2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

Two points:

 

1. At least Ben only spends $1.5 on his bag of trash. Theo spent $12.5 million on his dumpster diving before the 2009 season. ($5 million for Smoltz, $5 million for Penny and $2.5 for Baldelli). That was truly a ridiculous amount of money to spend on those moves.

 

2. Keith Foulke had a devastating changeup. That was his out pitch, and it was a plus plus pitch. He only threw the fastball and changeup and his fast ball was nothing special. Bowden has no plus pitches. He stinks. He should not take up a roster spot. Some day he may be a decent middle of the bullpen reliever, but let someone else train him to reach his potential as middle bullpen garbage. DFA him and take the risk that someone else wants him, and if someone else grabs him, pray like hell that our lineup has the chance to face him. This is a case where stats are used to mislead. Bowden is not Keith Foulke. The only thing the two of them have in common is that both were one 24 years old.

[Station 13]

In addition to my previous post in reference to the #4 starter, I forgot to mention Paul Maholm. I think he would be a good addition in that role if he can duplicate his 3.66 ERA and 1.294 WHIP from last year. I know those number might increase some because he is pitching in the AL East, but if he replicates those numbers from last year, or simlar numbers, then he could play a vital role for this team in the #4 spot. He has a career ERA of 4.36 and a career WHIP of 1.424, so that concerns me a little bit. He also only pitched 162.1 innings last year. If he could somehow increase that to 180-200, keep his ERA right around 4.00 or lower, and have a decent WHIP, then he would be a good addition to this team in the rotation. That would be a good pickup since he is cheap. I would prefer Oswalt over Maholm, but Maholm is probably more realistic. We are also keeping an eye on Saunders, who would be an innings eater for sure. He could probably also keep his ERA right around 4.00. I feel that the addition of either Saunders or Maholm could round out the rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Bard. Like I said, I would prefer Oswalt to those two, but cheap is the way we are going, so Saunders or Maholm are probably more likely.

 

.

 

Maholm would be a nice pick up. Groundballer and limit is walk. . His price must be pretty demanding that he's still without a team at this point.

[Bellhorn04]

Two points:

 

1. At least Ben only spends $1.5 on his bag of trash. Theo spent $12.5 million on his dumpster diving before the 2009 season. ($5 million for Smoltz, $5 million for Penny and $2.5 for Baldelli). That was truly a ridiculous amount of money to spend on those moves.

 

Baldelli only made 500K. He was an OK pickup for utility OF, .744 OPS, 7 HR, 23 RBI in 150AB.

[example1]

Based on his 60 innings of mop-up duty, perhaps. Again, though, 24 is still quite young for a MLB reliever.

 

As for the mechanics, they haven't forced him to change it, but as he said himself, they have tinkered with him on a yearly basis.

[example1]

A700 why does it hurt you to have Bowden pitching sub 3.00 era ball for the Pawsox? Why are you so against that?

[Bellhorn04]

The Penny signing didn't work very well, no question, and Smoltz was just a washout. What's funny about Penny, though, is that he moved on to 3 other teams after leaving us. In 2010 the Cardinals paid him 7.5 million for only 55 innings work. Some junk really moves around.

[a700hitter]

Maholm would be a nice pick up. Groundballer and limit is walk. . His price must be pretty demanding that he's still without a team at this point.

Let's pair up the s***** right hander Cook with a s***** left hander, Maholm. At least we would preserve symmetry.

[a700hitter]

Baldelli only made 500K. He was an OK pickup for utility OF' date=' .744 OPS, 7 HR, 23 RBI in 150AB.[/quote']Still a ridiculous amount was spent dumpster diving that off season.

 

Edit: I think Baldelli got a signing bonus in addition to the $500k

[a700hitter]

A700 why does it hurt you to have Bowden pitching sub 3.00 era ball for the Pawsox? Why are you so against that?

I'm fine with him pitching at Pawtucket. The problem is that he is out of options, so someone can pick him up. I have a problem with him taking up an ML roster spot, because he is out of options.

[Station 13]

Let's pair up the s***** right hander Cook with a s***** left hander' date=' Maholm. At least we would preserve symmetry.[/quote']

 

Cook is s***. Career 3.8K/9. That's why he's on a minor deal. His chances of getting call up is about as good as Bowden being called upon to pitch the 8th.

 

Maholm is a backend starter that gets a lot of groundballs. Walks under 3 and limit the HR ball. What's to hate? if he's on a reasonable deal he could be worth 2.5 WAR, about what is expected for a #5 starter.

