2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[SoxSport]

Yes you are right pumps. I have answered that same question for myself the very same way as I have had degenerative discs in C4 and C5 and L4 and L5 for a number of years now.

 

In Oswalt's case he may have hammered those discs so badly, especially if he has had years of cortisone shots that surgery may be more of an option for him than it is for me. I can go years without having my discs flare up and so have learned to live with them without surgery. However I have not been trying to pitch at a major league level either. I would hazard a guess that while Oswalt is much younger than I am, I would be willing to bet there is a very good chance that his discs are in much worse shape than mine.

 

You are also correct in your comment that in many cases those that undergo surgery are no better off than those that do not undergo surgery and are sometimes worse off. However, It would not be a complete surprise to me that when he does get to be my age, he may likely be in much worse shape and enduring far worse and more frequent bouts with pain than I have. We who suffer from degenerative discs often have received the same advice from neurosurgeons. Avoid surgery for as long as you can tolerate the pain and for as long as you can keep the pain incidents to a tolerable level and hope for the day when the surgery becomes something of a Dr. McCoy, Star Trek kind of affair with the good doctor waiving his surgical thingy over your back and Walla', back pain gone.

 

Have you tried spinal decompression? I just had that done--20 treatments over a 2 month span. It does improve things some. How much is too early to tell yet.

[Muggah]

This off season continues to baffle me. If Oswalt is damaged goods and that's why no one wants him' date=' then I don't want him either. If he is just going to be an expensive dumpster dive acquisition, that is not what we need. I wouldn't want him at any price. What this team needed going into the off season was a consistent starter who could take the ball 30+ times. If Oswalt is not the guy, why didn't they get someone else? They passed or missed out on Kuroda, Jackson, and even Saunders. What about a trade for a starter? Getting a starter should have been their primary goal. If it was, they have not executed their plan. If it wasn't their plan, I have to question their strategy. Bard could pitch like Roger Clemens or fail miserably or anything in between. We just don't know. It's a gamble. We will also be rolling the dice every 5th day on an assortment of garbage and hoping that 1 of them gets some traction. I don't get how this can be thought to be a sound plan. What happens if there are any injuries? If we weren't going to siign or acquire a starter, why dump Scutaro? Did they do that. to pay for Ortiz's raise? We keep hearing and reading that they are happy with their rotation, but how could that be? It seems like a big roll of the dice for a $170 million team. Then everyday their are reports about their interest in one starter or another. I don't know what to believe. The whole scenario makes very little sense.[/quote']

 

I agree on all points, and that's why I've been saying (and they have been too, if you read between the lines) that their expectations for this team this year are low. They'll never say so, but I think ownership and the FO are going to be perfectly happy with another 3rd place finish, just so long as Valentine succeeds in introducing change in the clubhouse, getting the fringe deviants on board with his system, and weeding out any remaining problem children.

 

Fixing problems the magnitude of what it took for the collapse to take place takes time. And I think they realize that. And if you listen to them at that 'Town Hall Meeting' Valentine and Cherington weren't predicting a playoff run, or even the 95 win season Blunder used to aim for annually. What Valentine, in fact, closed with was, and I'm paraphrasing--"We're asking you, the fans, to be patient. If you give these guys a chance we promise you that you'll be proud of the way these guys are going to represent the Boston Red Sox." That statement alone tells me they've set the bar very low, and that their first priority is dealing with this culture of losing and whatever it's going to take to prevent another embarrassment like last Sept.

[jung]

The problem with degenerative discs and pitching at a major league level from what I can see is what happens when you do really ding them. He has already been getting cortisone shots when he has been ailing and that is not a good treatment plan long term. Clearly he has been using them because they have been necessary for him to be able to get back out there on the mound and pitch but the more cortisone shots you get and the longer the period of time you use it, the worse things get. I don't find the fact that he has already been using them extensively encouraging at all.

 

Once you ding the discs as I suspect you are aware, you are left with a major league back spasm as the muscles of your back struggle to pull the vertebrae off the discs that are now basically screaming in pain. So there is the back spasm that you need to calm down before you can even walk without being bent over again and the discs need to back down off of that screaming in pain level.

