Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[yankees228]

I don't think you can always put it on the coaching staff either. Bottom line' date=' if he clears his head and concentrates in the game, he's an elite two-way player at the four spot, meanwhile he's a very very good hitter and around league average defender.[/quote']

 

I agree. My only point of contention is that I think your criticisms would have been more warranted prior to this year. Some of it is still there, but I think he did a good job cleaning up those mental errors.

 

Regardless, we both have our opinions, and I don't think there is a significant difference between either one. Agree to disagree on the gap, and we'll see how it plays out in the coming years.

[BSN07]

The Red Sox discussed a Curtis Granderson trade with the Tigers, according to Amalie Benjamin of the Boston Globe. Apparently, the Tigers wanted Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury (Michael Silverman reporting).

 

What? Is the Tigers GM on meth?

[bsox0407]

As stated before' date=' the only positions where i don't trust UZR by itself are SS and 1B, confidentially, Gom thinks that because RF better coincides with his "opinion" it's the better stat. Absolutely hilarious.[/quote']

 

Its alright the fat bald guy who blocks his view does not hinder his ability to get it right. Also when i go to the game i never look at how a player gets his jump on the ball. I kinda watch the batter/ ball.

[bsox0407]

What? Is the Tigers GM on meth?

 

No just crack.

[ORS]

You realize that you're completely putting words in a lot of people's mouths' date=' and making a ton of assumptions about how they view these statistics...[/quote']

This is the Gom Special. Set up a false opponent that is easy to ridicule, carry on with the predictable ridiculing, declare victory....wash, rinse, repeat. It's the life cycle of every argument with Gom.

[bsox0407]

This is the Gom Special. Set up a false opponent that is easy to ridicule' date=' carry on with the predictable ridiculing, declare victory....wash, rinse, repeat. It's the life cycle of every argument with Gom.[/quote']

 

Can i get a side of Fries.:lol:

[BigPapiEnFuego]

Theo is on the Hot Stove Report saying "forget about the Yankees." "We are going to do our thing." He said that they are not close to doing anything big' date=' and that they may not do anything big. He says their goal is not to make a big splash, but to "build a healthy organization." He's calling this a "bridge season." f*** that. This sounds like Scutaro may be it for us. Screw that. IMO, they will not make the playoffs with the current squad. He estimates that the chances of a major move is less than 50/50. I didn't like anything that I just heard.[/quote']

 

This pisses me off. He's become a real bitch as of late.

[Emmz]

I saw Gary Mathews Jr. make a spectacular play once. Yeah, he's an AMAZING outfielder, I'll tell ya

[ORS]

Ok...I should just sit back and watch. Have at it boys.

 

I've watched Tex all season, I see about 140 games, of which 40 are live. His range is amazing. More than Tino, and every bit as good as Don Mattingly.

"Amazing"

 

This is a very strong descriptive word. Unfortunately, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating recognition of league average for a 1B. And, as far as watching the games goes, to my eye, Teixeira has excellent reflexes, and he's tall, so when he lays out he covers some ground and makes a bunch of those plays, but I'm not impressed when he has to move his feet, kind of like Lowell. Given the run value of a missed play, it's not surprising his range scores a little below average (or a little above in other years).

 

EDIT: Still waiting for the critique of Range Factor. I figure a pariah of original thought could come up with the answer in less than 5 minutes. Tick, tock, tick, tock.....still waiting.

[Gom]

I saw Gary Mathews Jr. make a spectacular play once. Yeah' date=' he's an AMAZING outfielder, I'll tell ya[/quote']

 

Actually, he is. Great range, ok arm.

 

"Amazing"

 

This is a very strong descriptive word. Unfortunately, it doesn't get you any closer to demonstrating recognition of league average for a 1B. And, as far as watching the games goes, to my eye, Teixeira has excellent reflexes, and he's tall, so when he lays out he covers some ground and makes a bunch of those plays, but I'm not impressed when he has to move his feet, kind of like Lowell. Given the run value of a missed play, it's not surprising his range scores a little below average (or a little above in other years).

 

So you're saying is that he is below average overall as compared to an average firstbasemen defensively?

 

So ends the debate. Thank you.

[bsox0407]

I saw Gary Mathews Jr. make a spectacular play once. Yeah' date=' he's an AMAZING outfielder, I'll tell ya[/quote']

 

I saw Michael Coleman make a diving catch he is so much better than Mattews.