 

Kuroda is not that much better than Maholm and he's asking a ton for a #4 starter. We used to pay aces $15M a year now #4 starters are getting that. Yuck.

 

Malohm 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.1 WAR

Kuroda 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.4 WAR

 

Kuroda edges out in xFIP only because he has a slightly better K rates. But Maholm is a groundballer and given up half the HRs. If Kuroda is $12M and Maholm is $6M. Take Maholm contract anytime.

[a700hitter]

Cook is s***. Career 3.8K/9. That's why he's on a minor deal. His chances of getting call up is about as good as Bowden being called upon to pitch the 8th.

 

Maholm is a backend starter that gets a lot of groundballs. Walks under 3 and limit the HR ball. What's to hate? if he's on a reasonable deal he could be worth 2.5 WAR, about what is expected for a #5 starter.

 

Kuroda is not that much better than Maholm and he's asking a ton for a #4 starter. We used to pay aces $15M a year now #4 starters are getting that. Yuck.

 

Malohm 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.1 WAR

Kuroda 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.4 WAR

 

Kuroda edges out in xFIP only because he has a slightly better K rates. But Maholm is a groundballer and given up half the HRs. If Kuroda is $12M and Maholm is $6M. Take Maholm contract anytime.

There's nothing to like about Maholm. He stinks plus he had a shoulder injury last year.

[Station 13]

There's nothing to like about Maholm. He stinks plus he had a shoulder injury last year.

 

he won't cost a fortune like Oswalt/Kuroda. Hey Oswalt has injuries too and he's older. I swear everyone here wants Oswalt (including me).

[a700hitter]

This list was my first look at the FA pitcher list for 2013. If Cain and/or Hammel extend with their teams, this lt doesn't have very much to offer. For those who have been weighing in that the Sox should wait until next year to dip into the FA pool, I am not sure that it will be worth the wait.

 

Starting pitchers

Scott Baker (31) - $9.25MM club option

Joe Blanton (32)

Matt Cain (28)

Fausto Carmona (29) - $9MM club option

Aaron Cook (34)

Kevin Correia (32)

Jorge De La Rosa (32) - $11MM player option with a $1MM buyout

Ryan Dempster (36)

R.A. Dickey (38) - $5MM club option with a $300K buyout

Scott Feldman (29) - $9.25MM club option with a $600K buyout

Gavin Floyd (30) - $9.5MM club option

Freddy Garcia (37)

Zack Greinke (28)

Jeremy Guthrie (34)

Cole Hamels (29)

Dan Haren (32) - $15.5MM club option with a $3.5MM buyout

Tim Hudson (37) - $9MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Colby Lewis (33)

Francisco Liriano (29)

Kyle Lohse (34)

Derek Lowe (40)

Shaun Marcum (31)

Jason Marquis (34)

Daisuke Matsuzaka (32)

Brandon McCarthy (29)

Brett Myers (32) - $10MM club option with a $3MM buyout

Carl Pavano (37)

Jake Peavy (31) - $22MM club option with a $4MM buyout

Anibal Sanchez (29)

Jonathan Sanchez (30)

Ervin Santana (30) - $13MM club option with a $1MM buyout

James Shields (31) - $9MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout

Chien-Ming Wang (33)

Jake Westbrook (35) - $8.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout if club declines

Dontrelle Willis (31)

Randy Wolf (36) - $10MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout

Carlos Zambrano (32) - $19.25MM player option depending on Zambrano's Cy Young voting placement

[a700hitter]

he won't cost a fortune like Oswalt/Kuroda. Hey Oswalt has injuries too and he's older. I swear everyone here wants Oswalt (including me).

The guy (Maholm) is a step up from Wakefield if healthy, but that is about it.

[Station 13]

The guy (Maholm) is a step up from Wakefield if healthy' date=' but that is about it.[/quote']

 

Minus all the s*** like HRs, SBs, PBs, WPs,

 

Maholm is worth a look at the right price.

[a700hitter]

Who was the TalkSox poster who loved this guy a couple of years ago:

 

Blue Jays Designate Mark Teahen For Assignment

By Tim Dierkes [January 9 at 9:42am CST]

 

The Blue Jays designated third baseman Mark Teahen for assignment to open a 40-man roster spot for Darren Oliver, announced the team.

 

The Jays acquired Teahen from the White Sox as part of a salary dump, and they'll be assuming the $5.5MM left on his contract for 2012. The 30-year-old hit .200/.273/.300 in 177 plate appearances last year, playing the infield and outfield corners.

