2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[User Name]

Just pointing out that it is YOU who is flying off the handle about what I write, not the reverse.

And reminding you that some of the nonsense you write DOES reflect short-sightedness.

 

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[win red sox]

Anyone saying they aren't good enough to be in contention this year are f***ING CRAZY.

 

Seriously.

 

This is a rebuilding year? Are you serious? They are about to sign Ortiz to an overpay one year contract. You don't do that if you're rebuilding. They have two players who will be getting an AAV over 20m and that pay essentially starts this year and goes for another 6 or 7 years. Rebuilding? Seriously?

 

They have three pitchers in their primes, all of whom have been All Stars in the past two years. They have a few holes in their pitching staff, but will be addressing those before the season starts.

 

They have the best offense in baseball, have gold glovers all over the field and multiple silver sluggers. They have three players who finished in the top 10 in MVP voting, and were the 3rd, 5th and 6th most valuable players in the AL according to WAR.

 

You would have to assume that this FO is not just incompetent, but is all-time great incompetent to do some rebuilding project for future years. All those years they didn't trade Buchholz, Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia were for these seasons.

 

Pumpsie, to theorize that a rebuilding season is the only sensible thing they can do is absurd. Laughable.

 

You are joking, right? You really think Cherington is going to undertake a rebuilding this year?

 

agreed, just with a healthy Buchholz the pitching staff is better and with a healthy a Youkilis the offense improves. And reference the backend of the rotation, but Bard and whoever cannot be worse than Lackey,Wakefield and Miller. This team won 90 games with only 2/5 of their starting rotation performing up to standards and Losing there only power hitter from the rt side towards the end of the year. I explect 95-100 wins and a playoff spot.

[example1]

Rebuilding is different for the Red Sox than it is for, say, the Twins. We do not have to start from scratch as some other teams do. When I refer to "rebuilding" I mean that we are trying to rebuild a team that can realistically compete for a ring. As I said earlier, we will most likely compete for a playoff position, but IMO the team will fall short of that too. For those people who think that winning 90 games next year represents contending, it will be a great year for them. For me, a very good year is going deep into the playoffs and at least having a shot at the fall classic. I don't see that happening next year, and I have some very good reasons for believing that even if Username keeps having hissy fits at regular intervals in response to what I write.

 

What are your reasons for believing it?

 

What makes this team so much worse than the 2003, 2004, 2007 or 2008 teams that "competed" deep into the playoffs?

 

I don't think that winning 90 games next year represents contending. I think that 90 wins is a disappointment for this much talent.

 

The 2011 team could have started 4-8 (rather than 2-10) and would have won 92 games.

The 2011 team could have finished 10-17 (rather than 7-20) and would have won 93 games.

 

If the team repeats last year's production, but starts out 4-8 and finishes 10-17 (not out of the question for a team that led the AL East for much of the season) they are suddenly a 95 win team.

 

If they play at .500 during those stretches (6-6 and, say, 13-14) they win 100 games.

 

We're talking about a difference of 5 wins over 162 games here. Teams don't rebuild when they are that close on paper.

 

If they are 20 games out at the All-Star break then they will do some retooling, but this isn't a rebuilding offseason.

[FredLynn]

I agree with you that this team is a few tweaks from a very good club. I've been saying it all along. There are a few holes that need tending to, but nothing major.

 

But do we need to call people "f***ING CRAZY". You are always talking about the FO takes a measured and considerate approach to making moves and you talk about subtleties, but you call someone who disagrees with you f***ING CRAZY? We can just debate the issues without this. Let me reiterate, I agree with you on this issue. I disagree with Pumpsie, but come on.

 

This board does degenerate at times to name calling, eh?

I realize that others feel differently and have good reasons for having those opinions, but I also have good reasons for having the opinion I have. The team has not won a postseason game in three years. Exactly how is it that we are a much better team that those three teams? There are more reasons too, and I plan to brow-beat everyone all season with them. We will see who is right in September.

[example1]

I agree with you that this team is a few tweaks from a very good club. I've been saying it all along. There are a few holes that need tending to, but nothing major.

 

But do we need to call people "f***ING CRAZY". You are always talking about the FO takes a measured and considerate approach to making moves and you talk about subtleties, but you call someone who disagrees with you f***ING CRAZY? We can just debate the issues without this. Let me reiterate, I agree with you on this issue. I disagree with Pumpsie, but come on.

