2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Muggah]

Sean White's best year was in Colorado in 2009. At the Winter X-games' date=' he won gold in the Snowboard Superpipe.... err, I mean posted a 2.80 ERA. Complete longshot, but since we're going the crapshoot route-- if a guy has a good year once, he can have one again.[/quote']

 

I knew he was a talented kid, but this is makes him very special indeed. LOL

[Muggah]

I "fell for it"? Take the bait? A Self-aggrandizing tangent? Sucker?

 

You need a life outside of posting on multiple Redsox forums and surfing the internet. You have nothing better to do than "baiting someone" then claiming it was part of some master plan? I ripped your comments apart, and thats your response? You sound like a petty antagonistic clown, and you sound like you are about 12 years old.

 

Just shut up. You are an idiot....oh wait, I shouldn't say that....the internet is your life, you consider this PERSONAL. Idiot.

 

And dont call me "Sweet Chins", I f***ing hate all those stupid ass nicknames you and the rest of your crew like to give everyone....

 

It sounds like you're upset. Did I say something to offend you?

[Can Of Corn]

Outside "my team," I am most interested to see how things shake out in Beantown this season. Boy wonder and Tito are out, Valentine in. Punto at SS? Will Oswalt frigging sign somewhere already?

[VA Sox Fan]

There are a lot of good posters here, Fred--very knowledgable and unafraid to face reality from what I see so far. But that doesn't mean there's not the usual contingency of pollyannas and apologists that generally resides in any Sox forum. And I'm sorry if some people find our approach a little 'brutal' as you put it, but you have to remember that some of us have seen this coming for years while the rumpswabs and the bonnetheads sat back and gave this ownership group free pass after free pass after free pass.

 

It's my opinion that these clueless 'feel goods' and "Sweet Caroline" people share as much responsibility for the demise of the team as that incompetent dope Blunder and space shot Henry do. Their adolescent hero worship of these has-beens and sacred cows speaks volumes about their understanding of the game, IMO, and despite the fact that many of them seem to be finally waking up to the gravity of the situation now, they're at least three years too late. The damage has been done and their enabling has been a factor.

 

We're approaching the time when even us realists tend to want to suspend our clear thinking and follow our hearts down a path that has us somehow winding up in the tall cotton at the end of the year. And this season is no different. Of course I want to believe we've got a shot this year at a playoff slot, but I've got to be realistic. The way I see it is it took five years of a 'solo' Blunder's incompetence and eight years of Francona's coddling to establish this 'culture of losing' that finally manifested itself in that humiliating collapse. That's a long time, and that's a culture that's grown some very deep roots. To think Valentine is going to successfully change that culture 180 degrees over one season is shortsighted IMO. And to be fair to the players, too--they're only human, and as is with any kind of dramatic 'change,' it takes time. Some will adapt faster than others, but as I'm sure we're about to see---others will either remain problems, or become bigger ones. From my POV, Valentine's job this year is to a) introduce change and a new system, salvage the salvageable, and c) weed out any remaining bad actors. If BV can accomplish those three goals he'll have set us up nicely and put us on a path to get back in the playoff hunt before the decade's half over.

 

Interesting opinion. If I understand you correctly, are you really saying that part of the fanbase was a factor in the Red Sox 2011 collapse? That's a new one and quite a stretch.

[Bellhorn04]

Muggah, man, you are in a certain category of fan that probably shouldn't even be described as a fan. I mean, you loathe and detest just about every single player and every member of management-as well as any other fan who supports the team verbally.

 

To use an analogy, you're kind of like the guy who goes to see someone perform but instead of cheering, heckles the guy mercilessly and pokes fun at the people around him who are cheering. You paid your admission and you're there to see the show, but are you really a fan? I'm not convinced that you are.

[example1]

Muggah, man, you are in a certain category of fan that probably shouldn't even be described as a fan. I mean, you loathe and detest just about every single player and every member of management-as well as any other fan who supports the team verbally.