 

Teahen was a big component of the 2004 trade that sent Carlos Beltran to the Astros. He couldn't sustain a strong partial season in 2006 for the Royals, and was traded to the White Sox in November of '09. A few months later the Sox signed him to a surprising three-year, $14MM extension.

[a700hitter]

Minus all the s*** like HRs, SBs, PBs, WPs,

 

Maholm is worth a look at the right price.

I don't care what he makes. He shouldn't be competing for a rotation spot.

[a700hitter]

Okay Ben, I have had it with the waiting nonsense. All the good pitchers have already come off the board and we have been told to be patient. We were reading that you are waiting for prices to come down as more and more guys came off the board. We were told that you might have some under the radar moves, but Aaron Cook? Goodness! Some people are saying that we should wait until next season when the FA pitching crop will be better, but with the exception of Hammel and Cain, it doesn't look promising at all. Cain and/or Hammel will probably re-sign with their current teams or the Yanks will outbid us. So, I don't know what you are waiting for and i don't know whether you have a rabbit in your hat, but if you do have a plan, get to it already. Take your the thumb out of your ass and finish building this team. I have had enough boredom already for the entire Fall and Winter.

[FredLynn]

Okay Ben' date=' I have had it with the waiting nonsense. All the good pitchers have already come off the board and we have been told to be patient. We were reading that you are waiting for prices to come down as more and more guys came off the board. We were told that you might have some under the radar moves, but Aaron Cook? Goodness! Some people are saying that we should wait until next season when the FA pitching crop will be better, but with the exception of Hammel and Cain, it doesn't look promising at all. Cain and/or Hammel will probably re-sign with their current teams or the Yanks will outbid us. So, I don't know what you are waiting for and i don't know whether you have a rabbit in your hat, but if you do have a plan, get to it already. Take your the thumb out of your ass and finish building this team. I have had enough boredom already for the entire Fall and Winter.[/quote']

 

The recent signings of Aces Aaron Cook and Carlos Silva along with the earlier signing of Andrew Millbum...OOPS...Miller....and the anticipated signing of Tim Wakefield should tell everyone here what the FO strategy is for this year.

Its "wait 'till next year". We aren't getting anyone of note whatsoever. What you see is what you get. And its pretty pathetic.

[a700hitter]

Cubs Trying For Agreement With Maholm

By Tim Dierkes [January 9 at 10:59am CST]

 

The Cubs and free agent lefty Paul Maholm are trying to work out an agreement, tweets Bruce Levine of ESPNChicago. Maholm has been linked to several other suitors this offseason, but most have since added starters.

 

The Cubs' current projected rotation has Matt Garza, Ryan Dempster, Chris Volstad, Travis Wood, and Randy Wells, perhaps with Andy Sonnanstine and Casey Coleman in the mix for the fifth starter job. In theory, signing Maholm could give the Cubs the depth to move Garza, even if Maholm is more of a back-end guy.

Hopefully, the Cubs sign this turd and they trade us Garza.

[User Name]

Scouting Report: Bowden has an arsenal of four pitches: (1) an 88-92 mph four-seam fastball that can top out around 94 mph' date=' (2) an average 12-6 hard breaking curve, (3) an excellent circle changeup, and (4) an 83-85 mph slider that he added in 2009, which he hopes to use as an out pitch down the line. Also developing a cutter in 2011. His main pitch - the four-seamer - has a late, heavy sinking movement, and he generally keeps it down in the zone. Bowden can also work in a two-seamer that is a few mph off of his four-seamer, with a bit more movement. His deceptive changeup sits in the low-80s, about 10 mph off of his fastball, with action moving away from lefties. His mid-70s curve is sharp and he keeps hitters at bay with it, but he definitely telegraphs it too often. Overall, Bowden has an excellent command of the zone. One aspect that should come with more experience is improved pitchability against advanced hitters. [b']His mechanics are somewhat unconventional in that his delivery is quite compact and he doesn't pull back with a lot of torque. Relies more on arm strength than leverage. [/b]Still, he's able to maintain consistent arm action throughout his outings, so the Sox haven't messed with his delivery. Bowden is said to be a workaholic and just loves to pitch - another player who just lives and dies for baseball. Very athletic and focused and intense on the mound

 

Based on what we have seen of him in the Bigs, I'd say this scouting report is overly generous.

 

I don't know what your point is quoting me.

