2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

I cannot imagine how tough it must be to be a Sox fan and live in NYC as some here do.

It's a lot easier after winning the two championships, but it was tough growing up through the 70's.

[a700hitter]

WEEI's Rob Bradford is reporting that Tim Wakefield will be holding a press conference at 5PM in Fort Meyers to announce his retirement.

Halleluiah!

[Muggah]

Halleluiah!

 

Ya, this is the best news we've gotten the entire off-season, IMO. Amen.

[SoxSport]

"getting their manager fired"

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/02/red_sox_sweepin.html

 

This guy doesn't get it. It was the manager's fault that the inmates were running the funnyfarm.

Typical media response blaming the players, but letting the management off the hook.

 

He even tries to let Epstein off the hook, too.

 

Fortunately, LL and Henry didn't. Henry pays the salaries--not the Globe.

[a700hitter]

"getting their manager fired"

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/02/red_sox_sweepin.html

 

This guy doesn't get it. It was the manager's fault that the inmates were running the funnyfarm.

Typical media response blaming the players, but letting the management off the hook.

 

He even tries to let Epstein off the hook, too.

 

Fortunately, LL and Henry didn't. Henry pays the salaries--not the Globe.

Did E1 write the article?

[VA Sox Fan]

Did E1 write the article?

 

No silly, it was Eric Wilbur.

[jung]

Well the biggest hole in the blame the Manager argument is that if you ask the players they will much prefer a Manager that is a "players" Manager, someone that makes them responsible for themselves. This bunch is already grumbling at V's ST plan.

 

The facts of life for managers in MLB is that if push comes to shove they are going and the players are staying. Even with the embarrassment of last season I would not bet on Sox Management supporting their Manager if push comes to shove.

 

It is Sox Management that needs to provide their Manager with a balanced team that has enough guys still playing for their bacon and enough guys that still have some fire in their bellies. Hand a Manager a team stockpiled with entitled stars with long term contracts and unless those guys come together as a team of professionals, regardless of who is Manager then I would not give that Manager a snowball's chance in hell. Coming together as a team of professionals is something that has to be done by the players as a group, themselves. That is not going to be dictated down from the Manager.

[SoxSport]

Did E1 write the article?

 

Eric Wilbur. Don't know who he is . Maybe Joe Sullivan has him do the hatchet work.

 

This could help the Sox get a decent player from the Cubs--oddly enough. Makes Epstein look like he left on his own initiative. Henry gets rid of people in a passive way--makes it look like it's their decision they are leaving. Tito, also. And now even Wake.

[SoxSport]

Well the biggest hole in the blame the Manager argument is that if you ask the players they will much prefer a Manager that is a "players" Manager, someone that makes them responsible for themselves. This bunch is already grumbling at V's ST plan.

 

The facts of life for managers in MLB is that if push comes to shove they are going and the players are staying. Even with the embarrassment of last season I would not bet on Sox Management supporting their Manager if push comes to shove.

 

It is Sox Management that needs to provide their Manager with a balanced team that has enough guys still playing for their bacon and enough guys that still have some fire in their bellies. Hand a Manager a team stockpiled with entitled stars with long term contracts and unless those guys come together as a team of professionals, regardless of who is Manager then I would not give that Manager a snowball's chance in hell. Coming together as a team of professionals is something that has to be done by the players as a group, themselves. That is not going to be dictated down from the Manager.

 

Absolutely. It's almost impossible to manage a bunch of guys who are making 5-10 times more than you are. You have to have strong interpersonal skills. Plus a track record winning, so you have their respect. I expect V will have some problems. This isn't Japan, and it isn't the Mets of the 1980s. It's a lot of grossly overpaid prima donnas.

 

Fortunately, with the salary inequities in baseball, you always have a bunch of young guys pushing for the big payday. The Ellsburys. etc. They balance the $20 million dollar guys.

