2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[FredLynn]

I don't know what your point is quoting me.

 

I've basically made two points: A) He does throw a circle-change, and it's a bit above average. B ) The Sox tweaked his mechanics. You pulled that scouting report from soxprospects, yet other sources mention the Sox having messed with his delivery a while back. That report is probably pretty old.

 

I have not issued a statement on Bowden's ability to pitch.

 

Let me help then: Bowden stinks. Bowden will always stink. He will never be a ML caliber pitcher. Good thing he has no options left so we can be rid of him once and for all this year.

[seabeachfred]

Fred, i don't think you understand the definition of "depth" under this scenario. "Depth" are guys you stash in the Minors in order to see if they may amount to something, while not counting on them.

 

You're too busy bashing the pitchers to see them for what they are: Second-tier options. There doesn't have to be a specific order to how you fill out your roster. If there is an order i had no idea about it.

 

And sometimes, you may just catch lightning in a bottle like the Yanks did last year.

 

I'm trying to clear up the way I was defining depth by the way. Not saying Fred doesn't know what the word "depth" means.

 

User, I get your definition of "depth" now, but we can't stash them all in the minors; some of them will have to be on the ML roster and I just don't feel comfortable with any of those names being in our rotation, or even in the bullpen for that matter. I would feel a helluva lot better if we could come up with a good No. 4 starter and another decent reliever. As for catching lightning in a bottle, the drinks would be on me if we could pull a Yankee rabbit out of the hat as they did last year.

[User Name]

Let me help then: Bowden stinks. Bowden will always stink. He will never be a ML caliber pitcher. Good thing he has no options left so we can be rid of him once and for all this year.

 

I can come to my own conclusion when i have more data to go off of. Thanks anyway. No offense.

 

User' date=' I get your definition of "depth" now, but we can't stash them all in the minors; some of them will have to be on the ML roster and I just don't feel comfortable with any of those names being in our rotation, or even in the bullpen for that matter. I would feel a helluva lot better if we could come up with a good No. 4 starter and another decent reliever. As for catching lightning in a bottle, the drinks would be on me if we could pull a Yankee rabbit out of the hat as they did last year.[/quote']

 

They can all be stashed in the minors. That's what a minor league contract is.

[a700hitter]

User' date=' I get your definition of "depth" now, but we can't stash them all in the minors; some of them will have to be on the ML roster and I just don't feel comfortable with any of those names being in our rotation, or even in the bullpen for that matter. I would feel a helluva lot better if we could come up with a good No. 4 starter and another decent reliever. As for catching lightning in a bottle, the drinks would be on me if we could pull a Yankee rabbit out of the hat as they did last year.[/quote']The guys that the Yankees had stashed away had been legit stars. Colon was the real long shot, but he could still throw around 92-93. The question was could he last te season. Freddie Garcia had won 12 games for the White Sox the prior season, so he was coming off a season where he proved that he could again hold down a rotation spot. He had won more than 10 games 8 times prior to 2011. Cook has won more than 10 games twice in 10 seasons and he has had a career filled with bad injuries.

[User Name]

The last time Bartolo pitched before 2011 he sucked and was averaging 89 MPH on his FB. Garcia could barely crack 90. Both had legit injury and ineffectiveness issues. Let's cut the ********.

[Bellhorn04]

The last time Bartolo pitched before 2011 he sucked and was averaging 89 MPH on his FB. Garcia could barely crack 90. Both had legit injury and ineffectiveness issues. Let's cut the ********.

 

LOL, true, most Yankee fans I heard from thought there was a very good chance Colon and Garcia were both going to stink and couldn't believe that's what they were going into the season with.

[Elktonnick]

I can come to my own conclusion when i have more data to go off of. Thanks anyway. No offense.

 

 

 

They can all be stashed in the minors. That's what a minor league contract is.

 

Can't because several are out of options. I think Bowden is one who is out. Cherry is looking to trade those because this limits their ability to be called up.

[User Name]

Can't because several are out of options. I think Bowden is one who is out. Cherry is looking to trade those because this limits their ability to be called up.