 

Sorry Pumpsie.

[example1]

agreed' date=' just with a healthy Buchholz the pitching staff is better and with a healthy a Youkilis the offense improves. And reference the backend of the rotation, but Bard and whoever cannot be worse than Lackey,Wakefield and Miller. This team won 90 games with only 2/5 of their starting rotation performing up to standards and Losing there only power hitter from the rt side towards the end of the year. I explect 95-100 wins and a playoff spot.[/quote']

 

Crawford isn't going to hit as poorly as he did last year. There's no chance. If he produces close to his career norms then its like adding a significant FA acquisition to the team.

[example1]

This board does degenerate at times to name calling, eh?

I realize that others feel differently and have good reasons for having those opinions, but I also have good reasons for having the opinion I have. The team has not won a postseason game in three years. Exactly how is it that we are a much better team that those three teams? There are more reasons too, and I plan to brow-beat everyone all season with them. We will see who is right in September.

 

And you wonder why people respond strongly to you?

[User Name]

Crawford isn't going to hit as poorly as he did last year. There's no chance. If he produces close to his career norms then its like adding a significant FA acquisition to the team.

 

What about Jenks providing anything? If he's even remotely healthy, he should.

 

What about the young pitchers? Tazawa, Alex Wilson, Doubront? What if at least one of them comes up aces? Why can it happen for other teams but not the Sox?

 

What if Bard or Aceves is stellar in the rotation? What if both do?

 

What if the Sox sign Kuroda or Oswalt and Bard becomes a lights-out close, Aceves a good #5 and the signing pans out?

 

There are a lot of things that can go right for the Red Sox, but for some reason, everything HAS to go wrong.

[FredLynn]

What are your reasons for believing it?

 

What makes this team so much worse than the 2003, 2004, 2007 or 2008 teams that "competed" deep into the playoffs?

 

I don't think that winning 90 games next year represents contending. I think that 90 wins is a disappointment for this much talent.

 

The 2011 team could have started 4-8 (rather than 2-10) and would have won 92 games.

The 2011 team could have finished 10-17 (rather than 7-20) and would have won 93 games.

 

If the team repeats last year's production, but starts out 4-8 and finishes 10-17 (not out of the question for a team that led the AL East for much of the season) they are suddenly a 95 win team.

 

If they play at .500 during those stretches (6-6 and, say, 13-14) they win 100 games.

 

We're talking about a difference of 5 wins over 162 games here. Teams don't rebuild when they are that close on paper.

 

If they are 20 games out at the All-Star break then they will do some retooling, but this isn't a rebuilding offseason.

 

In a nutshell, here are some of the reasons I think we will contend for a playoff spot but not a ring next year:

 

1. We are not a better team in 2012 right now (things could change) than the team we had the previous three years that failed to win a single playoff game.

2. I do not expect Beckett to repeat his fine performance of 2010. I think he is a stubborn oaf who will clash with his manager.

3. I am suspicious about the health of Buchholtz. Back problems tend to be recurrent.

4. We have only three decent (ie no "aces") SP.

5. If we convert Aceves and Bard into SP they will not be throwing more than 140-160 innings next year-and that would complete the rape of the bullpen, having lost our closer.

6. Our pitching over the last three years has finished at #7, #8, and #9 in overall ERA in the AL. This year it is not better than last year in any significant way. Pitching wins rings, and we don't have pitching.

7. The clubhouse is a mess. It will take a year or two for Valentine to change the clubhouse culture. Team chemistry DOES count.

8. There is no financial flexibility available this year. Epstein left the team in a severe financial bind.

9. The Angels and other teams are improving and that will lead to increased competition for a playoff spot. We have done nothing this offseason because we can't do anything. See #8.

 

Those are some of the reasons. You might not agree with them, but they are valid reasons for some pessimism for this year.

[FredLynn]

Sorry Pumpsie.

 

No problem.

[FredLynn]

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[User Name]

I love ya too Pumpsie. Represent!

[mvp 78]

That's generational talent, and a ridiculously high standard to be held to.

 

Lester is a bit wild, but he does have cojones. At his best, he is a stopper, and overall, provides ace-level production, but seems kind of immature. I believe, for some reason, that he will react with a season for the ages after he was implicated in Chicken-and-Beer-gate.