 

I've basically made two points: A) He does throw a circle-change, and it's a bit above average. B ) The Sox tweaked his mechanics. You pulled that scouting report from soxprospects, yet other sources mention the Sox having messed with his delivery a while back. That report is probably pretty old.

 

I have not issued a statement on Bowden's ability to pitch.

[seabeachfred]

Two points:

 

1. At least Ben only spends $1.5 on his bag of trash. Theo spent $12.5 million on his dumpster diving before the 2009 season. ($5 million for Smoltz, $5 million for Penny and $2.5 for Baldelli). That was truly a ridiculous amount of money to spend on those moves.

 

2. Keith Foulke had a devastating changeup. That was his out pitch, and it was a plus plus pitch. He only threw the fastball and changeup and his fast ball was nothing special. Bowden has no plus pitches. He stinks. He should not take up a roster spot. Some day he may be a decent middle of the bullpen reliever, but let someone else train him to reach his potential as middle bullpen garbage. DFA him and take the risk that someone else wants him, and if someone else grabs him, pray like hell that our lineup has the chance to face him. This is a case where stats are used to mislead. Bowden is not Keith Foulke. The only thing the two of them have in common is that both were one 24 years old.

 

A little harsh my friend but very close to the absolute truth. Bowden might still be salvagable even though I wouldn't put money on it. Now if you were talking about Andrew Miller or Hi Ho Silva we'd really be simpatico. Why they were signed flies right over my head. Miller sucks pure and simple. He has little control and when he lets up and lays it in it is Red Sox carnage. Hi Ho is the starter's version of Snacks Jenks, unless he has lost a lot of weight lately, but I doubt if it would do much for his pitching. His last couple of years proves that. Foulke did have a terrific changeup and that made his average fastball look faster than it was. As we know pitching is mainly throwing the hitter's timing off. Foulke was good at that. These other guys, and maybe Cook is now in this ensemble, the only timing in their case is the batter timing one of their lame pitches and belting it all over the ballpark.

[seabeachfred]

Cook is s***. Career 3.8K/9. That's why he's on a minor deal. His chances of getting call up is about as good as Bowden being called upon to pitch the 8th.

 

Maholm is a backend starter that gets a lot of groundballs. Walks under 3 and limit the HR ball. What's to hate? if he's on a reasonable deal he could be worth 2.5 WAR, about what is expected for a #5 starter.

 

Kuroda is not that much better than Maholm and he's asking a ton for a #4 starter. We used to pay aces $15M a year now #4 starters are getting that. Yuck.

 

Malohm 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.1 WAR

Kuroda 2011: 3.78 FIP 2.4 WAR

 

Kuroda edges out in xFIP only because he has a slightly better K rates. But Maholm is a groundballer and given up half the HRs. If Kuroda is $12M and Maholm is $6M. Take Maholm contract anytime.

 

Well said Station 13, but let's face it, arguing that Malholm is a better bet than stiffs like Bowden, Cook and Hi Ho Silva is such a no brainer that I thought you might even be embarrassed to say it, but glad you did. Now Maholm is not the answer to a maiden's prayer but he brings a hell of a lot more to the table than those other guys. Cook would have to undergo a complete metamorphasis to return to what he was in 2008, Hi Ho couldn't do that in a decade, and poor Bowden seems to be just an effective AAA pitcher who g ets in over his head when facing ML batters---sad to say. I could again mention Andrew Miller but my breakfast is still gurgling in my stomach and don't want to take a chance of retching. BTW, do you know how much Maholm wants to sign?

[seabeachfred]

The guy (Maholm) is a step up from Wakefield if healthy' date=' but that is about it.[/quote']

 

He's also a couple of steps above Andrew Miller and Ho Ho Silva as well. About now 700, we're in desperation city and and anything that looks like an improvement has to be clutched on for dear life. Malholm is an improvement, maybe just a little but an improvement nonetheless. Tells you how bad off we are, doesn't it?

[User Name]

Well said Station 13' date=' but let's face it, arguing that Malholm is a better bet than stiffs like Bowden, Cook and Hi Ho Silva is such a no brainer that I thought you might even be embarrassed to say it, but glad you did. Now Maholm is not the answer to a maiden's prayer but he brings a hell of a lot more to the table than those other guys. Cook would have to undergo a complete metamorphasis to return to what he was in 2008, Hi Ho couldn't do that in a decade, and poor Bowden seems to be just an effective AAA pitcher who g ets in over his head when facing ML batters---sad to say. I could again mention Andrew Miller but my breakfast is still gurgling in my stomach and don't want to take a chance of retching. BTW, do you know how much Maholm wants to sign?[/quote']

 

So Fred, in the case that an injury happens or we need an extra starter for a doubleheader, would you like to see Andrew Miller pitch or one of the guys who you've assigned lame nicknames to?