 

I would bet that Oswalt has already been doing everything he can do including decompression sessions to stay on the mound and given the amount of time he misses, it has not been enough. So much does begin to make sense in light of this issue. Can I blame the Cards for not being willing to allocate a rotation spot to Oswalt? Absolutely not! Likewise for the Rangers. Do the $5M offers make sense? If anything they might be a little high.

 

The only thing that does not fit is that Detroit offer at $10M early on. I did not believe that Detroit offered him $10M when I heard it the first time and I did not believe Oswalt would have turned up his nose at an offer of $10M from Detroit had they offered it.

[a700hitter]

Have you tried spinal decompression? I just had that done--20 treatments over a 2 month span. It does improve things some. How much is too early to tell yet.

Is this the same as traction?

[jung]

Have not tried decompression myself as yet. I have so far been able to keep the number of recurrences down by keeping my core in decent shape so that part of my body is not making life more miserable for another part of my body and by doing what I can to keep my weight down.

 

While I have not been able to street run or jog for a long time now as it is just to much of a pounding for my back to take, I can treadmill and three seasons of the year I bicycle virtually every day. So far, keeping the core strong, the weight down and learning how to lift things, and how to bend from the knees and not from the waist I have been able to avoid unmanageable numbers of recurrences.

 

Every once and awhile I will forget that I should not bend from the waist and I will be leaning over as I realize I have zinged myself again and have some pain penance to do as a result. One of the more stupid feelings you can have is leaning over having forgotten not to bend from the waist and realizing that just like that....in a nanosecond, the damage is already done and knowing that in a couple hours it is time to start your pain penance.

[User Name]

I agree on all points, and that's why I've been saying (and they have been too, if you read between the lines) that their expectations for this team this year are low. They'll never say so, but I think ownership and the FO are going to be perfectly happy with another 3rd place finish, just so long as Valentine succeeds in introducing change in the clubhouse, getting the fringe deviants on board with his system, and weeding out any remaining problem children.

 

Fixing problems the magnitude of what it took for the collapse to take place takes time. And I think they realize that. And if you listen to them at that 'Town Hall Meeting' Valentine and Cherington weren't predicting a playoff run, or even the 95 win season Blunder used to aim for annually. What Valentine, in fact, closed with was, and I'm paraphrasing--"We're asking you, the fans, to be patient. If you give these guys a chance we promise you that you'll be proud of the way these guys are going to represent the Boston Red Sox." That statement alone tells me they've set the bar very low, and that their first priority is dealing with this culture of losing and whatever it's going to take to prevent another embarrassment like last Sept.

 

Or they actually think this team is loaded with talent, and what happened last year is an outlier.

 

This is a team that, by all standards, should have won 95+ games and imploded. A dose of health and better managing should help close the gap, and the possibility for mid-season acquisitions (which they have done before) is there.

 

I don't understand why you have to magically turn everything possible into a negative. To think that they'd be content with a third place finish is plain stupid, because it affects their ability to make money, and that's their main objective. Changing clubhouse culture is important, but that doesn't mean they can't be succesful in the meantime.

 

There is a difference between realism and complete and utter negativity.

[Muggah]

Or they actually think this team is loaded with talent, and what happened last year is an outlier.

 

This is a team that, by all standards, should have won 95+ games and imploded. A dose of health and better managing should help close the gap, and the possibility for mid-season acquisitions (which they have done before) is there.

 

I don't understand why you have to magically turn everything possible into a negative. To think that they'd be content with a third place finish is plain stupid, because it affects their ability to make money, and that's their main objective. Changing clubhouse culture is important, but that doesn't mean they can't be succesful in the meantime.

 

There is a difference between realism and complete and utter negativity.

 

 

I'm not being negative IMO. What I'm simply trying to point out is the exact same thing Valentine and Cherington are---don't get your hopes too high. According to you they know more than all of us. So if they're saying the exact same thing I am, why don't you email them and ask them about their so called 'negativity.'