 

I hope he pitches like a #1, still think the Sox need a top 10 MLB pitcher. Not sure if Lester is there. We'll see.

[mvp 78]

Crawford isn't going to hit as poorly as he did last year. There's no chance. If he produces close to his career norms then its like adding a significant FA acquisition to the team.

 

I feel like CC will improve and Papi will regress, making it a wash.

[User Name]

I hope he pitches like a #1' date=' still think the Sox need a top 10 MLB pitcher. Not sure if Lester is there. We'll see.[/quote']

 

Well Bucholz has the potential but hasn't put it all together (some guys take a lot longer than others, look at Cliff Lee) and you never know what Josh Beckett is going to show up. Last year's Beckett was a true ace. And you never know if he may show up again.

 

The beauty of the 2012 Red Sox lies in the fact that they're such a huge enigma.

[FredLynn]

Well Bucholz has the potential but hasn't put it all together (some guys take a lot longer than others, look at Cliff Lee) and you never know what Josh Beckett is going to show up. Last year's Beckett was a true ace. And you never know if he may show up again.

 

The beauty of the 2012 Red Sox lies in the fact that they're such a huge enigma.

 

This is not a "beautiful" team by any stretch of the imagination. Look at how Beckett responded to his new boss the very first time Valentine called him: he was "displeased" with the criticism leveled at him for taking so long in between pitches-instead of accepting it as something his new boss felt he had to work on to improve his performance. Beckett is a stubborn oaf...not beautiful at all. There are other prima donna types (interspersed with class acts like Pedroia), but overall this is not yet a truly professional team that plays the game right.

Maybe that will change over the next few years.

[Interestedobserver]

Crawford isn't going to hit as poorly as he did last year. There's no chance. If he produces close to his career norms then its like adding a significant FA acquisition to the team.

 

 

Sometimes guys just lose it. Although it’s more likely he reverts to a 4.0 WAR player. The aberration was 2010.

[FredLynn]

Sometimes guys just lose it. Although it’s more likely he reverts to a 4.0 WAR player. The aberration was 2010.

 

Its likely that he will improve significantly. He is too good an athlete and works too hard for that not to happen. I think he was taken aback by some of the BS that was going on in the clubhouse this year.

If however he has a repeat performance in 2012 then we can add him to the long long list of mistakes that Epstein committed while he was here.

[User Name]

This is not a "beautiful" team by any stretch of the imagination. Look at how Beckett responded to his new boss the very first time Valentine called him: he was "displeased" with the criticism leveled at him for taking so long in between pitches-instead of accepting it as something his new boss felt he had to work on to improve his performance. Beckett is a stubborn oaf...not beautiful at all. There are other prima donna types (interspersed with class acts like Pedroia), but overall this is not yet a truly professional team that plays the game right.

Maybe that will change over the next few years.

 

You need to improve your reading comprehension.

 

I didn't say the Red Sox were a beautiful team. I said i found the enigmatic qualities of the team to be beautiful. And that's a personal thing. I apologize if it directly contradicts you personal bitching time.

[iortiz]

Well, a lot of "ifs" "maybes" and "good wishes" lately. I don't want to begin and face the 2012 season with those assumptions. I think, nobody is comfortable with our current roster. We all want a couple of extra moves. Yes, This offseason ain't over.

 

Hopefully, we can get at least another SP.

 

We'll see.

[example1]

Beckett may be stubborn, but he has cajones. Those massive balls were on display when he single handedly pitched the Marlins into a WS victory and in 2007 when he did it again for the Sox. Talk s*** about him if you want but what he lacks on consistency he makes up in guts and big game ability.

 

Pumps, most of the reasons you cited don't hold water for me. If the team is good enough to make the playoffs then they are very very close to being a WS team. Look at the teams that make runs in the playoffs. They are rarely the best team on paper.

 

As for not being better than the last 3 years I don't get that. One could argue that the 2011 team was better with healthy pitching and papelbon, but team that add Adrian Gonzalez and Crawford get better. The 09 and 10 Sox weren't as good IMO.

[RonVermette]

One of the 2 pitchers likely acquired before spring training is probably going to be able to compete with Bard & Aceves for a starting position.

Since there's no way of knowing who will be healthy next year, there's really no way of knowing if we'll be in contention.