How a guy making $20 mil guaranteed gets motivated to bust his butt everyday is beyond me. Some do, some don't. That's what it takes to stay at a high level of performance.

[SoxSport]

Halleluiah!

 

Wake has pitched more innings than any Red Sox pitcher in history. They kept giving him those one or two year contracts for small change. His lifetime era is 4.41. Classic 5th starter.

[seabeachfred]

You are right about Boston. The population there is more focused on the Sox than NYers are focused on any of its sports teams. I guess in part it can be attributed to the fact that Boston is much smaller than NY.

 

Boston has four professional sports teams but one thing is very clear. It is a Red Sox town first and foremost. RS baseball is king in Boston. That jumps out at me every time I come to Boston, but maybe some of you aren't aware of the comeradarie of Red Sox fans elsewhere in the country. Since I am ardent enough to just about always travel around in some kind of Red Sox gear and often work out in Boston livery, it is astounding the good cheer when you run into another Red Sox fan--and I run into them very often. There are a lot of Sox fans in the Los Angeles area. Just try getting a stool or table at McLean's Boston Bar in Santa Monica on a game day. Certainly in most cases Sox fans living in the Boston area are most likely more passionate than those elsewhere, but, believe me, there are some very glaring exceptions. That's why I took a mild issue with Jacko's missive; it just wasn't accurate. Well Bellhorn put it best.....We are all rabid Red Sox fans and all in this together. Why someone has to try and show why he might be superior to some other Sox fan makes no sense. Unless you're a pink hat we all live and die with our team.

[seabeachfred]

It's a lot easier after winning the two championships' date=' but it was tough growing up through the 70's.[/quote']

 

Aren't there two Red Sox bars in Manhattan? I know of one that I go to when I'm in New York; it's on third avenue on the lower East Side. I think there is another one Midtown. Have you ever been to one of those 700? I'm told there are more Sox fans in New York City than normally meets the eye.

[mvp 78]

I was at Mcleans for the last game in 2005. Nice spot.

[seabeachfred]

I was at Mcleans for the last game in 2005. Nice spot.

 

We kicked the s*** out of the Yankees that day to get a tie in the division but they got the title because of an edge in the season series. Maybe we rubbed elbows. I was there that day. I love their haddock.

[mvp 78]

I meant the game they were bounced from the playoffs.

[Spitball]

It's a lot easier after winning the two championships' date=' but it was tough growing up through the 70's.[/quote']

 

Or the 50s and early 60s.

[seabeachfred]

I meant the game they were bounced from the playoffs.

 

oooopppppssss, wrong game. I guess I had more fun my last time there than you did your last. Of course, if Graffinino hadn't booted that sure DP grounder we would have come home tied 1-1 and maybe played with more confidence than that third game. We looked pretty well spent that day from what I saw on television.

[SoxSport]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2012/02/by_tony_massarotti_globe_staff.html

 

 

Mazz says the Red Sox starters lack endurance, and should improve their conditioning.

I agree, but I also think the whole pitch count philosophy needs to be reexamined in terms of its effect on endurance. Limiting pitches/innings may be counterproductive--except for very young pitchers developing in the minors. Even there, you have to wonder if you are limiting endurance from the start. The other problem is the overtaxing of the bullpen which results when starters are prematurely removed after 5 or 6 innings due to pitch counts.

[Palodios]

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/massarotti/2012/02/by_tony_massarotti_globe_staff.html

 

 

Mazz says the Red Sox starters lack endurance, and should improve their conditioning.

I agree, but I also think the whole pitch count philosophy needs to be reexamined in terms of its effect on endurance. Limiting pitches/innings may be counterproductive--except for very young pitchers developing in the minors. Even there, you have to wonder if you are limiting endurance from the start. The other problem is the overtaxing of the bullpen which results when starters are prematurely removed after 5 or 6 innings due to pitch counts.

 

Seriously, you're a broken record. You've talked about these in atleast 20 posts, and that isn't an exaggeration.