 

All I'm simply doing is trying to save a few 'pie in the sky' folks from setting themselves up for disappointment.

[User Name]

I'm not being negative IMO. What I'm simply trying to point out is the exact same thing Valentine and Cherington are---don't get your hopes too high. According to you they know more than all of us. So if they're saying the exact same thing I am, why don't you email them and ask them about their so called 'negativity.'

 

All I'm simply doing is trying to save a few 'pie in the sky' folks from setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

The problem is trying to read between the lines. You are trying to interpret what others say by applying your own values to it. They are not saying the same thing you're saying. If they are, can you please show me where?

 

First off, they're not going to say outright that the team sucks (and it doesn't), but they know they need another Starting Pitcher. Being "content" doesn't mean there isn't space for change. You're reading too much into it.

[Muggah]

The problem is trying to read between the lines. You are trying to interpret what others say by applying your own values to it. They are not saying the same thing you're saying. If they are, can you please show me where?

 

First off, they're not going to say outright that the team sucks (and it doesn't), but they know they need another Starting Pitcher. Being "content" doesn't mean there isn't space for change. You're reading too much into it.

 

I never said this team sucks, because it doesn't. But it should be clear to anyone not wearing rose colored glasses that this team is not a playoff caliber team. Not this year. Sorry. And I fully believe both Ben and BV have been alluding to that. If that's not what you're taking away from what they've been saying, then fine--so be it. But IMO they've made every effort, albeit indirectly, to warn people not to get their hopes too high.

[iortiz]

This off season continues to baffle me. If Oswalt is damaged goods and that's why no one wants him' date=' then I don't want him either. If he is just going to be an expensive dumpster dive acquisition, that is not what we need. I wouldn't want him at any price. What this team needed going into the off season was a consistent starter who could take the ball 30+ times. If Oswalt is not the guy, why didn't they get someone else? They passed or missed out on Kuroda, Jackson, and even Saunders. What about a trade for a starter? Getting a starter should have been their primary goal. If it was, they have not executed their plan. If it wasn't their plan, I have to question their strategy. Bard could pitch like Roger Clemens or fail miserably or anything in between. We just don't know. It's a gamble. We will also be rolling the dice every 5th day on an assortment of garbage and hoping that 1 of them gets some traction. I don't get how this can be thought to be a sound plan. What happens if there are any injuries? If we weren't going to siign or acquire a starter, why dump Scutaro? Did they do that. to pay for Ortiz's raise? We keep hearing and reading that they are happy with their rotation, but how could that be? It seems like a big roll of the dice for a $170 million team. Then everyday their are reports about their interest in one starter or another. I don't know what to believe. The whole scenario makes very little sense.[/quote']

 

100% agree with all your points.

 

I like Ortiz, he will execute (he better), but if we were in cheap mode (seems so; whatever it means), still they could use that money in a SP. That was our priority #1. Out there were plenty of options and for whatever reason they seemed to be more focus in BV, Ortiz and in how to fill Pap's hole (I didn't like his departure) and BTW our everyday SS is gone too. If this is the 2012 offseason strategy, I do not like it at all.

[User Name]

I never said this team sucks' date=' because it doesn't. But it should be clear to anyone not wearing rose colored glasses that this team is not a playoff caliber team. Not this year. Sorry. And I fully believe both Ben and BV have been alluding to that. If that's not what you're taking away from what they've been saying, then fine--so be it. But IMO they've made every effort, albeit indirectly, to warn people not to get their hopes too high.[/quote']

 

It is a playoff caliber team. The problem is that its playoff contention hinges on the health of some players with iffy health history. That is a realistic take on it.

 

Te talent is there, but a lot of things would have to go right. If they get another starter via signing/trade or one of the dregs can hold their own, it's a whole different story.

[Muggah]

It is a playoff caliber team. The problem is that its playoff contention hinges on the health of some players with iffy health history. That is a realistic take on it.

 

Te talent is there, but a lot of things would have to go right. If they get another starter via signing/trade or one of the dregs can hold their own, it's a whole different story.

