2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[redsoxrules]

Who won last year? Who finished second? Which team has the best starting pitching? And who failed to make the playoffs? We are now WORSE than last year. Face facts.

 

its 2012 FFS .

 

is the pitching the same ? NO

they were bassicaly one bad streak away from making the playoffs.

something that if they would replay 100 times , 99 times they would have made it.

 

do us a favor and get off this site.

[redsoxrules]

its going to fun when the season starts and this team starts kicking ass and seing some of these posters leave

[FredLynn]

its 2012 FFS .

 

is the pitching the same ? NO

they were bassicaly one bad streak away from making the playoffs.

something that if they would replay 100 times , 99 times they would have made it.

 

do us a favor and get off this site.

 

I am going nowhere. Its folks like you that are such easy pickings that make this site enjoyable, if not challenging as a debate forum.

If we finished third last year and have not improved, then we will probably finish third again. Oh wait......we got Silva, Cook, and Germano. They should do the trick, right? Maybe Miller?

HAHAHAHAHA

[FredLynn]

its going to fun when the season starts and this team starts kicking ass and seing some of these posters leave

 

Here you go. I am providing some evidence that some experts also think that we are no better than THIRD BEST in the ALE right now. The Bleacher Report ranks us at #8, the Rays at #6, and the Yankees at #2 in baseball.

Maybe you can support YOUR position with some evidence too? Guess not.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1005295-mlb-power-rankings-rating-each-baseball-team-heading-into-2012#/articles/1005295-mlb-power-rankings-rating-each-baseball-team-heading-into-2012/page/31

[win red sox]

Who won last year? Who finished second? Which team has the best starting pitching? And who failed to make the playoffs? We are now WORSE than last year. Face facts.

 

maybe we should just cancel this season due to the fact that we finished in 3rd last year and there's no hope for this year. Better yet let's trade Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Gonzales for prospects and rebuild.

[redsoxrules]

I am going nowhere. Its folks like you that are such easy pickings that make this site enjoyable, if not challenging as a debate forum.

If we finished third last year and have not improved, then we will probably finish third again. Oh wait......we got Silva, Cook, and Germano. They should do the trick, right? Maybe Miller?

HAHAHAHAHA

 

who did the Yankee's get ?

[Bellhorn04]

What's beneath dumpster diving?

 

Sewage salvage?

[redsoxrules]

Here you go. I am providing some evidence that some experts also think that we are no better than THIRD BEST in the ALE right now. The Bleacher Report ranks us at #8, the Rays at #6, and the Yankees at #2 in baseball.

Maybe you can support YOUR position with some evidence too? Guess not.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1005295-mlb-power-rankings-rating-each-baseball-team-heading-into-2012#/articles/1005295-mlb-power-rankings-rating-each-baseball-team-heading-into-2012/page/31

 

oh, because bleacher report is 100 acurate and they decide who finishes 1 .

 

Seriously. The red sox had the best offense in the game last year and crawford was garbage and Youk missed time .

[jung]

I am glad some of the younger guys will likely pitch this year even if they are pressed into service. Not saying they will be world beaters...not saying they will all pan out....but I am glad we will get to see what they can do. One more arm like a Kuroda will not prevent some exposure for some of the younger pitchers in the organization so I am not weighing one against the other.

[FredLynn]

who did the Yankee's get ?

 

No one. They won the division as currently constructed last year.

Who did we get? Silva? Germano? Cook? Shopping in the dumpster for SP is not going to improve our team. Furthermore, if Bard starts, he doesn't relieve. And guess who our most effective bullpen pitcher was last year....thats right, Bard. Do you think Bard will toss 200 innings this year? Nope. Maybe 140. Then we are into Miller, and Silva, and Germano...and Cook.

Unless Cherington improves the SP, we will finish third again.

There will be a lot of people crying here in August.

[FredLynn]

oh, because bleacher report is 100 acurate and they decide who finishes 1 .