[mvp 78]

Complain the starters can't pitch 200 innings.

 

Complain when the manager tries to keep a starter in when he's given up 5 runs.

 

Rinse.

 

Repeat.

[a700hitter]

Complain the starters can't pitch 200 innings.

 

Complain when the manager tries to keep a starter in when he's given up 5 runs.

 

Rinse.

 

Repeat.

5 runs? Francona had a 7 run rule.

[FortMyersJerry]

Just wanted tou all to know I live walking distance from Jet Blue Stadium and my goodess it's quite a sight. As you drive by you can't take your eyes off it. Bet it causes quite a few rear enders. It is about to have a open house on next Sat. You bet I'll be there. The parkway to the stadium is now a 6 lane road and I hope there are no traffic jams on game days. If you look at Google Earth Fort Myers and follow Daniels Parkway east, you'll come to Gateway Blvd. Just before that is an open field with a few ponds, well thats all filled with our beautifull stadium now. My oh my it's like Bean Town has moved down to me. Now I don't miss the cold, slush and traffic jams anymore. Still love those muddy waters though.

[jung]

I would be willing to bet that any teams that did offer Wake a try and particularly the team at the MLB level were NL teams.

 

Sox need to move forward, not look back. Looking at Wake through the perspective of the 2011 pitching staff doesn't make a case for 2012. Don't see what Wake's relation to the 2011 staff has to do with 2012. So he was the best the Sox had in relation to two guys already on the DL and one pitching for no other reason than he could still get the ball to home plate before finally getting TJ'd. As for Wake's ability to out-pitch the dregs that the Sox had left behind him, that is more an indictment of the Sox than it is a rational for bringing Wake forward in 2012.

 

Give Wake credit for some smarts and in reality I am happy that his loyalty to the team paid off in terms of the ability to pitch long enough to get to 200 wins. That is really a tremendous accomplishment mostly reserved for very talented pitchers. But lets not kid ourselves. As the years wore on it is not like he stabilized at a particular level. Each year was tougher than the last. Each year with few exceptions his knuckler would stop knuckling earlier in games than the year before.

 

I for one would be disappointed if they got into a bind and did not find some other way out of it than ringing up Wake's phone number.

 

In the first place the way he framed his retirement decision would likely make it very hard for him to come back. His family wants him home finally. He has earned the right to be there. In addition, the last thing we want to see, is another Manager trying to find a way to get Wake enough starts so that he can attack the franchise win record. Lets not kid ourselves here either. If Wake did come back that would be about the only thing that would draw him back.

 

Geez we are as bad as Sox Management when it comes to letting these guys go.

[mvp 78]

5 runs? Francona had a 7 run rule.

 

Posters in gamethreads acted as if the Sox had a 15 man pitching staff. At some point, you have to let SPsjust work through it or they'll never pitch more than 5 innings a start.

[jung]

It is about to have a open house on next Sat. You bet I'll be there.

 

Make sure to scout out how far past the left field fence you have to park so that your car is not hit by a 500' homer by the opposition. Considering the guys the Sox have to look at this spring, home plate will likely be a launchpad. They have to do it though. They have to work their way through these guys and see what they have.

[a700hitter]

Posters in gamethreads acted as if the Sox had a 15 man pitching staff. At some point' date=' you have to let SPsjust work through it or they'll never pitch more than 5 innings a start.[/quote']He taxed his bullpen in lots of games where starters were lifted after 5 or 6 innings and 100 -110 pitches where only 2-3 runs were given up. That was as big a problem as the 7 run rule forfeit games. Beckett's curves hung like balloons after 100-110 pitches. They couldn't get deep into low scoring games. The over taxing of the pen day in and day out prevented him from going to the pen before the 5th or 6th inning no matter how many runs were allowed. Too often that number of runs was 7 and the game was over-- given away.

