Mike Cameron signs with Red Sox

[Rdsxmbnt]

It took all of four posts for you to go from 30% to 60-70%. I love it.

 

Only to ORS would one team calling the other the Evil Empire be called stating reality.

 

You didn't comprehend that correctly. Currently the Red Sox have spend lets say 30% of that amount. In no universe is 112mil comparable to 423mil. Now if the Sox had spent lets say 60% or 250mil then MAYBE you could start to compare the two offseasons. However, at the current moment barring a Tex-like deal by the Red Sox, that notion is completely ridiculous.

[yankees228]

I don't think Gom was ever comparing the two off-seasons. All he's saying, correctly or incorrectly, is that he doesn't think a team should "cry poverty" when it is capable of this type of financial might.

[Dojji]

Actually "this type of financial might" happens pretty much all the time. But most of the teams capable of it aren't compering directly with the $250M/year monster for a playoff spot.

 

If we were in any other division, we'd have exactly the lack of excuse you want to accuse us of, but all the financial might in the world isn't important if your biggest competitor is even mightier.

[yankees228]

Actually "this type of financial might" happens pretty much all the time. But most of the teams capable of it aren't compering directly with the $250M/year monster for a playoff spot.

 

If we were in any other division, we'd have exactly the lack of excuse you want to accuse us of, but all the financial might in the world isn't important if your biggest competitor is even mightier.

 

Actually, I'm not accusing the Red Sox of anything. Anytime I've discussed payroll, it has only be in relation to the Yankees, not the Red Sox. Nothing about the Red Sox bothers me.

[a700hitter]

I don't know what they were thinking signing this guy for 2 year/$16 million. I don't see the value. He's gonna make the Nation nuts as he swings at air and consistently gets overmatched by even average pitchers. I really don't like this. I don't think they spent this much money for him to platoon the 4th OF spot. Goodbye Bay and Boras shouldn't even bother to call. At 37, he doesn't go get the ball like he once did, although he is a big defensive upgrade over Bay.

[example1]

Gom is full of it.

 

Nobody is crying poverty, though that is his favorite phrase. It's a strawman, but we all buy it.

 

ORS is right. Saying that there are things the Sox cannot do because they don't have the financial resources of the Yankees is not the same as saying the Sox can't do anything.

[ehaz]

Just because Cameron may play CF, doesn't mean Jacoby would be traded. He would be moved to LF. No way they trade their starting centerfielder, leadoff hitter, and stolen base threat just because they signed Cameron - in addition to Buchholz. They can stick Cameron in left too.

 

I'm assuming it's Ellsbury in CF and Cameron/Hermida in LF. I don't know if they would trust Hermida being an everyday player.

 

Unless the Sox can turn Jacoby/Kelly/B Prospect into Adrian, I don't see him being traded.

 

With that being said, an OF defense of Cameron, Ellsbury, and Drew is unbelievable.

Why would one of the top 3 center fielders in the game move to left for Ellsbury? Ellsbury's had a hard time judging balls out there, if anything Cameron should be our starting center fielder and Ellsbury should learn and watch from him in left for a year or two.

[ehaz]

I don't know what they were thinking signing this guy for 2 year/$16 million. I don't see the value. He's gonna make the Nation nuts as he swings at air and consistently gets overmatched by even average pitchers. I really don't like this. I don't think they spent this much money for him to platoon the 4th OF spot. Goodbye Bay and Boras shouldn't even bother to call. At 37' date=' he doesn't go get the ball like he once did, although he is a big defensive upgrade over Bay.[/quote']

Cameron might be 37, but he plays center field like he's 20. If you actually looked at stats instead of giving a personal opinion, you'd realize that 3 out of the last 4 years, he's had an OPS over .800. And he's going to play in Fenway.

[Tyler Durden]

Carlos Beltran is probably the best CF in the game.... Cameron in fact moved to RF when Beltran came to the Mets, or he went to RF when he came to the Mets becaue Beltran is in CF.

[ORS]

I don't think Gom was ever comparing the two off-seasons. All he's saying' date=' correctly or incorrectly, is that he doesn't think a team should "cry poverty" when it is capable of this type of financial might.[/quote']

That's what he's saying now. It started as a request to stop mentioning Yankee payroll. From there he equates bringing it up to crying, and that's where his train derails.