 

I was talking specifically about the SP options they signed during the offseason. Should have cleared that up.

 

Guys like Duckworth, Silva, Haeger, Cook, et al.

[jung]

I think the Sox as currently constructed can compete for a post season spot. I don't think they are legitimate contenders for the division as currently constructed. Frankly even with the new play-in I am not sure I care that much because I can't afford to just put my eggs in the "winning the division" basket.

 

As for post season play, while I buy the argument that the team that gets hot around the post season has the best chance of winning I don't buy that it is a complete crapshoot. The thing that concerns me about the Sox is that they are showing signs of both aging by the calendar and aging by virtue of simple wear.

 

Ortiz has clearly reached the period in his career where he may well age right before our eyes this coming season. Youk is brittle and the Sox decided not to opt for a DH solution that would allow his bat to stay in the lineup while getting him some rest at the same time. We closed off 1st base to him by bringing in AGons. Some have opined on this board that AGons really was complaining about scheduling and fatigue last year out of embarrassment over having been warned about the Home Run Derby before hand, choosing to ignore the warnings thus tweaking his shoulder.

 

I don't think that argument holds water. I do believe that he tweaked his shoulder. However if I were him I would not have tried to hide that behind the excuse of fatigue at the end of the season unless it were in fact true that he was fatigued.

 

Comparing the two I will take a guy that tweaked an injury that he has already proven that he can rehab over a guy that gets fatigued at the end of the season every time. You are asking me to believe that AGons decided to expose a potential chronic problem over an injury that he has proven he can rehab to complete heath or very close to complete health. My point is while I agree with AGons about scheduling and its impact on players some worse than others, I would not have mentioned that in the press at all costs. I take him at his word that he was in fact fatigued by the end of the year.

 

So we have Ortiz, old by virtue of the calendar, Youk, by virtue of potential injury and AGons, by virtue of fatigue by his own admission. That does not sound like a team that has a good shot to get hot at the post season should they get there.

 

I have argued here that if this is truly a staunch offense then we should be able to take one of those three bats out of the lineup and still be a staunch offense, particularly in the case of Youk. Youk had 80 RBI last season. Even a guy that gave you 40 would likely still have put the Sox within the top 2-3 scoring teams in baseball last year. He did score 68 times on only 17 HR so the fact that he got on base has to be considered as well. But tell me that I might very well be facing a shot Ortiz, a fatigued AGons and an injured Youk at the end of next season and even if everything else goes OK, that does not sound to me like a team with a good chance of getting hot for the post season.

 

Notice I have not even touched on the Sox biggest shortfall at the moment, their pitching.

[a700hitter]

Can't because several are out of options. I think Bowden is one who is out. Cherry is looking to trade those because this limits their ability to be called up.

Atchinson is also out of options.

[FredLynn]

Atchinson is also out of options.

 

This is from the other board I post on:

 

The Red Sox were gauging trade interest in some of their out-of-options pitchers at the GM Meetings this week, a source tells Alex Speier of WEEI.com. Franklin Morales, Andrew Miller, Felix Doubront, Michael Bowden and Scott Atchison are all out of options but aren't locks to make next year's bullpen, according to Speier, so Boston may decide to add or remove some of these players from the 40-man roster based on relative trade interest.

 

And BTW: I can think of a better place to stash away "pitchers" like Silva and Cook. In fact, I just flushed it.

[Spudboy]

Who was the TalkSox poster who loved this guy a couple of years ago:

 

That was Dojji.

[Spudboy]

So Fred, in the case that an injury happens or we need an extra starter for a doubleheader, would you like to see Andrew Miller pitch or one of the guys who you've assigned lame nicknames to?

 

People wanted pitching depth in face of last year's debacle, this is, by definition, pitching depth. You don't get guys who are viable rotation pitchers as depth because they are filling a spot in a rotation somewhere. This is the type of depth teams accumulate to overcome injuries and tough schedule stretches.

 

So who exactly do you want as depth? Enlighten me.