 

Seriously. The red sox had the best offense in the game last year and crawford was garbage and Youk missed time .

 

Is this your evidence? I gave you an assessment by experts; you gave me your opinion. Thats fine. This forum is OK for opinions. My opinion is that the offense is a given next year, but we cannot bash our way into a ring. We finished NINTH in the AL in ERA. That, simply, is not going to get it done.

[a700hitter]

Bullpen a wash' date=' well I can see Bard going back to the pen once dice-k gets back. The offense again will be top notch. [/quote']What starting pitchers have come back and been effective less than 18 months removed from TJ surgery.

[redsoxrules]

Is this your evidence? I gave you an assessment by experts; you gave me your opinion. Thats fine. This forum is OK for opinions. My opinion is that the offense is a given next year' date=' but we cannot bash our way into a ring. We finished NINTH in the AL in ERA. That, simply, is not going to get it done.[/quote']

 

exactly , useless

[FredLynn]

What starting pitchers have come back and been effective less than 18 months removed from TJ surgery.

 

He didn't require TJ surgery to be ineffective. He has never been effective, except for one year.

[FredLynn]

exactly ' date=' useless[/quote']

 

Hard to debate someone who denies the facts.

[redsoxrules]

Hard to debate someone who denies the facts.

 

It's hard to debate when you dont have any arguments except with you're " expert articles "

[User Name]

It's hard to debate when dont have any arguments except with you're " expert articles "

 

DFTT.

[a700hitter]

He didn't require TJ surgery to be ineffective. He has never been effective' date=' except for one year.[/quote']Very true.

[win red sox]

Is this your evidence? I gave you an assessment by experts; you gave me your opinion. Thats fine. This forum is OK for opinions. My opinion is that the offense is a given next year' date=' but we cannot bash our way into a ring. We finished NINTH in the AL in ERA. That, simply, is not going to get it done.[/quote']

 

to say the writers at Bleacherreport.com are experts is a reach, I read one article "what the red sox could get for Ellsbury" and it was a joke, some the examples were Ellsbury for Garza or Ellsbury for Morrow. Anyways, the point were we disagree is have the Sox improved? in my opinion yes, the reason of last years collapse was because of the 3-4-5 in the rotation. Buchholz, Bard, and even Doubrant is a huge upgrade. I don't know how anybody could disagree with that.

[win red sox]

What starting pitchers have come back and been effective less than 18 months removed from TJ surgery.

 

true, but i really think he will be motivated due to it being a contract year and maybe the Valentine effect.

[FredLynn]

It's hard to debate when you dont have any arguments except with you're " expert articles "

 

Wrong again.

Fact: if Bard starts, he isn't in the pen. The pen is, therefore, weaker, since he was the most effective reliever last year. Another fact is that he will not be able to toss 200 innings, no matter how effective he is. He will be limited.

Fact: we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year.

Fact: we have not improved our pitching. We lost our closer and gained two question marks.

Fact: we finished in third place last year. Since we have not improved we are likely not to finish much better.

Now lets hear your arguements. You gonna mention Cook and Silva and Germano and Miller?

[a700hitter]

true' date=' but i really think he will be motivated due to it being a contract year and maybe the Valentine effect.[/quote']All the motivation in the world can't speed up the healing process.

[Bellhorn04]

Wrong again.

Fact: if Bard starts, he isn't in the pen. The pen is, therefore, weaker, since he was the most effective reliever last year. Another fact is that he will not be able to toss 200 innings, no matter how effective he is. He will be limited.

Fact: we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year.

Fact: we have not improved our pitching. We lost our closer and gained two question marks.

Fact: we finished in third place last year. Since we have not improved we are likely not to finish much better.

Now lets hear your arguements. You gonna mention Cook and Silva and Germano and Miller?

 

Bobby Valentine is worth at least 5 games in the standings over last year, right? That has to put us in the low 90's on paper right there, regardless of upgrades.