[a700hitter]

Beckett may be stubborn, but he has cajones. Those massive balls were on display when he single handedly pitched the Marlins into a WS victory and in 2007 when he did it again for the Sox. Talk s*** about him if you want but what he lacks on consistency he makes up in guts and big game ability.

 

Pumps, most of the reasons you cited don't hold water for me. If the team is good enough to make the playoffs then they are very very close to being a WS team. Look at the teams that make runs in the playoffs. They are rarely the best team on paper.

 

As for not being better than the last 3 years I don't get that. One could argue that the 2011 team was better with healthy pitching and papelbon, but team that add Adrian Gonzalez and Crawford get better. The 09 and 10 Sox weren't as good IMO.

There many times when this is not true. Some teams that make the playoffs are not very close to the caliber needed to champions. I'm not saying that will be the case with the Red Sox in 2012. If the few holes get plugged, they could be very good.

[FredLynn]

Beckett may be stubborn, but he has cajones. Those massive balls were on display when he single handedly pitched the Marlins into a WS victory and in 2007 when he did it again for the Sox. Talk s*** about him if you want but what he lacks on consistency he makes up in guts and big game ability.

 

Pumps, most of the reasons you cited don't hold water for me. If the team is good enough to make the playoffs then they are very very close to being a WS team. Look at the teams that make runs in the playoffs. They are rarely the best team on paper.

 

As for not being better than the last 3 years I don't get that. One could argue that the 2011 team was better with healthy pitching and papelbon, but team that add Adrian Gonzalez and Crawford get better. The 09 and 10 Sox weren't as good IMO.

 

That was Beckett in 2007. That was four years ago. He has had an up and down career with the Red Sox. Last year was certainly an up year; I am not expecting another one like it this year. Yeah, he has guts, but he is also stubborn and recalcitrant to valid criticism. I think we would be better off with someone perhaps a little less talented but with a better clubhouse personality.

What have we done to improve our pitching so that we do not finish in the middle of the AL like we did for the past three years? Well, we lost Papelbon, so thats a minus. Of course, we also lost Lackey and thats a plus no matter who fills in for him. I just don't see how we have improved our pitching-always our Achilles tendon since 2007-enough to make a run for a ring. Our problem was never scoring enough runs; we WILL score runs. But bashing your way through a season only gets you so far. You need good to great pitching to win a ring.

How have we improved in that arena?

[FredLynn]

You need to improve your reading comprehension.

 

I didn't say the Red Sox were a beautiful team. I said i found the enigmatic qualities of the team to be beautiful. And that's a personal thing. I apologize if it directly contradicts you personal bitching time.

 

I comprehend just fine.

It is the jibberish you write that needs improvement.

[User Name]

I comprehend just fine.

It is the jibberish you write that needs improvement.

 

This confirms the idea that you were asleep during the portion of school where they thought reading comprehension.

[User Name]

The playoffs are a craspshoot. Any team that gets in it can win it. The problem is getting there.

[FredLynn]

This confirms the idea that you were asleep during the portion of school where they thought reading comprehension.

 

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt279/MyStiCaLmOoNs30/idiot.jpg

[iortiz]

There many times when this is not true. Some teams that make the playoffs are not very close to the caliber needed to champions. I'm not saying that will be the case with the Red Sox in 2012. If the few holes get plugged' date=' they could be very good.[/quote']

 

I was about to say the same.

 

If we bring at least another SP, IMO we could be a PO contender team, but I wouldn't be that sure to label us as a WS contender team. We would need a couple of extra BPs arms, pitching depth and a RF OF like Beltran as well in order to run as a serious WS contender team IMO.

[FredLynn]

I was about to say the same.

 

If we bring at least another SP, IMO we could be a PO contender team, but I wouldn't be that sure to label us as a WS contender team. We would need a couple of extra BPs arms, pitching depth and a RF OF like Beltran as well in order to run as a WS contender team IMO.

 

Who is available and affordable to bring in as a decent SP? Who is the RHH OF we can afford that is available? I would have liked Cuddyer; he is gone now, as is Beltran. Where are these good bullpen arms? Miller and Jenks are on the team; do you think they will help get us out of the middle of the AL pitching pack?

Sure, we will probably bash our way into playoff contention then have a quick exit (again) IF we make it. Thats realistic. More than that IMO is a pipe dream as things now stand