 

I don't see it that way. In fact not at all. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Bellhorn04]

With regard to Oswalt's health, things have really taken a turn here toward pessimism. I would agree that there are concerns, but he did make all of his starts from August on. And he has been meeting with teams. I don't think the fact that no one has signed him means that everyone's been going over his medical records with him.

[jung]

With regard to Oswalt's health, things have really taken a turn here toward pessimism. I would agree that there are concerns, but he did make all of his starts from August on. And he has been meeting with teams. I don't think the fact that no one has signed him means that everyone's been going over his medical records with him.

 

I have become more pessimistic regarding Oswalt upon learning that his back problem is actually degenerative discs. Making all of his starts in August is hardly a recommendation under the circumstances. This is not something that gets better over time. It is something that you manage over time and the fact that he has been using cortisone so early in his life and extensively to boot is not at all encouraging. I would suspect that every year he has pitched with this particular malady is another year that he has bashed away at those discs.

 

Plus you end up adding up what has been happening with Oswalt looking for a rational. Does it make sense that Jackson gets $10M from the Nationals and Oswalt, a pitcher with his record of accomplishment cannot get either the Cards or Rangers to even consider moving somebody aside so that he can have a #5 spot in the rotation? Does it make sense that he apparently cannot get anybody to offer him more than $5M and that he has attracted so few teams to offer him anything to date?

 

Many of us have been saying that something does not smell right for weeks now. For my part I just did not have anything that I could put my finger on other than thinking that teams were concerned about his back's health all be it somewhat nebulously. Once I found out that the heath problem was degenerative discs at least to me a good deal of what has been reported about offers that have been put before him finally made some sense. While I only just found out it was degenerative discs, teams obviously would have known this and it appears to me that they are taking it into consideration. In fact if I am not mistaken was it not reported that what offer the Sox had made to Oswalt had been withdrawn?

 

The Sox do not need a guy that can bend over the wrong way one morning and be on the shelf for a month or longer. I certainly could not pencil him in as a #4 anywhere under the circumstances and the chances are pretty good that he could not even give you the 150 innings or so that you would expect from a #5.

 

Before this I have contended that I thought some NL team would come out of the woodworks late and sign him for something around the $5M that has been tossed about for weeks now. Now, knowing this I am more inclined to think he will not get an offer till teams see what they have in ST. If the #5 somebody has been planning on does not seem to be able to fill the bill and that team does not have somebody that can move into that spot then I think he will get an offer, probably lower even than the $5M that has been thrown around up until now. In my view it will take that sort of event for some team to take a shot at giving him a rotation spot. That puts him about one step on the ladder over Wakefield if that provides some perspective and that might be generous.

[BSN07]

Oswalt's health concerns are real. A pitcher of his caliber and pedigree is not still hanging around mid February for no reason. Especially if he's looking for a one year deal and not a mulit year deal like at the beginning of the off season. There IS a reason no one has signed him.

 

The only other explanation is he only wants to play for 2 teams.

 

I'm at the point where it's too shady for me and would rather the Sox not take the risk, go with what they have, see who steps up and/or see who's available later on in the season. But that's just me.

[Can Of Corn]

Here's to hoping you all blow money on Oswalt rather than us.

[RedSoxNC84]

Here's to hoping you all blow money on Oswalt rather than us.

 

Apparently we'd rather spend money on dudes who can't pitch because they suck, rather than someone who can't pitch because they're on the verge of being physically disabled.

[FredLynn]

I don't see it that way. In fact not at all. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I think that this team can COMPETE for a playoff spot without adding personnel. They may or may not make it; its 50-50 IMO. Competing for a ring would be a stretch. If everything falls right we should be in the postseason, briefly, and by "everything" I mean that our three SP remain healthy. If we see much of the dregs this year, we have no chance.

[Spitball]

Hopefully, the Sox will be close enough to a playoff spot that a deadline deal for a starting pitcher can be made. I assume an acquisition after the season starts would not count against luxury tax.

[User Name]

Hopefully' date=' the Sox will be close enough to a playoff spot that a deadline deal for a starting pitcher can be made. I assume an acquisition after the season starts would not count against luxury tax.[/quote']

 

It does, but pro-rated.