 

To use an analogy, you're kind of like the guy who goes to see someone perform but instead of cheering, heckles the guy mercilessly and pokes fun at the people around him who are cheering. You paid your admission and you're there to see the show, but are you really a fan? I'm not convinced that you are.

 

Good call. That seems to be mostly what he brings to the table. He will undoubtedly be disappointed if they win next year.

[jung]

I have never viewed this team threw rose colored glasses and have often been hard on certain elements of the Sox organization and team. However least we all forget, winning the prize for a baseball team is difficult...much like batting where a 1:3 ratio of success is considered an excellent performance.

 

So it is far easier to expect things not to work out because more often than not things are not going to work out for a pro baseball team.

 

In addition, winning it all is our measure of success and I believe that the Team for the most part views success in those terms as well. Success for the Management Organization is generating enough top line revenue and bottom line rewards. If it can win it all as well....great but first and foremost they view their jobs in terms of their top and bottom line targets. I have to believe that has a great deal of influence on Baseball Operations.

[User Name]

It is the day before the Ortiz arbitration hearing' date=' and Roy Oswalt has yet to sign with any team. If the Red Sox win it, and save themselves the 4 million, what are the odds they increase their offer? They are continuing to sign scrap heap pitchers....[/quote']

 

According to reports, money is no longer the issue, but rather his willingness to play in Boston.

[User Name]

What's insufferable is constantly reading someone referring to themselves as a 'straight shooter' and a hard guy to people they not only don't know, but who couldn't care less in the first place. That's insufferable.

 

I'm sensing a lot of rumpswab in you so far. Forgive me if I'm wrong. And I apologize, too, if it bothers you that your 'insufferable' 'straight shooter' bit doesn't impress me in the least.

 

Give it a rest bro. You're not a "straight shooter" you're just an annoyance addicted to negativity.

[Palodios]

According to reports' date=' money is no longer the issue, but rather his willingness to play in Boston.[/quote']

 

Sure, it isn't an issue. However, if they offer more, it becomes an incentive.

[a700hitter]

Sure' date=' it isn't an issue. However, if they offer more, it becomes an incentive.[/quote']Since the season end, I have maintained that all this team needed was a few strategic changes and acquisitions. Since management failed miserably IMO in the last few years, changes needed to be made. Changes were made in a more sweeping manner than I had anticipated. This led me to believe that the new management would be similarly aggressive in addressing the roster needs. Well, it looks like I was wrong about that. Not only haven't they addressed the teams needs, but the team has become weaker since the season ended. The bullpen is thin, we have no everyday SS, and we have a giant hole in rotation. None of the guys that have been acquired as depth are the answer. Sound reason and logic should tell us that. I keep waiting and hoping for the one move that needs to be made, but it is not coming although we keep reading that the Sox are still in the running for Oswalt. I am hoping, but reason is telling me that if Ben wanted this guy, there would have been a press conference already. I think the FO is hoping that he signs somewhere else soon, so they no longer have to deal with this issue and make excuses.

 

All I have hoped for is one pitching acquisition, just one. I was happy to give up our starting SS to get the pitcher, but still nothing. I don't think these expectations are unreasonable at all. On the other hand, I think it is unreasonable to spend $170 million on a roster that seems very susceptible to spiraling down to the drain.

 

I realize that this tangent isn't responsive to your post, but I needed to get it out. As to your post, I 100% agree. In the larger scheme of things, a few million will have very little impact on the Red Sox, especially since they will be over the cap. However, a few million more would get Oswalt's name on a contract.

[ibot2much]

I am very worried about the left side of the plate......Scutero did his job and played even when he was injured...now we have a platoon there? Hopefully Youk is in great shape, but we don't know and finally what is happening in LF with Crowford out---not that he was fabulous there last year??

