2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[seabeachfred]

Deal.

 

There SCM, you got your wish and got it quickly. Yeszir gave all of us the word. Come to think of it, it probably was a good idea anyway. I'm sure Pumpsie wouldn't mind, and to be honest when we had some of those people on Sawxheads to put these stupid cartoons up it kind of pissed me off too. Let's just talk and argue baseball.

[Muggah]

Deal.

 

And I owe you an apology, too, SCM. This thing has driven me crazy this winter, but that's no excuse for me taking it out on other posters. Please accept my apology and let's hope the arrival of the players in camp will put us all in a better frame of mind.

[SCM33]

There SCM' date=' you got your wish and got it quickly. Yeszir gave all of us the word. Come to think of it, it probably was a good idea anyway. I'm sure Pumpsie wouldn't mind, and to be honest when we had some of those people on Sawxheads to put these stupid cartoons up it kind of pissed me off too. Let's just talk and argue baseball.[/quote']

 

And I owe you an apology' date=' too, SCM. This thing has driven me crazy this winter, but that's no excuse for me taking it out on other posters. Please accept my apology and let's hope the arrival of the players in camp will put us all in a better frame of mind.[/quote']

 

Guys, no problem......

 

We are all redsox fans.....well, for the most part. Like I said, I agree with alot of what you guys say....but there are different ways of saying it without pissing everyone off.

 

I dont want Tim Wakefield back either.......but if he does come back, that doesnt mean hes a bad person, hes just not a very good player anymore.

[FredLynn]

SCM' date=' just as I suggested to Muggah that he refrain from trying to antagonize you, may I also suggest that you SUGGEST that Pumpsie desist from putting those pictures on the board. Telling him they have to go is like waiving a red flag in front of a bull. I'm sure he would be willing to take that into consideration but's lets's all try to have a little respect for each other from here on in. I'm trying to do my part; let's see if all evolve into having friendly arguments without the bile and flamage.[/quote']

 

No problem Fred. No more pictures. I do think that some of them are actually kind of funny, but if they bother people here, then I won't post them any more.

[a700hitter]

The Reds haven't been in touch with Roy Oswalt's agents in the past week. “I think he’s waiting for Texas to clear money,” Jocketty said. ESPN.com's Jayson Stark said on Friday that Oswalt isn't going to sign with the Rangers or Phillies, however. Perhaps the Red Sox or Cardinals will make a late push for the right-hander.

[Elktonnick]

 

The Saga of Roy Oswalt has become a "Neverending Story"

[Bellhorn04]

The Saga of Roy Oswalt has become a "Neverending Story"

 

A little crazy, isn't it.

[example1]

Oswalt doesn't seem to want to play in Boston. No other teams seem that interested in signing him. Something doesn't smell right about this situation. The Sox are right to wait him out. Or not sign him at all.

 

I can't be the only one thinking this, can I?

[a700hitter]

Oswalt doesn't seem to want to play in Boston. No other teams seem that interested in signing him. Something doesn't smell right about this situation. The Sox are right to wait him out. Or not sign him at all.

 

I can't be the only one thinking this, can I?

Whoever signs him needs to give him a thorough physical.

[iortiz]

mmm... The name of the game is money. The guy wants 10 M according with reports. I only have heard that Ben have put 5 M on the table and probably 2-3 more in incentives.

 

If Ben puts 8 plus incentives he will likely have a deal done IMO.

[example1]

Whoever signs him needs to give him a thorough physical.

 

A thorough physical before the signing. I suspect (and have read reports that) his injury concerns are really sizeable and that's why few teams are interested in him.

 

mmm... The name of the game is money. The guy wants 10 M according with reports. I only have heard that Ben have put 5 M on the table and probably 2-3 more in incentives.

 

If Ben puts 8 plus incentives probably he will likely have a deal done IMO.

 

Does it matter to you at all that he seemingly doesn't want to play in Boston? Is Boston the place you want someone to come who might only be half-there?

[iortiz]

Whoever signs him needs to give him a thorough physical.

 

Somewhere I read that he is not 100% yet. I'm not sure how long it is going to take, assuming that he could be 100% healthy at some point.

[iortiz]

A thorough physical before the signing. I suspect (and have read reports that) his injury concerns are really sizeable and that's why few teams are interested in him.

 

 

 

Does it matter to you at all that he seemingly doesn't want to play in Boston? Is Boston the place you want someone to come who might only be half-there?

 

I said once, If he really doesn't want to come, I do not want him here. Plus, If he is not healthy or will not be healthy at some point I do not want him here either.

 

On the other hand these guys are professionals. They move where the money is. I'm not totally sold with those rumors that say that he doesn't want to come. Besides... Even if he plays in a easier division and put decent numbers, I do not see him getting a long/mid term or 1Y/big contract in 2013 reason why he wants to earn the most he can get now... Also, Seems like the only suitable team these days for him is Boston, of course this is only my opinion.