[a700hitter]

Hopefully' date=' the Sox will be close enough to a playoff spot that a deadline deal for a starting pitcher can be made. I assume an acquisition after the season starts would not count against luxury tax.[/quote']The problem with that is there will be several teams still in contention and everyone has the same idea. To get someone good at that time of year has a heavy cost, I.e. Prospects. I don't know if our farm is deep enough to compete with other teams for the very few select pitchers who will be available. When is the last time that we landed a solid rotation piece at the trading deadline. I think we might have to go back to Mike Boddiker.

[User Name]

^ No grasp on farm depth. The farm is deep enough, the only prohibition would be actual cost aka not a lack of prospects, but an unwillingness to part with a significant number of them.

[jung]

Lets face it, a ton of stuff is going to have to go right for the Sox to have a shot. However if they do bring some of these young guys from the system up this year, this team should be fun to watch. Being a preseason juggernaut contending for the ring is fun but it can also be tedious. Every lost game can become a disappointment and a bone of contention.

 

Would it be so bad if were were in a position this year with young players that were kinda' more potential than reputation? I would love to see some of these guys come up and perform well for us and for once have the kind of season where we surpassed expectations instead of not meeting them.

[User Name]

A ton of stuff has to go right every season.

[jung]

A ton of stuff has to go right every season.

 

The point is we are thin in some critical areas....surely thinner than we want to be. The Sox may be happy with where they are but I think we will be and are less pleased. However I still think the team will be interesting and competitive as long as some of the jackass behavior from last year's team does not rear its ugly head this year and some guys raise up out of the cadre of young guys that they have and hopefully have to bring up to play. I am more interested in them than the scrap heap bunch. Seeing how Bard and Aceves meet the challenge thrown at them should hopefully be fun as well.

 

If they come out and play every game hard this year and play for team goals as opposed to whining about their individual stats or finding some way to check out early then they will at least meet my minimum expectations. That does not sound like much but considering the fact that they missed that mark last year, I would have to consider that an improvement.

[Muggah]

The point is we are thin in some critical areas....surely thinner than we want to be. The Sox may be happy with where they are but I think we will be and are less pleased. However I still think the team will be interesting and competitive as long as some of the jackass behavior from last year's team does not rear its ugly head this year and some guys raise up out of the cadre of young guys that they have and hopefully have to bring up to play. I am more interested in them than the scrap heap bunch. Seeing how Bard and Aceves meet the challenge thrown at them should hopefully be fun as well.

 

If they come out and play every game hard this year and play for team goals as opposed to whining about their individual stats or finding some way to check out early then they will at least meet my minimum expectations. That does not sound like much but considering the fact that they missed that mark last year, I would have to consider that an improvement.

 

I think your last two sentences are spot on, jung. And I firmly believe both ownership and the FO are in complete agreement with you as far that being their primary definition of success this season. Not a one of them has mentioned a thing about 'playoffs' or 90 or 95 wins, they have instead chosen to ask us to be patient, promising only that, given time, we will see pride and dignity restored to the way the players approach the game. That's their main goal. Everything else is ancillary this year.

[User Name]

Lots of reaching here. You are trying to convert a cautiously optimistic approach by Red Sox brass into low expectations for the team. That is your interpretation of things, not what was actually said and you can't prove that it's what it was meant.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox had a lot less holes going into last season and then holes sprang up. This offseason, they've essentially replaced Scutaro and Papelbon with Melancon, Shoppach and Bailey and the team is close to the same. Cautiously optimistic is a place no team with a $180 mil payroll should be in.

[User Name]

Says the Yankees fan. How many times this decade have the Yankees and their massive payroll gone into the season with a shitload of questions? It happens.

[Muggah]

Lots of reaching here. You are trying to convert a cautiously optimistic approach by Red Sox brass into low expectations for the team. That is your interpretation of things' date=' not what was actually said and you can't prove that it's what it was meant.[/quote']

 

You can't prove it isn't what they meant either.