 

Excellent f***ing point.

[Meh]

The guys that the Yankees had stashed away had been legit stars. Colon was the real long shot' date=' but he could still throw around 92-93. The question was could he last te season. Freddie Garcia had won 12 games for the White Sox the prior season, so he was coming off a season where he proved that he could again hold down a rotation spot. He had won more than 10 games 8 times prior to 2011. Cook has won more than 10 games twice in 10 seasons and he has had a career filled with bad injuries.[/quote']

 

A guy who would be like a Garcia type would be Harden. You could get harden for like 1.5 million with some incentives which could push it to 4 or 5 million. Guys like Silva aren't guys like Colon and Garcia, they are like Millwood, Prior and Silva who the Yankees took last year. Now Cook looks interesting. I'm not going to say he's going to be a 3rd starter but out of all the guys you're taking a chance on, he's by FAR the best bet you have to stick.

[a700hitter]

A guy who would be like a Garcia type would be Harden. You could get harden for like 1.5 million with some incentives which could push it to 4 or 5 million. Guys like Silva aren't guys like Colon and Garcia' date=' they are like Millwood, Prior and Silva who the Yankees took last year. Now Cook looks interesting. I'm not going to say he's going to be a 3rd starter but out of all the guys you're taking a chance on, he's by FAR the best bet you have to stick.[/quote']Harden is closer to Garcia than Cook is.

[a700hitter]

Cubs, Tigers Talking Matt Garza

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [January 9 at 5:52pm CST]

 

The Cubs and Tigers are “down the road” in talks about a deal that would sent Matt Garza to Detroit for a package of prospects, according to David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com. The Yankees, Red Sox and Blue Jays have also expressed serious interest in Garza, Kaplan writes. However, the Yankees aren’t comfortable with the Cubs’ asking price despite their “tremendous” interest in the right-hander.

 

The Tigers appear to be willing to meet the Cubs’ asking price of multiple highly-regarded prospects, according to Kaplan. Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reported last week that the Tigers could move right-handed pitching prospect Jacob Turner in the right deal.

 

The Cubs are nearing a deal with free agent left-hander Paul Maholm. Ryan Dempster, Chris Volstad, Travis Wood and Randy Wells could fill the team’s rotation out and make Garza available. He’s under team control through 2013 and figures to earn $9MM or so in 2012 through arbitration.

More bad news for us if the Tigers get Garza.

[example1]

More bad news for us if the Tigers get Garza.

 

In terms of competition in the playoffs, probably. But in terms of competition to get into the playoffs, I don't think so. It would be fine with me if the Tigers just ran away with the AL Central every year and teams like Minn and CWS went into rebuilding mode. CWS has already said they are there.

[iortiz]

In terms of competition in the playoffs' date=' probably. But in terms of competition to get into the playoffs, I don't think so. It would be fine with me if the Tigers just ran away with the AL Central every year and teams like Minn and CWS went into rebuilding mode. CWS has already said they are there.[/quote']

 

Well I think he meant one less option. Arguably the best option (SP) that was still "available". IMO Garza > Kuroda or Oswalt, so...

[a700hitter]

Well I think he meant one less option. Arguably the best option (SP) that was still "available". IMO Garza > Kuroda or Oswalt' date=' so...[/quote']^ Bingo. Exactly. Plus, he would be the best fit for our payroll.

[seabeachfred]

Well it looks like Garza will be traded to the Tigers.....another possibility for us down the crapper. Maholm is close to signing with the Cubs......yet another down the crapper while Cherries Jubilee plays the fiddle while Fenway burns. Oh, that's right we now have Cookie, Millbum and Hi Ho Silva. Right, that ought to get us to the playoffs this year. I think that while we are powerless to get Prune Face to open his wallet, I believe the Boston press and media are going to have to light a fire under Henry's feet. I can't believe how cheap we've become, but at the same time we are signing up Ortiz who most likely could fall apart right before our eyes this season.