[SCM33]

Oswalt doesn't seem to want to play in Boston. No other teams seem that interested in signing him. Something doesn't smell right about this situation. The Sox are right to wait him out. Or not sign him at all.

 

I can't be the only one thinking this, can I?

 

Unfortunately, I think you are right.

 

There are a couple of things at play I think.......

 

1. He doesnt want to pitch in Boston.

2. He doesnt want to pitch in the ALE.

3. He is not healthy.

4. He is waiting for an NL team to make him a decent offer.

5. He is afraid of pitching in the AL, and hurting his value after a 1 year deal.

[Spitball]

Oswalt doesn't seem to want to play in Boston. No other teams seem that interested in signing him. Something doesn't smell right about this situation. The Sox are right to wait him out. Or not sign him at all.

 

I can't be the only one thinking this, can I?

 

I'm with you on this. I don't get his quest. The teams he wants don't need or apparently want him. The only team interested isn't his first, second, third, or whatever choice. So why doesn't he just announce his retirement and stop our desperate hoping?

[Palodios]

I didn't give a f*** when Manny didn't want to play in Boston. He was still by far the best option at his position. If he would only get on the field, and give it 80%, its still better than his replacement-- Darnell McDonald.

 

Same with Oswalt. Come here and pitch, and nothing else matters to me.

[jung]

iortiz....I think this is a case of immovable object meets irresistible force. The Sox appear unwilling to budge in any meaningful way relative to what was reported as their opening gambit. That is simply not enough money to motivate Oswalt in Boston's direction. I suspect at this point that just the points you raise are also having an impact on the Sox and their willingness to raise their offer.

 

I actually do believe that Oswalt has little interest in pitching in the AL East and while he could possibly be swayed in that regard I believe he would demand something of an AL East surcharge to pitch here. that makes it even less likely that the Sox have a real shot at him.

 

I still do believe it likely that the team that signs him has not even been mentioned yet relative to Oswalt. At some point I believe that some NL team that is acceptable to Oswalt will make him an offer similar to what he has been offered so far, maybe even a little less and that will end up being the offer he takes. If that is an offer of $5M then I would think that it would take an offer of at least $8M for the Sox to get him. Just opinion of course but have consistently said the same thing for weeks and don't see anything that would suggest things are any different now.

 

One thing to remember is that just the DH alone makes pitching in the AL much more difficult than pitching in the NL. Add to that the difficulty of pitching in the AL East and I don't find it at all hard to believe that Oswalt at this point in his career wants no part of it.

 

If what we have heard is accurate he has already turned down $10M to pitch for Detroit. I have mused that I think he has turned down some offer from Detroit but I would be surprised that the offer was $10M. If he truly did turn down $10M from Detroit then I would judge the chances that he is signed by the Sox even at this late date to be pretty slim.

[Spitball]

I am betting this has a lot to do with the lack of interest by almost every club in Oswalt. He apparently has two degenerative discs in his back.

 

Oswalt, whose option was declined by the Phillies after a 9-10 (3.69 ERA) season, has had back problems dating to his days with the Houston Astros. He reportedly has two degenerative discs in his lower back and while he has never undergone back surgery, he has had numerous cortisone shots. As recently as June, when the recurrent pain sent him to the disabled list for six weeks, Oswalt talked about possibly having to retire because of the injury.

 

Those concerns prompted a baseball insider with knowledge of the Yankees' thinking on the free-agent pitcher market to tell ESPNNewYork.com that the club was "very worried about his injury history. The guy's falling apart from that back of his. That's why Houston dumped him."

 

 

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7181719/source-new-york-yankees-scared-roy-oswalt-back-woes

 

He is a name we recognize as a one-time ace, but it is best to pass on the ghost of baseball past.

[iortiz]

iortiz....I think this is a case of immovable object meets irresistible force. The Sox appear unwilling to budge in any meaningful way relative to what was reported as their opening gambit. That is simply not enough money to motivate Oswalt in Boston's direction. I suspect at this point that just the points you raise are also having an impact on the Sox and their willingness to raise their offer.

 

I actually do believe that Oswalt has little interest in pitching in the AL East and while he could possibly be swayed in that regard I believe he would demand something of an AL East surcharge to pitch here. that makes it even less likely that the Sox have a real shot at him.

 

I still do believe it likely that the team that signs him has not even been mentioned yet relative to Oswalt. At some point I believe that some NL team that is acceptable to Oswalt will make him an offer similar to what he has been offered so far, maybe even a little less and that will end up being the offer he takes. If that is an offer of $5M then I would think that it would take an offer of at least $8M for the Sox to get him. Just opinion of course but have consistently said the same thing for weeks and don't see anything that would suggest things are any different now.