[iortiz]

Since the season end, I have maintained that all this team needed was a few strategic changes and acquisitions. Since management failed miserably IMO in the last few years, changes needed to be made. Changes were made in a more sweeping manner than I had anticipated. This led me to believe that the new management would be similarly aggressive in addressing the roster needs. Well, it looks like I was wrong about that. Not only haven't they addressed the teams needs, but the team has become weaker since the season ended. The bullpen is thin, we have no everyday SS, and we have a giant hole in rotation. None of the guys that have been acquired as depth are the answer. Sound reason and logic should tell us that. I keep waiting and hoping for the one move that needs to be made, but it is not coming although we keep reading that the Sox are still in the running for Oswalt. I am hoping, but reason is telling me that if Ben wanted this guy, there would have been a press conference already. I think the FO is hoping that he signs somewhere else soon, so they no longer have to deal with this issue and make excuses.

 

All I have hoped for is one pitching acquisition, just one. I was happy to give up our starting SS to get the pitcher, but still nothing. I don't think these expectations are unreasonable at all. On the other hand, I think it is unreasonable to spend $170 million on a roster that seems very susceptible to spiraling down to the drain.

 

I realize that this tangent isn't responsive to your post, but I needed to get it out. As to your post, I 100% agree. In the larger scheme of things, a few million will have very little impact on the Red Sox, especially since they will be over the cap. However, a few million more would get Oswalt's name on a contract.

BC has been saying that he feels comfortable with his pitching staff. BV has said that pitching is not his priority. On the other hand he has said that our team has more question marks than NY and TB. I just do not get it.

[a700hitter]

BC has been saying that he feels comfortable with his pitching staff. BV has said that pitching is not his priority. On the other hand he has said that our team has more question marks than NY and TB. I just do not get it.

The mixed messages coming from the FO seem almost irrational at times. They are certainly not articulating any coherent strategy.

[a700hitter]

User' date=' you and MVP may not agree with this but if the Red Sox had just given the two of them an unconditional release from the Red Sox last fall we wouldn't be talking about this now. Being a free agent means nothing if there is a chance that these two are still going to be resigned. With them released they could have tried to hook on with another team and we would have had the problem solved, but as some of us predicted they would not get an offer from another team, neither one would and that has happened and now they are invited to ST. What if they do show up--which I think they will. You will have Varitek lobbying the pitchers for support and Wakefield taking time and innings away from pitchers begging for a chance to show what they can do. We saw what Wakefield can do last summer and if you or others forgot, I didn't. He was a total abomination, could pitch, couldn't field, couldn't move. Valentine must make it clear that he does not these guys there.[/quote']The fact is that the Sox have given no indication in the press that they will be cutting ties with these guys. Bobby V has said that they probably would not make the team, but then the FO offers them minor league deals and invites them to camp? They have certainly left the door open. You are not crazy or paranoid in the least to be questioning what the Sox are doing in this regard. Larry L addressed the issue yesterday and acknowledged that they offered them minor league deals. That is not how you cut ties and move on.

[jung]

I suspect they think themselves a bit between the rock and a hard place. I have thought much of the commenting from the Sox this offseason has been about setting expectations...what to expect us to spend....how well you should expect us to perform....etc etc. They seem not to want to set the bar to high while at the same time not sound like they are setting to to low either. Sort of a tough line to toe effectively.

[a700hitter]

I suspect they think themselves a bit between the rock and a hard place. I have thought much of the commenting from the Sox this offseason has been about setting expectations...what to expect us to spend....how well you should expect us to perform....etc etc. They seem not to want to set the bar to high while at the same time not sound like they are setting to to low either. Sort of a tough line to toe effectively.

It is a tough line to toe, and I think they have succeeded at confusing everyone.

[iortiz]

The mixed messages coming from the FO seem almost irrational at times. They are certainly not articulating any coherent strategy.

 

... And if one of our 1-3 go to DL for a long period time and/or Bard/Aceves and/or dumpster diving signings s*** the bed, the justification will be "we weren't lucky, again" or " s*** happens" or "what else could we do?"...

[a700hitter]

... And if one of our 1-3 go to DL for a long period time and/or Bard/Aceves and/or dumpster diving signings s*** the bed' date=' the justification will be "we weren't lucky, again" or " s*** happens" or "what else could we do?"...[/quote']You know the script.

 

Edit: And at the trading deadline, they will justify doing nothing by saying that the cost of making moves was too high an they didn't want to mortgage the future for short term gain.