[example1]

I don't know what they were thinking signing this guy for 2 year/$16 million. I don't see the value. He's gonna make the Nation nuts as he swings at air and consistently gets overmatched by even average pitchers. I really don't like this. I don't think they spent this much money for him to platoon the 4th OF spot. Goodbye Bay and Boras shouldn't even bother to call. At 37' date=' he doesn't go get the ball like he once did, although he is a big defensive upgrade over Bay.[/quote']

 

He's a great defensive player. He's hit 20+ HR the last 4 seasons. He's had more than 4 WAR in 3 of the past 4 seasons. Bay hasn't been worth more than 4 the past 3 years.

 

I wouldn't be shocked if the Sox moved Ellsbury to LF and put Cameron in CF. He's got a better arm and rates better as a CF. Ellsbury in LF is a huge defensive boost. Cameron would be riskier in LF (IMO).

 

I actually like this move. Short term, short money. I would prefer Holliday but I would ACTUALLY prefer that they spend the 20+m it will take to sign him to go toward someone like Mauer next year. That may be a pipedream, butwe will see.

[Gom]

I don't think Gom was ever comparing the two off-seasons. All he's saying' date=' correctly or incorrectly, is that he doesn't think a team should "cry poverty" when it is capable of this type of financial might.[/quote']

 

Also, keep in mind, the Yankees had shed a lot of payroll. The salaries they picked up basically washed the ones they dropped. This is not true of the Red Sox this year.

[a700hitter]

Cameron might be 37' date=' but he plays center field like he's 20. If you actually look at stats instead of giving a personal opinion, you'd realize that 3 out of the last 4 years, he's had an OPS over .800. And he's going to play in Fenway.[/quote']When I am at the game groaning about him striking out on three pitches with a runner on 3rd and less than two outs, I'm not looking at the stats. To me he is a decent compiler of stats year after year, but you'll see what i mean soon enough. As for his fielding, I haven't checked the zone rating etc., but he doesn't get after it like he used to.

[MNSoxChief102]

Cameron might be 37' date=' but he plays center field like he's 20. If you actually look at stats instead of giving a personal opinion, you'd realize that 3 out of the last 4 years, he's had an OPS over .800. And he's going to play in Fenway.[/quote']

 

Exactly. As I said before, Cameron isn't a great hitter but he does have good power to left and can spray line drives with some consistency. He will strikeout enough to make us cringe, but no more than Bay did last season. And his glove is way better than Bay's to make up for it.

 

Not a flashy move, but one that will help us be a better overall team next year and not burden us with a long term deal when our young guns get to the bigs.

[Dojji]

The way I envision Cameron's role, is not as a platoon LF. That WOULD be ridiculous. I see him as a platoon for LF, RF, and CF as needed, since we have LHH's in all three positions. Now most of the time he'd be replacing in LF, because Hermida's our weakest link right now, but that could change, and I think we'll see Cameron pretty much everywhere he can play next year -- including DH for that matter.

[yankees228]

Also' date=' keep in mind, the Yankees had shed a lot of payroll. The salaries they picked up basically washed the ones they dropped. This is not true of the Red Sox this year.[/quote']

 

Well, some people choose to look at it that way, while others don't. Those who don't, don't really care that the Yankees' payroll didn't fluctuate much between 2008 and 2009, because what they see is all that money being tied up long term. While this is true, and should be acknowledged, what I think people are overlooking is how that offseason is going to effect other off-seasons. The Yankees spent all that money on those players because they all happened to be available in one offseason, merely a coincidence, and the Yankees wanted all three of them. Because of that, in my opinion, you will see them spend significantly less over the coming off-seasons, because they made their one enormous splash. Already this year, judging by their words and actions, they're more money conscious than most of us expected.

[example1]

Cameron and Curtis Granderson's values have been much closer than most people would think.

 

Check out fangraphs, it's true.

[yankees228]

Cameron and Curtis Granderson's values have been much closer than most people would think.

 

Check out fangraphs, it's true.

 

This is true, but you also have to consider the ages and the ceilings of both players. Both teams got what they were looking for. The Yankees sought a long term solution and they got that. The Red Sox sought a short term solution and they got that.

[example1]

When I am at the game groaning about him striking out on three pitches with a runner on 3rd and less than two outs' date=' I'm not looking at the stats. To me he is a decent compiler of stats year after year, but you'll see what i mean soon enough. As for his fielding, I haven't checked the zone rating etc., but he doesn't get after it like he used to.[/quote']

 

Will you groan about him making nice catches or good throws? How about securing the OF defense for what is now the best pitching staff in baseball? Seems like a very reasonable move to me, especially if they follow it with a good corner IF.