 

One thing to remember is that just the DH alone makes pitching in the AL much more difficult than pitching in the NL. Add to that the difficulty of pitching in the AL East and I don't find it at all hard to believe that Oswalt at this point in his career wants no part of it.

 

If what we have heard is accurate he has already turned down $10M to pitch for Detroit. I have mused that I think he has turned down some offer from Detroit but I would be surprised that the offer was $10M. If he truly did turn down $10M from Detroit then I would judge the chances that he is signed by the Sox even at this late date to be pretty slim.

 

If this is true Jung, he will not come to Boston, as simple as that... unless Boston pays him more than Detroit's offer which I really doubt it at this point.

[jung]

If the problem is degenerative discs in his lower back then there is no way that his making it through a season is anything more than a major roll of the dice.

 

You can learn to live with degenerative discs while avoiding surgery. There are things you learn how to do a certain way or things you just don't do. However I doubt that pitching at a major league level sits on the safe side of the line.

 

Maybe he is headed toward retirement after all. I can definitely see the Sox not really having interest under the circumstances and almost wonder that they would even offer him $5M given the number of pitching bodies they have put on the shelf in the last few years. With that sort of problem, Oswalt may not even make it out of ST.

[jung]

In truth if I had known that Oswalts back problem was actually degenerative discs, then I would have recommended that doing almost anything with our time, like basket weaving for example would have been time better spent than musing about his coming here or more importantly coming here and being effective.

 

If he has been getting cortisone shots for that long a period of time I suspect that while helping his pain it would have actually accelerated the pace of his failing discs. Tells you something about the draw of major league millions. I doubt that we will admire the way he walks down the street 20 years from now although I would also not be surprised if he does actually undergo surgery once he retires. He has probably stressed out those discs much worse than any of us would under normal circumstances.

[FredLynn]

If the problem is degenerative discs in his lower back then there is no way that his making it through a season is anything more than a major roll of the dice.

 

You can learn to live with degenerative discs while avoiding surgery. There are things you learn how to do a certain way or things you just don't do. However I doubt that pitching at a major league level sits on the safe side of the line.

 

Maybe he is headed toward retirement after all. I can definitely see the Sox not really having interest under the circumstances and almost wonder that they would even offer him $5M given the number of pitching bodies they have put on the shelf in the last few years. With that sort of problem, Oswalt may not even make it out of ST.

 

For the record, I don't think surgery is the answer to degenerative disc disease. I remember reading a study that people who had surgery for it did no better than those who underwent conservative treatment (ie, no surgery). I know many people who had surgery for this who got much worse after the procedure. There is a saying: "Surgeons might be able to help, but the certainly are capable of screwing things up"...or something to that effect. Not that this has anything to do with the Sox getting Oswalt....

[jung]

Yes you are right pumps. I have answered that same question for myself the very same way as I have had degenerative discs in C4 and C5 and L4 and L5 for a number of years now.

 

In Oswalt's case he may have hammered those discs so badly, especially if he has had years of cortisone shots that surgery may be more of an option for him than it is for me. I can go years without having my discs flare up and so have learned to live with them without surgery. However I have not been trying to pitch at a major league level either. I would hazard a guess that while Oswalt is much younger than I am, I would be willing to bet there is a very good chance that his discs are in much worse shape than mine.

 

You are also correct in your comment that in many cases those that undergo surgery are no better off than those that do not undergo surgery and are sometimes worse off. However, It would not be a complete surprise to me that when he does get to be my age, he may likely be in much worse shape and enduring far worse and more frequent bouts with pain than I have. We who suffer from degenerative discs often have received the same advice from neurosurgeons. Avoid surgery for as long as you can tolerate the pain and for as long as you can keep the pain incidents to a tolerable level and hope for the day when the surgery becomes something of a Dr. McCoy, Star Trek kind of affair with the good doctor waiving his surgical thingy over your back and Walla', back pain gone.

[example1]

He's from Mississippi. He wants to play in St. Louis or Dallas. The cynical side of me says that he wants to be close to home so he can go there when he's injured and not feel the need to stay close to the team. Getting injured in Boston wouldn't lend itself well to going home. Totally cynical.

[jung]

Before anybody gets the wrong idea, I don't want to suggest that there has not been advances in disc surgery during the last 20 years or so. However it is still at least in my estimation a very risky business as pumps suggests and the chances are still pretty good of not being much better off for having endured a very painful surgery with a long recovery period than if just continued with much less invasive efforts to limit the recurrence of pain and the depth of pain when you do have a recurrence.

[Elktonnick]

Excellent discussion. I learned a lot including the fact that it iis probably best to let Roy play elsewhere.