[Palodios]

Since the season end, I have maintained that all this team needed was a few strategic changes and acquisitions. Since management failed miserably IMO in the last few years, changes needed to be made. Changes were made in a more sweeping manner than I had anticipated. This led me to believe that the new management would be similarly aggressive in addressing the roster needs. Well, it looks like I was wrong about that. Not only haven't they addressed the teams needs, but the team has become weaker since the season ended. The bullpen is thin, we have no everyday SS, and we have a giant hole in rotation. None of the guys that have been acquired as depth are the answer. Sound reason and logic should tell us that. I keep waiting and hoping for the one move that needs to be made, but it is not coming although we keep reading that the Sox are still in the running for Oswalt. I am hoping, but reason is telling me that if Ben wanted this guy, there would have been a press conference already. I think the FO is hoping that he signs somewhere else soon, so they no longer have to deal with this issue and make excuses.

 

All I have hoped for is one pitching acquisition, just one. I was happy to give up our starting SS to get the pitcher, but still nothing. I don't think these expectations are unreasonable at all. On the other hand, I think it is unreasonable to spend $170 million on a roster that seems very susceptible to spiraling down to the drain.

 

I realize that this tangent isn't responsive to your post, but I needed to get it out. As to your post, I 100% agree. In the larger scheme of things, a few million will have very little impact on the Red Sox, especially since they will be over the cap. However, a few million more would get Oswalt's name on a contract.

 

We've been agreeing a lot lately. Strange.

 

That being said... I do think this is a good team. I think they're one move away from being World Series contenders again, but I think that getting that other pitcher is absolutely 100% crucial to the season.

 

We're looking at the same problem we saw last year-- replace a good player with a league average player, and you don't lose much for production. However, if you replace a guy like Buchholz with a guy like Kyle Weiland, not only do you lose most games with him on the mound, but it also kills your bullpen. That's just as big a problem, because it not only means you lose games with the bad pitcher on the mound, but you wear out your bullpen for when your quality pitchers are out there.

 

In 2010, the Red Sox's starters pitched 6.24 IP per game.

In 2011, the Red Sox's starters pitched 5.80 IP per game. Going into 2012, they replace their durable closer with a closer who will need rest, and move their setup guy into a starter role where he'll actually be contributing to the problem-- overworking the bullpen.

 

During Weiland's starts, he average 4.333 IP.

During Bedard's starts, he averaged 4.70 IP

During Miller's starts, he averaged 4.84 IP

During Aceve's starts, he averaged 5.02 IP

 

Lackey and Wakefield? Both around 6 IP.

 

Even if they keep you in the game for those innings, the bullpen has to pitch 4-5 more innings after they leave. These are similar to the numbers we'll see with guys like Padilla/Cook/Doubront/Tazawa out there. It will be a fundamental issue that is going to wreck havoc on their bullpen.

[jung]

Why don't they just come out and articulate themselves thusly.....Blah blah blah....blah blah....blah blah blah blah.

 

Save us the trouble.

[iortiz]

You know the script.

 

Edit: And at the trading deadline, they will justify doing nothing by saying that the cost of making moves was too high an they didn't want to mortgage the future for short term gain.

 

....or nobody was available.

 

We'll see how it ends, though.

[iortiz]

We've been agreeing a lot lately. Strange.

 

That being said... I do think this is a good team. I think they're one move away from being World Series contenders again, but I think that getting that other pitcher is absolutely 100% crucial to the season.

 

We're looking at the same problem we saw last year-- replace a good player with a league average player, and you don't lose much for production. However, if you replace a guy like Buchholz with a guy like Kyle Weiland, not only do you lose most games with him on the mound, but it also kills your bullpen. That's just as big a problem, because it not only means you lose games with the bad pitcher on the mound, but you wear out your bullpen for when your quality pitchers are out there.

 

In 2010, the Red Sox's starters pitched 6.24 IP per game.