[Spudboy]

^ Bingo. Exactly. Plus' date=' he would be the best fit for our payroll.[/quote']

 

And the Sox could save on the water bill too.

[FredLynn]

You guys do realize that the odds of ANY team finding two SP like Colon and Garcia again are pretty small. Finding one of them would be unexpected. When was the last time that happened, when a team found two end of the rotation SP who actually contributed for most of the season like Colon and Garcia did? I can't remember it ever happening at that level.

Sure we need "depth" in SP. It should be a clue to everyone here how the FO regards our chances for a ring (no matter what kind of propaganda they perpetrate) when they hire bums like Miller, Silva, and Cook. Those are just warm bodies to throw at other teams; canon fodder. BTW: who was our #5 SP again?

[VA Sox Fan]

More bad news for us if the Tigers get Garza.

 

Well, at least I won't get nauseated every 5 games watching him spit/pitch. I hate missing a game but seriously considered missing his starts and picking back up in the later innings.

 

Just sayin'

[VA Sox Fan]

And the Sox could save on the water bill too.

 

[User Name]

Well it looks like Garza will be traded to the Tigers.....another possibility for us down the crapper. Maholm is close to signing with the Cubs......yet another down the crapper while Cherries Jubilee plays the fiddle while Fenway burns. Oh' date=' that's right we now have Cookie, Millbum and Hi Ho Silva. Right, that ought to get us to the playoffs this year. I think that while we are powerless to get Prune Face to open his wallet, I believe the Boston press and media are going to have to light a fire under Henry's feet. I can't believe how cheap we've become, but at the same time we are signing up Ortiz who most likely could fall apart right before our eyes this season.[/quote']

 

Absolutely cheap! Fielding a 176 million team is obviously a sign of cheapness.

[User Name]

Garza is massively overrated by the way.

[iortiz]

Well it looks like Garza will be traded to the Tigers.....another possibility for us down the crapper. Maholm is close to signing with the Cubs......yet another down the crapper while Cherries Jubilee plays the fiddle while Fenway burns. Oh' date=' that's right we now have Cookie, Millbum and Hi Ho Silva. Right, that ought to get us to the playoffs this year. I think that while we are powerless to get Prune Face to open his wallet, I believe the Boston press and media are going to have to light a fire under Henry's feet. [b'] I can't believe how cheap we've become, but at the same time we are signing up Ortiz who most likely could fall apart right before our eyes this season[/b].

Our #1 priority this offseason was the goddamn SP. Even a 6 year old could see that. Again, If we stay short (do not bring a solid SP) because Ortiz contract, Ben will be the "boob".

[FredLynn]

Our #1 priority this offseason was the goddamn SP. Even a 6 year old could see that. Again' date=' If we stay short (do not bring a solid SP) because Ortiz contract, Ben will be the "boob".[/quote']

 

Ben was told how much money he had to spend. He spent it. You cannot make bricks without straw. I don't blame Ben. I don't even blame the owners this time around. This debacle is on Epstein. We will be cleaning up his mess for years to come.

[iortiz]

Ben was told how much money he had to spend. He spent it. You cannot make bricks without straw. I don't blame Ben. I don't even blame the owners this time around. This debacle is on Epstein. We will be cleaning up his mess for years to come.

 

If the money is show stopper this season, fine. If true, why in the hell sign Ortiz instead of bringing the SP (assuming we go like this, of course)?. Of course you won't likely be the best offense but at least you would've been more balanced and IMO with more chances to compete.

[FredLynn]

If the money is show stopper this season' date=' fine. If true, why in the hell sign Ortiz instead of bringing the SP (assuming we go like this, of course)?. Of course you won't likely be the best offense but at least you would've been more balanced.[/quote']

 

My guess is that they were hoping Ortiz's ego would prevent him from accepting arbitration. If they didn't offer him arbitration, he would be gone with no compensation at all. If they offered it and he declined, he would be gone, but they would get two draft picks. Unfortunately, they guessed wrong; arbitration was offered and he accepted it. Thats the worst possible outcome. It would have been better, in retrospect, to have said good bye to him.