[Dipre]

Actually' date=' he is. Great range, ok arm.[/i']

 

/endiscussion.

[Gom]

I saw Michael Coleman make a diving catch he is so much better than Mattews.

 

Actually, coming from you, I wouldn't be surprised. You really haven't shown that you know baseball at all.

[Emmz]

LOL!

 

Are you serious Gom?

 

Check again plz

[Emmz]

Actually' date=' coming from you, I wouldn't be surprised. You really haven't shown that you know baseball at all.[/quote']

 

Dude, you just said Gary Mathews was a good outfielder. That takes everything away from your argument.

[Emmz]

/endiscussion.

 

This.

[bsox0407]

Actually' date=' coming from you, I wouldn't be surprised. You really haven't shown that you know baseball at all.[/quote']

 

Sarcasm is not one of your strong points yet what really is your strong point oh yeah using your opinion to bash the real facts.

[Emmz]

......

 

You're being ridiculous. He's one of the worst outfielders in the game ever since he was caught doping.

[Gom]

Gom, they are all flawed.

 

Again, what is the main flaw of RF? Come on, anyone with a brain should be able to determine this within 5 minutes of looking at how it measures defense. I did, and my criticism was confirmed in subsequent reading about it.

 

Fine. They are all flawed. f***ing thank you. So the enthusiasm for their accuracy should be tempered, and eyes-on-scouting, i.e., should be relied on more. They are more flawed than offensive or pitching metrics. I don't think anyone can argue this point.

 

As I've said all along, a combination of watching the games and statistical analysis paints the best picture. Otherwise, teams wouldn't hire sabermetricians and scouts, it would be one or the other.

 

The going trend is that teams UNDERvalued defenses recently. Which is why you're seeing teams go with defensive players more often at the expense of one dimensional hitters. I actually think we value hitting too much and not defense enough. However, I haven't seen a defensive metric I really liked. I never bought into Moneyball, but I'm sure if I was here when it came out, people would have been making the same claims of "watching the gamezz".

 

Folks, if you agree with ORS that the defensive metrics are flawed, and my contention that they are not as advanced as offensive or pitching statistics, please don't quote them as if they are the final word.

 

Back to the hot stove, if you all don't mind. Who has SEEN enough of Granderson to give me his take on a scouting report. I can see he can't hit lefties, I'm talking about defense.

[yeszir]

Move UZR discussion to a UZR thread please. Keep hot stove discussion here. Don't make me split posts that come after this one.

[Dipre]

Move UZR discussion to a UZR thread please. Keep hot stove discussion here. Don't make me split posts that come after this one.

 

Splitting them might be a good idea, yeszir.

[yeszir]

Move UZR discussion to a UZR thread please. Keep hot stove discussion here. Don't make me split posts that come after this one.

 

Splitting them might be a good idea' date=' yeszir.[/quote']

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/general-baseball-forum/13567-uzr-statistic.html

[example1]

Theo is on the Hot Stove Report saying "forget about the Yankees." "We are going to do our thing." He said that they are not close to doing anything big' date=' and that they may not do anything big. He says their goal is not to make a big splash, but to "build a healthy organization." [/quote']

 

Sounds reasonable so far.

 

He's calling this a "bridge season." f*** that.

 

What do you suggest they do?

 

This sounds like Scutaro may be it for us. Screw that. IMO, they will not make the playoffs with the current squad.

 

Stop. Please. Just stop.

 

Your lack of any faith, any inkling of trust for a GM who has taken this team farther than any in your lifetime is shocking. Do you really think that this is the team the Sox go into 2010 with?

 

How helpful has it been historically for the Sox to have rumors flying all over the place about their potential moves? In my opinion, it hasn't been useful. How useful a negotiating position would it be if everyone thought Theo desperately wanted to trade for a huge name?

 

Why should he show his cards to the MLB Network, or Scott Boras or you?

 

We've heard everything, from "Theo desperately wants Adrian Gonzalez or Felix Hernandez" to "Theo is planning on standing pat with his current team and waiting for next year". Now, Theo says "there's a 50/50 chance" for a big move. Sounds like a pretty standard response to me...

 

I would be very excited if Rafael Soriano ended up on this team for minimal young trade pieces.