In 2011, the Red Sox's starters pitched 5.80 IP per game. Going into 2012, they replace their durable closer with a closer who will need rest, and move their setup guy into a starter role where he'll actually be contributing to the problem-- overworking the bullpen.

 

During Weiland's starts, he average 4.333 IP.

During Bedard's starts, he averaged 4.70 IP

During Miller's starts, he averaged 4.84 IP

During Aceve's starts, he averaged 5.02 IP

 

Lackey and Wakefield? Both around 6 IP.

 

Even if they keep you in the game for those innings, the bullpen has to pitch 4-5 more innings after they leave. These are similar to the numbers we'll see with guys like Padilla/Cook/Doubront/Tazawa out there. It will be a fundamental issue that is going to wreck havoc on their bullpen.

Bravo Pal, Bravo. In Spud's words, Excellent f***ing post.

 

A700, I and among others have been saying this over and over again, but some call us pessimists.

[jung]

We're looking at the same problem we saw last year-- replace a good player with a league average player, and you don't lose much for production. However, if you replace a guy like Buchholz with a guy like Kyle Weiland, not only do you lose most games with him on the mound, but it also kills your bullpen. That's just as big a problem, because it not only means you lose games with the bad pitcher on the mound, but you wear out your bullpen for when your quality pitchers are out there.

 

I think one of the biggest issues you confront as a team in a DH league is the pressure on the staff including the relievers. There are no breaks anywhere in the lineup. You are under pressure from 1-9 to stave off run production by your opponent. Once you get behind with the other team into your pen you still have to find ways to keep their run production down or you have no shot at coming back once you get behind. Without the DH at the least every third inning and after the first 3-4 innings more like every other inning is an inning with a pretty sure out in it and that does make a pretty big difference between getting out of an inning unscathed and giving up more runs.

 

You can keep a reliever in there pointing toward that one easy out figuring you will have a good chance of getting out of that inning. Without that, once behind if your reliever lets some guys on base, you have to get him outta' there in hopes that you can stop the bleeding. Death for a pen or quicker death for a pen is guys getting used continually day after day even for short stints. The middle relief guys are much better off if they can come in and pitch 2 maybe 3 innings and sit for a couple of days instead of coming in today for an ineffective stint against 4-5 batters, then coming in tomorrow for another short ineffective stint against 4-5 more batters etc etc. They can take a little of that but not much before they are just done.

 

At least your closer is coming in for three outs and that is it. He does not have to get three outs and sit down only to come in again 15 minutes later after he has cooled down. Hence the closer has much more of an opportunity to survive multiple appearances . He gets up, warms, gets his three outs and he is done.

[a700hitter]

We've been agreeing a lot lately. Strange.

 

That being said... I do think this is a good team. I think they're one move away from being World Series contenders again, but I think that getting that other pitcher is absolutely 100% crucial to the season.

 

We're looking at the same problem we saw last year-- replace a good player with a league average player, and you don't lose much for production. However, if you replace a guy like Buchholz with a guy like Kyle Weiland, not only do you lose most games with him on the mound, but it also kills your bullpen. That's just as big a problem, because it not only means you lose games with the bad pitcher on the mound, but you wear out your bullpen for when your quality pitchers are out there.

 

In 2010, the Red Sox's starters pitched 6.24 IP per game.

In 2011, the Red Sox's starters pitched 5.80 IP per game. Going into 2012, they replace their durable closer with a closer who will need rest, and move their setup guy into a starter role where he'll actually be contributing to the problem-- overworking the bullpen.

 

During Weiland's starts, he average 4.333 IP.

During Bedard's starts, he averaged 4.70 IP

During Miller's starts, he averaged 4.84 IP

During Aceve's starts, he averaged 5.02 IP

 

Lackey and Wakefield? Both around 6 IP.

 

Even if they keep you in the game for those innings, the bullpen has to pitch 4-5 more innings after they leave. These are similar to the numbers we'll see with guys like Padilla/Cook/Doubront/Tazawa out there. It will be a fundamental issue that is going to wreck havoc on their bullpen.