[FredLynn]

Bobby Valentine is worth at least 5 games in the standings over last year' date=' right? That has to put us in the low 90's on paper right there, regardless of upgrades.[/quote']

 

So you agree with me that Francona cost the team at least five games every year? Is that what you are implying here?

[a700hitter]

Wrong again.

Fact: if Bard starts, he isn't in the pen. The pen is, therefore, weaker, since he was the most effective reliever last year. Another fact is that he will not be able to toss 200 innings, no matter how effective he is. He will be limited.

Fact: we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year.

Fact: we have not improved our pitching. We lost our closer and gained two question marks.

Fact: we finished in third place last year. Since we have not improved we are likely not to finish much better.

Now lets hear your arguements. You gonna mention Cook and Silva and Germano and Miller?

I posted this earlier in the thread, but saw little comment about it:

With 1 month to go before pitchers and catchers have to report to Fort Myers let's do a little recap of our off season.

 

We've lost Papelbon, Lowrie and Reddick. We lost Lackey to surgery.

 

We've picked up Melancon, Bailey, Sweeney, Punto and Shoppach..

 

How have these moves improved the team over last year's team that finished 3rd in the AL East. I think we are worse from a personnel standpoint. I don't understand the certainty that the 2012 Sox will end up with a better record than the 2011 team. They argue that it was the best team from May through August and that they will not start and end so bad. Maybe they don't start or end as bad, but why are they so certain they will play at the level they did from May through August. A 162 season evens things out. If you bring back a team that is not as good as last year, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a better result.

[Bellhorn04]

So you agree with me that Francona cost the team at least five games every year? Is that what you are implying here?

 

I'm implying that Terry had a very bad year last year.

[Bellhorn04]

I posted this earlier in the thread, but saw little comment about it:

How have these moves improved the team over last year's team that finished 3rd in the AL East. I think we are worse from a personnel standpoint. I don't understand the certainty that the 2012 Sox will end up with a better record than the 2011 team. They argue that it was the best team from May through August and that they will not start and end so bad. Maybe they don't start or end as bad, but why are they so certain they will play at the level they did from May through August. A 162 season evens things out. If you bring back a team that is not as good as last year, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a better result.

 

You're not a Valentine fan?

[User Name]

I'm feeling an urge to go read that Glenn Beck book now.....

[FredLynn]

I'm implying that Terry had a very bad year last year.

 

How many games did his "bad year" cost the team? I say at least five....and that he had a bad year every year.

[win red sox]

Wrong again.

Fact: if Bard starts, he isn't in the pen. The pen is, therefore, weaker, since he was the most effective reliever last year. Another fact is that he will not be able to toss 200 innings, no matter how effective he is. He will be limited.

Fact: we finished NINTH in ERA in the AL last year.

Fact: we have not improved our pitching. We lost our closer and gained two question marks.

Fact: we finished in third place last year. Since we have not improved we are likely not to finish much better.

Now lets hear your arguements. You gonna mention Cook and Silva and Germano and Miller?

 

Fact: Bard pitches 150 innings in the rotation and another 20-25 out of the pen. I really saw him as our 3rd most effective reliever last year behind Aceves and Papelbum.

Fact: We had Lackey,Wakefield,Miller and Weiland as our 3-4-5, that probaly had something to due with us finishing 9th in era.

Fact: We have improved our rotation with Buchholtz, Bard, Doubrant. Melancon and Baily were both excellent acquistions and will be comparable to Bard and Papelbum.

Fact: We did finish 3rd last year, but wasn't that because of the backend of starting rotation?

Fact: Gonzales was injured after the all star break, therefore had no power in the 2nd half

Fact: Youkilis injury effected the whole lineup, no power from rt side

Fact: Crawford will show significant improvement this year

Fact: Shoppach can actually throw to 2nd base.

 

Of course you can bring up this person or that person will get injured. Every team needs a little luck with injuries.