[Gom]

I find it very hard to believe that the Sox will stand pat. If the Red Sox do not come up with an impact bat to take the place of Bay, this team will be fighting for their wild card lives.

[a700hitter]

=What do you suggest they do?

You were the one with the boner in August and September about king Felix. Weren't you also promoting the acquisition of Adrian Gonzalez? Now you are okay with staying pat?

 

Stop. Please. Just stop.

 

Your lack of any faith, any inkling of trust for a GM who has taken this team farther than any in your lifetime is shocking. Do you really think that this is the team the Sox go into 2010 with?

What does this have to do with having faith in Theo? I am just reporting what he said, which is not very encouraging if we are expecting a big deal at these meetings. Unlike you, I do not try to figure out what he is thinking. I don't find his words encouraging. Is he playing possum? I hope so, but if he is not, I don't expect the team will have a chance of catching or beating the Yanks in 2010.

 

We've heard everything, from "Theo desperately wants Adrian Gonzalez or Felix Hernandez" to "Theo is planning on standing pat with his current team and waiting for next year". Now, Theo says "there's a 50/50 chance" for a big move. Sounds like a pretty standard response to me...

He said less than 50/50.

[Wells]

Theo is on the Hot Stove Report saying "forget about the Yankees." "We are going to do our thing." He said that they are not close to doing anything big' date=' and that they may not do anything big. He says their goal is not to make a big splash, but to "build a healthy organization." He's calling this a "bridge season." f*** that. This sounds like Scutaro may be it for us. Screw that. IMO, they will not make the playoffs with the current squad. He estimates that the chances of a major move is less than 50/50. I didn't like anything that I just heard.[/quote']

 

While I think there'll be more moves made I think Theo is onto something here.. really the thing to do at this point is re-sign Bay, make a few smaller moves, give up nobody important in the farm and get ready for 2011.. I've said this a number of times (about this not being a "big splash" offseason) and my opinion remains the same.. if it means a stronger team in 2011 and beyond with a somewhat contender for 2010 I will be fine with it.. I just don't see this offseason as a good enough one to give up a lot for a little.. maybe it'll weed out some of those pink hatters too.

[Gom]

The thing is this. The Angels, Cardinals, Mariners and Red Sox are in the market for Holliday and Bay. The Mariners are a bit of a longshot, but one of those teams will be left holding nothing.

 

I'm seeing it as a battle between the Sox and Angels for Bay, and the Cardinals and Sox for Holliday.

 

Keep in mind, the Yankees are lurking. If Holliday is signed for 18 per, with Granderson, the Yankees have actually brought payroll down from Matsui and Damon.

[riverside sluggers]

Im not optimistic about the Sox signing either Bay or Holliday. Theyll likely make a trade for a player who would platoon with Jeremy Hermida

[bsox0407]

The thing is this. The Angels, Cardinals, Mariners and Red Sox are in the market for Holliday and Bay. The Mariners are a bit of a longshot, but one of those teams will be left holding nothing.

 

I'm seeing it as a battle between the Sox and Angels for Bay, and the Cardinals and Sox for Holliday.

 

Keep in mind, the Yankees are lurking. If Holliday is signed for 18 per, with Granderson, the Yankees have actually brought payroll down from Matsui and Damon.

 

Soscia said that the angels are a long shot.

[example1]

You were the one with the boner in August and September about king Felix. Weren't you also promoting the acquisition of Adrian Gonzalez? Now you are okay with staying pat?

 

I'm not okay with them staying pat. I've laid out pretty clearly what I want them to do (note: it doesn't assume that Felix is an option):

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/13354-official-2009-2010-hot-stove-season-thread-34.html#post499902

 

1. Sign Matt Holliday

2. Continue building the bullpen

3. Trade for Roy Halladay (ideally without Buchholz*, Iglesias, Tazawa or Westmoreland)

4. Be aggressive on Aroldis Chapman

 

That's not standing pat.

 

Unlike you, I do not try to figure out what he is thinking. I don't find his words encouraging. Is he playing possum? I hope so, but if he is not, I don't expect the team will have a chance of catching or beating the Yanks in 2010.

 

I don't think there's any hidden messages in Theo's public statements. Make the playoffs nearly every year and hope either someone else beats the Yankees, or that they get lucky and beat the Yankees--pretty much the same goal as all the rest of the good teams in the AL. That may not be encouraging, but it is consistent and logical.