 

People wanted pitching depth in face of last year's debacle, this is, by definition, pitching depth. You don't get guys who are viable rotation pitchers as depth because they are filling a spot in a rotation somewhere. This is the type of depth teams accumulate to overcome injuries and tough schedule stretches.

 

So who exactly do you want as depth? Enlighten me.

[Muggah]

The recent signings of Aces Aaron Cook and Carlos Silva along with the earlier signing of Andrew Millbum...OOPS...Miller....and the anticipated signing of Tim Wakefield should tell everyone here what the FO strategy is for this year.

Its "wait 'till next year". We aren't getting anyone of note whatsoever. What you see is what you get. And its pretty pathetic.

 

 

Anyone picking this team to finish above 3rd place in the AL East is dreaming. Sorry, but it just ain't happening. And like I've said before, and I know you agree with, Pumpsie---3rd place in the division isn't exactly a lock either. I can see the Jays giving us a good run for that spot. They're marginally better team right now.

[User Name]

Wow.

[seabeachfred]

So Fred, in the case that an injury happens or we need an extra starter for a doubleheader, would you like to see Andrew Miller pitch or one of the guys who you've assigned lame nicknames to?

 

People wanted pitching depth in face of last year's debacle, this is, by definition, pitching depth. You don't get guys who are viable rotation pitchers as depth because they are filling a spot in a rotation somewhere. This is the type of depth teams accumulate to overcome injuries and tough schedule stretches.

 

So who exactly do you want as depth? Enlighten me.

 

Well User, I would like to have some pitchers who could get batters out on a pretty consistent basis, and, sorry, Miller and Silva and now Cook aren't the guys I want to take a chance on getting those guys out. Rainout vs the Yankees on Friday night; double header Saturday at Fenway. Lester goes out in the first game and beats the Yankees, 7-3. Chance for a sweep? Sorry, not with that sad band of stiffs. See my point? You want Millbum, Hi Ho Silva or Cookie going out there and getting us that sweep?

 

Decent pitchers were on that board at 700 pointed out and now they are mostly gone. We haven't even solidified our regular rotation and that has to come first, then we can concentrate on the depth. Unless you think these guys are the answer for the back end of our rotation, which, in this case means that maybe my optimism for this season was misplaced. We went this route in 2009 remember? It worked for a time and then came all undone. Quality over quantity every time User. Get a good No. 4 man and then we can sign these kind of fill-ins and take our chances.

[User Name]

Well User, I would like to have some pitchers who could get batters out on a pretty consistent basis, and, sorry, Miller and Silva and now Cook aren't the guys I want to take a chance on getting those guys out. Rainout vs the Yankees on Friday night; double header Saturday at Fenway. Lester goes out in the first game and beats the Yankees, 7-3. Chance for a sweep? Sorry, not with that sad band of stiffs. See my point? You want Millbum, Hi Ho Silva or Cookie going out there and getting us that sweep?

 

Decent pitchers were on that board at 700 pointed out and now they are mostly gone. We haven't even solidified our regular rotation and that has to come first, then we can concentrate on the depth. Unless you think these guys are the answer for the back end of our rotation, which, in this case means that maybe my optimism for this season was misplaced. We went this route in 2009 remember? It worked for a time and then came all undone. Quality over quantity every time User. Get a good No. 4 man and then we can sign these kind of fill-ins and take our chances.

 

Fred, i don't think you understand the definition of "depth" under this scenario. "Depth" are guys you stash in the Minors in order to see if they may amount to something, while not counting on them.

 

You're too busy bashing the pitchers to see them for what they are: Second-tier options. There doesn't have to be a specific order to how you fill out your roster. If there is an order i had no idea about it.

 

And sometimes, you may just catch lightning in a bottle like the Yanks did last year.

 

I'm trying to clear up the way I was defining depth by the way. Not saying Fred doesn't know what the word "depth" means.

[User Name]

Anyone picking this team to finish above 3rd place in the AL East is dreaming. Sorry' date=' but it just ain't happening. And like I've said before, and I know you agree with, Pumpsie---3rd place in the division isn't exactly a lock either. I can see the Jays giving us a good run for that spot.[b'] They're marginally better team right now.[/b]

 

Can't keep quiet on this. It may be one of the dumbest things i've read on this site. I get the "being negative" s***, but Jesus.