[Gom]

That's what he's saying now. It started as a request to stop mentioning Yankee payroll. From there he equates bringing it up to crying' date=' and that's where his train derails.[/quote']

 

Funny how the Sox can spend $100 million in a day, but complain that the Yankees outbid them by 10 million last year for a player.

 

What I'm saying is that their cries of poverty and unfair economic structure inherent in baseball is hypocritical when they make the splash they did this year. I've never denied the Red Sox claim that the Yankees operate at a higher budget then the Sox do, or any other team..but that if there is a team that can come close, it's the Sox...and they CHOOSE not to, not that they are UNABLE to do so. The Sox didn't really shed payroll this year...they didn't add any new seats...they didn't sign a new media deal...they had this opportunity last year and chose not to use it...this year they did. So their cries last year...well...if it smells like ********...

[MNSoxChief102]

Here's a great article comparing Bay and Cameron at FanGraphs...

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/bay-vs-cameron

 

Cameron has been worth +29.6 wins, or about the same as David Ortiz, Aramis Ramirez, and Jim Thome

 

That says it all for me... 29.6 is ridiculous and at $7-8 million a season, he's a steal

[example1]

This is true' date=' but you also have to consider the ages and the ceilings of both players. Both teams got what they were looking for. The Yankees sought a long term solution and they got that. The Red Sox sought a short term solution and they got that.[/quote']

 

So... good moves for both teams then? Cameron won't limit this team's flexibility moving forward. He "only" cost them money. He's a nice alternative to a move like the Granderson move.

 

I wasn't poo-pooing the Granderson move, merely stating that the players produce similarily.

[yankees228]

So... good moves for both teams then? Cameron won't limit this team's flexibility moving forward. He "only" cost them money. He's a nice alternative to a move like the Granderson move.

 

I wasn't poo-pooing the Granderson move, merely stating that the players produce similarily.

 

Absolutely, I was agreeing with you, just sharing some of my own thoughts.

[sniper3177]

why did the sox waste money on Cameron

[yeszir]

why did the sox waste money on Cameron

 

Welcome?

[Gom]

Here's a great article comparing Bay and Cameron at FanGraphs...

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/bay-vs-cameron

 

 

 

That says it all for me... 29.6 is ridiculous and at $7-8 million a season, he's a steal

 

This is inherently based on the fact that UZR/150 is a valid statistical model, which I completely disagree with.

 

If you believe that UZR is an accurate model, then yes, it would make sense. If you don't, as I do not, then Cameron's value drops off the face of a cliff. I do not believe a player's defensive value is what you see in this statistical model. Far from it. Which is why I believe that the Cameron deal is a big mistake for the Red Sox for two reasons.

 

1) The Red Sox FO over-value his defense.

2) This will most likely keep them from getting a big bat in the OF.

[ORS]

Funny how the Sox can spend $100 million in a day, but complain that the Yankees outbid them by 10 million last year for a player.

 

What I'm saying is that their cries of poverty and unfair economic structure inherent in baseball is hypocritical when they make the splash they did this year. I've never denied the Red Sox claim that the Yankees operate at a higher budget then the Sox do, or any other team..but that if there is a team that can come close, it's the Sox...and they CHOOSE not to, not that they are UNABLE to do so. The Sox didn't really shed payroll this year...they didn't add any new seats...they didn't sign a new media deal...they had this opportunity last year and chose not to use it...this year they did. So their cries last year...well...if it smells like ********...

Well, you should know the smell of it, it's everything you post.

 

The rest: made up babble.

 

Respond however you like, I'm done with this. You are making things up. I've cautioned you about the error of doing this, and you make more things up to support the made up s***. You are a walking, talking strawman factory.

[Rdsxmbnt]

.250/.342/.452/.795 vs. .249/.327/.453/.780

seem pretty similar offensively too

[Cocos Disciples]

This is inherently based on the fact that UZR/150 is a valid statistical model, which I completely disagree with.

 

If you believe that UZR is an accurate model, then yes, it would make sense. If you don't, as I do not, then Cameron's value drops off the face of a cliff. I do not believe a player's defensive value is what you see in this statistical model. Far from it. Which is why I believe that the Cameron deal is a big mistake for the Red Sox for two reasons.

 

1) The Red Sox FO over-value his defense.

2) This will most likely keep them from getting a big bat in the OF.

 

The 29.6 is not referring to UZR, it's referring to WAR.

[yankees228]

The 29.6 is not referring to UZR' date=' it's referring to WAR.[/quote']

 

Right, but WAR has a defensive component, one that Gom does not find valid. If someone was not to trust UZR/150, then they don't trust WAR, or they have to look at it without the defensive component.