We're agreeing a lot lately, because this isn't about philosophy or building a farm system. This issue is pretty clear cut. We both know what kind of roster it takes to be successful in the ALE. We might differ about how you get there, but we both know that this team is missing something. It's not missing much, but it is missing something crucial.

 

If someone showed me this post ^ and asked if I wrote it, I'd have to say that it looks like something that i would write. Don't let that scare you. Once the season starts, we'll probably find ourselves disagreeing about some stuff.

[a700hitter]

Bravo Pal, Bravo. In Spud's words, Excellent f***ing post.

 

A700, I and among others have been saying this over and over again, but some call us pessimists.

Pal is no pessimist. That is not an accusation that could be leveled at him. I think the answer is that some issues are so glaring, so stark that they really can't be disputed.

[example1]

We're agreeing a lot lately, because this isn't about philosophy or building a farm system. This issue is pretty clear cut. We both know what kind of roster it takes to be successful in the ALE. We might differ about how you get there, but we both know that this team is missing something. It's not missing much, but it is missing something crucial.

 

If someone showed me this post ^ and asked if I wrote it, I'd have to say that it looks like something that i would write. Don't let that scare you. Once the season starts, we'll probably find ourselves disagreeing about some stuff.

 

That post has actual research behind it. That means it wasn't from you. Your posts are often right, but you rarely put numbers in your posts. I would have been pretty surprised if that post had turned out to be yours.

[seabeachfred]

Muggah, man, you are in a certain category of fan that probably shouldn't even be described as a fan. I mean, you loathe and detest just about every single player and every member of management-as well as any other fan who supports the team verbally.

 

To use an analogy, you're kind of like the guy who goes to see someone perform but instead of cheering, heckles the guy mercilessly and pokes fun at the people around him who are cheering. You paid your admission and you're there to see the show, but are you really a fan? I'm not convinced that you are.

 

Well I'm convinced he is Bob and I know Muggah from way back during the 2007 season when he and I, along with a pack of psychotics, were worried sick about the Red Sox possibly blowing that big lead they had. I kept telling Muggah that we'd squeak by, one of my better predictions to be sure, and we all went apeshit on Dirt Dogs when the Sox won the World Series that year. Muggah cares too much, and he is angry and disgusted at what's gone down the last few years as most of his friends are.

 

I will tell him when I get the chance that he shouldn't have goaded SCM the way he did. That guy is one tough hombre and he is as rabid as they come. He's one guy Muggah should try to win to his side, not antagonize him. I know for a fact that he gives a s*** big time how the RedSox do.

 

I also think this clamor will die down somewhat when ST opens and we all can see for ourselves how all this shakes out. As tired as I am of reading about him, I do hope we can bag Roy Oswalt. He can't be that chicken s*** about playing in Fenway, can he?

[seabeachfred]

I have never viewed this team threw rose colored glasses and have often been hard on certain elements of the Sox organization and team. However least we all forget, winning the prize for a baseball team is difficult...much like batting where a 1:3 ratio of success is considered an excellent performance.

 

So it is far easier to expect things not to work out because more often than not things are not going to work out for a pro baseball team.

 

In addition, winning it all is our measure of success and I believe that the Team for the most part views success in those terms as well. Success for the Management Organization is generating enough top line revenue and bottom line rewards. If it can win it all as well....great but first and foremost they view their jobs in terms of their top and bottom line targets. I have to believe that has a great deal of influence on Baseball Operations.

 

Great insight Jung and damned hard to disagree with. What the front office might or might not know is that for fans the bottom line is winning and I sometimes believe we want the Red Sox to win more badly than they do, strange as that may seem to some people.

[Palodios]

Bravo Pal, Bravo. In Spud's words, Excellent f***ing post.

 

A700, I and among others have been saying this over and over again, but some call us pessimists.

 

Pal is no pessimist. That is not an accusation that could be leveled at him. I think the answer is that some issues are so glaring' date=' so stark that they really can't be disputed.[/quote']

 

I do actually like to think I'm a realist. I like this team's makeup, I like the bench, the offseason moves, and the depth they've accumulated. But they need a real starter.