[redsoxfan3]

Excellent discussion. I learned a lot including the fact that it iis probably best to let Roy play elsewhere.

 

I got my hopes up too high. When we were in the dicussion for Kuroda, Oswalt, Jackson, and Saunders, I thought we were for sure going to land one. I specifically remember when they were saying we were close to completing a deal with Kuroda and that didn't work out. My thought process is that our team is what it is, and if we somehow get Oswalt then that would be fine, but at this point I have given up hope. Spring Training is too close to start for me to care. I just got my refund check back, so I am going to a lot of games in March. I am ready.

[a700hitter]

This off season continues to baffle me. If Oswalt is damaged goods and that's why no one wants him, then I don't want him either. If he is just going to be an expensive dumpster dive acquisition, that is not what we need. I wouldn't want him at any price. What this team needed going into the off season was a consistent starter who could take the ball 30+ times. If Oswalt is not the guy, why didn't they get someone else? They passed or missed out on Kuroda, Jackson, and even Saunders. What about a trade for a starter? Getting a starter should have been their primary goal. If it was, they have not executed their plan. If it wasn't their plan, I have to question their strategy. Bard could pitch like Roger Clemens or fail miserably or anything in between. We just don't know. It's a gamble. We will also be rolling the dice every 5th day on an assortment of garbage and hoping that 1 of them gets some traction. I don't get how this can be thought to be a sound plan. What happens if there are any injuries? If we weren't going to siign or acquire a starter, why dump Scutaro? Did they do that. to pay for Ortiz's raise? We keep hearing and reading that they are happy with their rotation, but how could that be? It seems like a big roll of the dice for a $170 million team. Then everyday their are reports about their interest in one starter or another. I don't know what to believe. The whole scenario makes very little sense.

[jung]

My thoughts exactly 700.

 

I hate to say it but the other thing that Oswalt's degenerative discs says is that this entire off season discussion about the Sox making a real effort to sign another starting pitcher has been a joke. This is not a criticism of the Sox FO from the perspective of exposing their true intentions. I would not be making my intentions blatantly known if I were them either. However I can no longer take seriously any effort on their part with regard to a SP.

 

To me, this means the last SP in the FA market that was a real possibility was Jackson and considering what they could have done, possibly even as far back as Berhlie. Oswalt is not help for this team and realistically he was never an option that mattered. Inserting Oswalt into this rotation would not have given us anything to cheer about.

 

Going after Berhlie hard was probably something that would have taken more courage than the Sox have shown lately but in truth that is likely what they would have had to do at least as it relates to FA pitchers. That would surely have meant passing on an Arbitration offer to Ortiz and that seems like it would have taken more courage than they have exhibited of late as well. A multiyear deal for Berhlie probably would have made more sense than trying to drag Jackson over here for something like $10M for one year. I could not see any possibility of the Sox offering Jackson something like $10M for one year. By then Ortiz arbitration offer had already been made and while we can muse about the Sox potential to have both offered Ortiz arbitration and signing a pitcher like Jackson, clearly Sox Management has decided to make additional expenditures an issue this year. It matters not the reasons why it is hard at this point to deny that the Sox have made it an issue.

 

I suppose there is still the chance that they trade for somebody. However that trade window is not very wide. There is a period where teams will consider making changes and then as the season gets closer that window closes and it does not realistically open again until you get close to the trading deadline.

 

As unlikely as it would have seemed to some a few months ago, it appears that the Sox are prepared to at least go into ST with either Bard or Aceves definitely making it to the rotation, possibly both which they have claimed to be ready to do. It is either that or one of the guys off the scrap heap distinguishes himself. But it would be a total surprise to have two of those guys off the scrap heap make it to the rotation. However unless something changes, the first injury to a rotation guy will result in one of those guys being inserted into the rotation even if he is not there on opening day.

[SoxSport]

If the problem is degenerative discs in his lower back then there is no way that his making it through a season is anything more than a major roll of the dice.

You can learn to live with degenerative discs while avoiding surgery. There are things you learn how to do a certain way or things you just don't do. However I doubt that pitching at a major league level sits on the safe side of the line.

 

 

Welcome to the club.

 

You don't usually get this until you're past 50. But athletes have a way of speeding up the age process. It's hard to say whether a guy can pitch every 5th day after spinal manipulation treatment, etc. Surgery is not an option. Spinal decompression is a good option. You get incrementally stretched on a table--to widen the disk spacings. Just had that done.

 

I think the Red Sox should pass on Oswalt. My hunch is Bard is going to be a much better starter than many expected. He's too good to be a setup guy.The other thing is the media is now placing a premium on having 6-7 starters. Since the media is almost never right on its pre-season predictions, I would discount that.

 

They should be OK with 4 reliable starters. The trick is to get that 4th starter who can fill in for one of the top 3 in case of injury. That was missing last year.