[jung]

I think if I remember correctly Beckett would often struggle but would for the most part get to the 6th. Along the way he would usually have one blow up inning but was pretty solid for the rest. I am not sure that was as much of a problem as 160 out of Lackey, 82 out of Buch and 37 out of dice. Wake gave them 154 I think. Fine for a 5. But they never really recovered from Buch and dice going down and Lackey really simply being an arm thrown out there every 5th day.

 

When your best two guys are giving you 6 or so and then everybody else is struggling to get out of the 4th that is to many guys out of the pen pitching to many innings. I still have no idea how Aceves did what he did and have to wonder how bad this all would have looked if Aceves had not over achieved to a level that in retrospect seems superhuman when you compare it to expectation.

[Bellhorn04]

He taxed his bullpen in lots of games where starters were lifted after 5 or 6 innings and 100 -110 pitches where only 2-3 runs were given up. That was as big a problem as the 7 run rule forfeit games. Beckett's curves hung like balloons after 100-110 pitches.

 

I don't understand. You're criticizing Francona for not leaving starters in past 100-110 pitches, then giving a perfect example of what happens to most starters at 100-110 pitches.

[SoxSport]

He taxed his bullpen in lots of games where starters were lifted after 5 or 6 innings and 100 -110 pitches where only 2-3 runs were given up. That was as big a problem as the 7 run rule forfeit games. Beckett's curves hung like balloons after 100-110 pitches. They couldn't get deep into low scoring games. The over taxing of the pen day in and day out prevented him from going to the pen before the 5th or 6th inning no matter how many runs were allowed. Too often that number of runs was 7 and the game was over-- given away.

 

Exactly.

 

An example of the misapplication of sabermetrics--maybe.

[seabeachfred]

I would be willing to bet that any teams that did offer Wake a try and particularly the team at the MLB level were NL teams.

 

Sox need to move forward, not look back. Looking at Wake through the perspective of the 2011 pitching staff doesn't make a case for 2012. Don't see what Wake's relation to the 2011 staff has to do with 2012. So he was the best the Sox had in relation to two guys already on the DL and one pitching for no other reason than he could still get the ball to home plate before finally getting TJ'd. As for Wake's ability to out-pitch the dregs that the Sox had left behind him, that is more an indictment of the Sox than it is a rational for bringing Wake forward in 2012.

 

Give Wake credit for some smarts and in reality I am happy that his loyalty to the team paid off in terms of the ability to pitch long enough to get to 200 wins. That is really a tremendous accomplishment mostly reserved for very talented pitchers. But lets not kid ourselves. As the years wore on it is not like he stabilized at a particular level. Each year was tougher than the last. Each year with few exceptions his knuckler would stop knuckling earlier in games than the year before.

 

I for one would be disappointed if they got into a bind and did not find some other way out of it than ringing up Wake's phone number.

 

In the first place the way he framed his retirement decision would likely make it very hard for him to come back. His family wants him home finally. He has earned the right to be there. In addition, the last thing we want to see, is another Manager trying to find a way to get Wake enough starts so that he can attack the franchise win record. Lets not kid ourselves here either. If Wake did come back that would be about the only thing that would draw him back.

 

Geez we are as bad as Sox Management when it comes to letting these guys go.

 

No Jung, we are not nearly as bad as Sox management when it comes to letting these guys go. The FO gambled and won with Wakefield; they let him decide that under the circumstances laid out in front of him that it put him in a very unsavory atmosphere and that Valentine really did not want him around. He made the right choice.

 

I think Nosaj Ketirav is a whole different fish. I'd like nothing better than to be 0 for 2 on my predictions on these two sacred cows, Tim and this guy, but I still believe the guy is going to show up on Monday. I don't think Valentine wants him around and won't give in if the pressure from the FO starts trickling down to give "their Tek" a spot on the roster. Look, if he was any good some other team would have offered him a contract, don't you think? They didn't!!!!! Time for him and the team to move on.