these recent draft classes.

[example1]

Ultimately, I think the important thing to take from any mention of Ozzie Smith as it relates to Iglesias has been hit on by others. Ozzie Smith is an archetype that represents a poor offensive player that plays transcendent defense in providing value to his team. Scouting reports for Iglesias put him in that group. Whether or not he's "Ozzie Smith" is irrelevant as long as he plays well enough in that archetype to provide value on the field.

 

Yep. He doesn't have to be Ozzie Smith, just good enough to warrant a spot on the Sox in the next few years.

[FredLynn]

Yes, Bleacher Report makes its appearance again. I thought we put a stop to that as in any way being a credible source.

 

Listen to the podcast interview between Alex Speier and Jim Callis, who writes for Baseball America (I believe).

 

Callis is clear that the Sox don't rank in the top tiers because they don't currently have anyone on the threshold of stardom like other clubs do and like they did in the past. He is also very clear that they likely have a bigger 2nd tier of prospects (guys who can be significant contributers at the MLB level) than almost any team in baseball.

 

It doesn't take a genius to see that is the case. They have had two really big drafts in 2010 and 2011 (8 1st round picks) and some of those guys are just starting to show their talents. However, most of them are 19 or 20 years old, half of them haven't played any professional ball yet, etc.,.

 

We should expect their rank to grow over the next few years and be back among the best in baseball due to these recent draft classes.

 

I found two rankings that place our farm system in the middle of the pack. I found NONE that place us in the upper third. Maybe you can find such a document.

[BSN07]

I found two rankings that place our farm system in the middle of the pack. I found NONE that place us in the upper third. Maybe you can find such a document.

 

Do you just not understand what he is saying?

 

Sox farm system average now. Reason. Most Sox top prospects currently on Red Sox ML roster or traded for player currently producing at ML level. Good drafts last 2 years. Good young talent, only 19-20 years old. Sox system rate higher as young players develop.

 

Separate all the emotion and butt-hurt in this thread and this concept is fairly easy to grasp. If you can not grasp this concept, you have an agenda. If you have one fine, just don't deny it. Jacko has an agenda, but he also doesn't deny it.

 

Let's all try to be big boys and be happy for the fact the Boys are in camp, Lot's of sun and green grass to follow.

[User Name]

Do you just not understand what he is saying?

 

Sox farm system average now. Reason. Most Sox top prospects currently on Red Sox ML roster or traded for player currently producing at ML level. Good drafts last 2 years. Good young talent, only 19-20 years old. Sox system rate higher as young players develop.

 

Separate all the emotion and butt-hurt in this thread and this concept is fairly easy to grasp. If you can not grasp this concept, you have an agenda. If you have one fine, just don't deny it. Jacko has an agenda, but he also doesn't deny it.

 

Let's all try to be big boys and be happy for the fact the Boys are in camp, Lot's of sun and green grass to follow.

 

The Red Sox have been drafting high-upside HS talent for years. The reason why the Sox farm system is "middle of the pack" is because that strategy gives you better overall talent at the cost of more development time, thus most of the upper-tier talent the Sox have amassed is in the lower tier of the minors. Any self-respecting talent evaluator will tell you that the Sox are loaded with high-impact talent, but they can't be ranked any higher because that talent will take a while to reach the Majors.

 

Oh, and of the two links posted to "Rankings list" one is from before the 2011 season and the other one is Bleacher report, which is completely unreliable.